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Old 27th April 2011, 11:55   #76
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
The Jazz is an International offering. It's sold across the globe as the 'Fit', in markets like US, China etc; and as the Jazz in Europe, Middle-East, Australia, etc. The City, on the other hand, was specifically designed for developing markets like the Thai market and the Indian market.

EDIT: There is, in fact, a 1.6 litre iVtec lump (R16A1), but that is found in the 8th gen Civic. It's probably found in the base Civic. if I'm not wrong, it was sold in South-East Asian Markets.
Jazz a.k.a Fit in USA has the same 1.5L engine. It costs $15000 and is priced similar to corolla and civic. Still Fit is the largest selling hatchback in USA and it tears apart competition from other hatches. Economics doesn't make sense for them to launch city in USA. Similarly, the company men must be fighting it out in their board rooms about pricing for city and jazz in India since it could eat into each other sales which doesn't happen in USA even though civic and fit prices are 'almost' same.

1.6L R16A1 is no longer in production. Its replaced by 1.5L mill. It used to be available 3-4 years back. It was a destroked R18 block which was used in Turkey for tax purpose. They have a detuned version of 1.8L now which is available in India also along with other south-east markets. And if i remember correctly, they introduced i-Vtec with 1.8 Block which again was based on 1.7L Sohc Vtec known as D17A. Before that it was just Vtec.

I could be wrong though. Experts can correct me.
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Old 27th April 2011, 12:17   #77
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
Jazz a.k.a Fit in USA has the same 1.5L engine. It costs $15000 and is priced similar to corolla and civic. Still Fit is the largest selling hatchback in USA and it tears apart competition from other hatches. Economics doesn't make sense for them to launch city in USA. Similarly, the company men must be fighting it out in their board rooms about pricing for city and jazz in India since it could eat into each other sales which doesn't happen in USA even though civic and fit prices are 'almost' same.
You're right.

I'm not disputing that. In fact, in one of my earlier posts, I had mentioned that the Jazz is sold as the 'Fit' in US and in China. The City was never meant for markets other than the (developing) South-East-Asian markets, eg. India, Thailand, etc. I'm sorry, but was I not clear enough?

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Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
1.6L R16A1 is no longer in production. Its replaced by 1.5L mill. It used to be available 3-4 years back. It was a destroked R18 block which was used in Turkey for tax purpose. They have a detuned version of 1.8L now which is available in India also along with other south-east markets. And if i remember correctly, they introduced i-Vtec with 1.8 Block which again was based on 1.7L Sohc Vtec known as D17A. Before that it was just Vtec.

I could be wrong though. Experts can correct me.
As far as I know, the Civic sold in the North American market is still available with the R16A1 engine. Production began in 2007. But with the introduction of the new 9th Gen Civic, this engine might be phased out now, along with the 8th gen Civic.

The 1.5 mill was seen in the Jazz only for the North American market and the 1.2 and 1.3 mills were seen in the Jazz/Fit in European markets and in Asian markets, apart from the 1.5 mill, of course.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 27th April 2011 at 12:22.
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Old 27th April 2011, 12:27   #78
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Originally Posted by pratim View Post
d. I am not very sure about this, but, a proper sedan will have less body roll and better handling compared to its hatchback sibling, both built on the same platform.
I think itís the other way. The hatch variant should be the better handler, compared to the sedan version on the same platform.

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Originally Posted by pratim View Post
e. Visual appeal: City is more aggressive where Jazz is suave and may be a little blander on the outside. So, folks who are drawn to a car by its looks first, City will win their heart.
Personally I feel the Jazz is a better looking number. That said, the current City is a sufficiently good looking car. No wonder, the design cues are carried on to the upcoming Civic.

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The moot point is: both will sell side by side, 1.5 City trumping the 1.5 Jazz in sales volumes.
Very true! Mainly because of our affinity towards sedans.

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
The Jazz and the City, actually, aren't very different. In fact, the City is a re-skinned and 'boot-ed' Jazz. Much like the Fiat Linea and the Punto. There is a fine line in terms of difference when you talk about both cars' handling characteristics as well. After all, they're based on the same chassis.
Well, this is true for the previous generation. The current generation Jazz and City are on the same platform, but built as entirely different cars. Hence the City now looks like a more complete sedan, rather than a hatch after cosmetic surgery.

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
The Jazz is an International offering. It's sold across the globe as the 'Fit', in markets like US, China etc; and as the Jazz in Europe, Middle-East, Australia, etc. The City, on the other hand, was specifically designed for developing markets like the Thai market and the Indian market.
Yes, the Jazz /Fit is an international offering, whereas is the City is more for the boot-friendly markets. And the fact is, in many of these markets, the Jazz / Fit is more popular albeit having a higher price tag compared to the City.


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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
There is, in fact, a 1.6 litre iVtec lump (R16A1), but that is found in the 8th gen Civic. It's probably found in the base Civic. if I'm not wrong, it was sold in South-East Asian Markets.
Thatís correct. We have 1.6L Civic available here in Singapore, along with the 1.8 and 2.0 motors. Maybe the 1.6 is to combat the Corolla 1.6. Strangely, even though the 1.6 is the most popular in the Corolla lineup, itís the 1.8 which does bulk of the business for the Civic.

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Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
To conclude, if you are not image conscious about buying a sedan and the car is mostly going to be self driven, the Jazz makes more sense.
The 1.5 L price difference is the icing on the cake.
Very well said



Now, we have quite a lot of comments - on Jazz being over-priced, or on the need for re-aligning the prices with the launch of 1.5 variant. Now on a separate note, I think Honda should think of revising the City prices. I feel the car is over-priced, and some kind of price correction will help Honda. I can understand their resistance to undervalue Jazz, but they can help the customers by doing price correction to the over-valued City. Itís beneficial for the company because it may help to combat the threat from Vento (and also from the upcoming Fiesta).
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Old 27th April 2011, 13:22   #79
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

What is the GC of the Jazz? How does it compared to other hatches in the territory?
Also what is the best tyre upgrade which can be done?
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Old 27th April 2011, 13:46   #80
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

I think one of the points being ignored here is the FE. If the 1.5L Jazz can give significantly better FE than a 1.5L sedan, then that may weigh heavily on the consumer's minds also, especially considering the ever increasing petrol prices (soon to hit Rs. 60+ in Delhi).

Other than that, it's success or failure truly depends on pricing, pricing, pricing.

I don't expect this to be an astounding success like the Figo and Etios etc. but I think there's a place in the marker for a premium hatchback.
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Old 27th April 2011, 13:50   #81
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
I think itís the other way. The hatch variant should be the better handler, compared to the sedan version on the same platform.
+1. I feel the same about Polo and Vento. Polo IMO is the better handler.
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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Personally I feel the Jazz is a better looking number. That said, the current City is a sufficiently good looking car. No wonder, the design cues are carried on to the upcoming Civic.
I feel the same too but City is a good looking car while jazz is more futuristic.

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Yes, the Jazz /Fit is an international offering, whereas is the City is more for the boot-friendly markets. And the fact is, in many of these markets, the Jazz / Fit is more popular albeit having a higher price tag compared to the City.
Spot on! Many places Jazz is priced higher than the ANHC and still manages to outsell it. This clearly shows Indian's affinity towards sedans. Honda is not looking to cheat Indians only. Jazz in India is priced similar/lower to its pricing in other countries.



Quote:
Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Now, we have quite a lot of comments - on Jazz being over-priced, or on the need for re-aligning the prices with the launch of 1.5 variant. Now on a separate note, I think Honda should think of revising the City prices. I feel the car is over-priced, and some kind of price correction will help Honda. I can understand their resistance to undervalue Jazz, but they can help the customers by doing price correction to the over-valued City. Itís beneficial for the company because it may help to combat the threat from Vento (and also from the upcoming Fiesta).
Very well said. I am surprised why people find the Jazz overpriced and the ANHC to be reasonably priced. When I was looking out, I found the ANHC to be overpriced relative to the Jazz.

Overall, I am very happy with this decision..but feeling bad because I could have bought it if I would have waited somewhat more. Actually, I never expected Honda to launch the Jazz 1.5 in India given the poor sales. But, they proved me wrong! The 1.2 in the current jazz is very good but still the 1.5 would have been ideal for me ............
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Old 27th April 2011, 14:44   #82
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Originally Posted by adimicra View Post

I feel the same too but City is a good looking car while jazz is more futuristic.

Spot on! Many places Jazz is priced higher than the ANHC and still manages to outsell it. This clearly shows Indian's affinity towards sedans. Honda is not looking to cheat Indians only. Jazz in India is priced similar/lower to its pricing in other countries.


Very well said. I am surprised why people find the Jazz overpriced and the ANHC to be reasonably priced. When I was looking out, I found the ANHC to be overpriced relative to the Jazz.
Jazz looking furturistic is news...it looks good, looks suave and may be chik ( Iam not sure). But, futuristic...hmm... How many folks turn their head to snatch another look of a Jazz passing by (for sheer looks, not for "arre...yeh kaun gadi hai"?) ?

Dont dismiss the common Indian just because he/she loves to buy a sedan. There are logics behind it and if you cant get their logic that's fine. But, do not underestimate his/her wisdom.

Yes, ANHC is overpriced and yes, it lacks features; that's what I felt when I purchased and even now. Damn, I waited to make a decision only to see that it gettign costlier. But, I did not have another option then.

But, Jazz is way overpriced. Otherwise, why it does not sell? And how Hyundai manages to sell i20 so well with a playstation-like super light steering and soft suspension and underpowered engine (petrol one)? It's pricing!

BTW, I did have a look at the Jazz and I was tempted to get this instead of ANHC for some time. But, those magic seats....how much ever praise one showers on those, the fact remains that those are thiner and firmer and with steeper back rest, those are basically slgihtly ergonomically poor-designed seats comapred to ANHC. It was not as comfortable as ANHC. Car is a luxury thing and the most luxurious thing in a car is to travel in it's back seat and I did not want to compromise on that. The other point that was a let down: the front seats and front dash instrument cluster etc are fantastic in Jazz and better than ANHC but Honda did not give same treatment to rear passenger area. Rather it is more of a step-motherly treatment. The two sections are not in harmony. Also, if I remember correctly, initially, there were no rear parcel shelf.

If I understand the needs and psychology of urban Indian population, Jazz and City is targetted to two different segments of modern urban India populace. Jazz is more for a young, either unmarried or just married person (<30) with a fat pay cheque and the City is more for a slightly older person( 30+), having a family with one/two kids and parents living along with, having more responsibilities to shoulder, of course with a equally fat pay cheque, if not more. Honda understood the second batch pretty well and that's what is reflected in the sales. I feel Honda need to understand the first batch a little more to get some more sales in Jazz.

These are views from a layman perspective, from the perspective of an average car buyer without much technical knowledge of cars.

Cheers
Pratim

Last edited by pratim : 27th April 2011 at 14:46.
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Old 27th April 2011, 14:58   #83
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Originally Posted by pratim View Post
Jazz is more for a young, either unmarried or just married person (<30) with a fat pay cheque and the City is more for a slightly older person( 30+), having a family with one/two kids and parents living along with, having more responsibilities to shoulder, of course with a equally fat pay cheque, if not more. Honda understood the second batch pretty well and that's what is reflected in the sales. I feel Honda need to understand the first batch a little more to get some more sales in Jazz.
Without getting into the arguments about the City/ Jazz (purely subjective and you are entitled to your opinion as I am), I would like to understand what responsibilities have got to do with the car. By the word responsibilities do you mean more 'passengers in the car' or 'dependents'? I can understand the age part but not the part where you talk about responsibilities. Perhaps there is something I am missing here, I hope you can explain what you intended.
Also, I dont think it has got much to do with a pay cheque; there are many people who get a fat pay cheque but still choose to spend less on cars, there are others who may not get a fat pay cheque but are willing to take on debts in order to enjoy the car of their choice, even if that may mean spending a bit more
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Old 27th April 2011, 15:48   #84
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Originally Posted by pratim View Post
Jazz looking furturistic is news...it looks good, looks suave and may be chik ( Iam not sure). But, futuristic...hmm... How many folks turn their head to snatch another look of a Jazz passing by (for sheer looks, not for "arre...yeh kaun gadi hai"?) ?

Dont dismiss the common Indian just because he/she loves to buy a sedan. There are logics behind it and if you cant get their logic that's fine. But, do not underestimate his/her wisdom.

Yes, ANHC is overpriced and yes, it lacks features; that's what I felt when I purchased and even now. Damn, I waited to make a decision only to see that it gettign costlier. But, I did not have another option then.

But, Jazz is way overpriced. Otherwise, why it does not sell? And how Hyundai manages to sell i20 so well with a playstation-like super light steering and soft suspension and underpowered engine (petrol one)? It's pricing!

BTW, I did have a look at the Jazz and I was tempted to get this instead of ANHC for some time. But, those magic seats....how much ever praise one showers on those, the fact remains that those are thiner and firmer and with steeper back rest, those are basically slgihtly ergonomically poor-designed seats comapred to ANHC. It was not as comfortable as ANHC. Car is a luxury thing and the most luxurious thing in a car is to travel in it's back seat and I did not want to compromise on that. The other point that was a let down: the front seats and front dash instrument cluster etc are fantastic in Jazz and better than ANHC but Honda did not give same treatment to rear passenger area. Rather it is more of a step-motherly treatment. The two sections are not in harmony. Also, if I remember correctly, initially, there were no rear parcel shelf.

If I understand the needs and psychology of urban Indian population, Jazz and City is targetted to two different segments of modern urban India populace. Jazz is more for a young, either unmarried or just married person (<30) with a fat pay cheque and the City is more for a slightly older person( 30+), having a family with one/two kids and parents living along with, having more responsibilities to shoulder, of course with a equally fat pay cheque, if not more. Honda understood the second batch pretty well and that's what is reflected in the sales. I feel Honda need to understand the first batch a little more to get some more sales in Jazz.

These are views from a layman perspective, from the perspective of an average car buyer without much technical knowledge of cars.

Cheers
Pratim
I don't want to start argument on subjective things because these things do not end ever.

Yes, Jazz looks futuristic to me and believe me, it turns heads

The things you say about fat pay cheque, married, unmarried and all seem ridiculous to me.
I, myself, am married with a kid and well past 30 (unfortunate but true) and I know people older than me who have bought Jazz! And no, my pay cheque is not that fat!
I am not underestimating anybody but generally Indians' affinity towards sedan is a known thing even if they do not use the back seat that often! I have been tired of answering people why I bought a 'small car' when I could have got a 'big car' at that price - they do not even think about the features, quality, engineering, my priorities before asking this question. So, this is something which is a fact and it's better we accept it but I am not saying it's wrong - everyone has the choice to use own's money in the way he thinks its best used!
I have said in my earlier post that ANHC has much better back seat and Jazz is not for anyone who is going to be chauffeur driven mostly! So, no arguments there!
No more posts from my side on this topic.

Last edited by adimicra : 27th April 2011 at 15:50.
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Old 27th April 2011, 15:58   #85
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
I am surprised why people find the Jazz overpriced and the ANHC to be reasonably priced. When I was looking out, I found the ANHC to be overpriced relative to the Jazz.

Overall, I am very happy with this decision..but feeling bad because I could have bought it if I would have waited somewhat more. Actually, I never expected Honda to launch the Jazz 1.5 in India given the poor sales. But, they proved me wrong! The 1.2 in the current jazz is very good but still the 1.5 would have been ideal for me ............
Well, the launch of 1.5L does not make the current 1.2 Jazz a bad buy. The 1.2 is indeed a very good city car, and quite capable for the occasional highway runs. And from what I know, the facelift part is quite minimal.

Last edited by vb-san : 27th April 2011 at 16:00. Reason: Additional comment removed
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Old 27th April 2011, 15:59   #86
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

Dear TBHPian

Hold on to your horses. I think we have had enough discussion on this topic. Bottom line is both Jazz and ANHC rock in their respective worlds.

BTW @sidindica: Is Honda planning to give away the current Jazz at heavily discounted price to clear the stock? If it comes to about 7 lacs for the Jazz X, I might just get one for me.
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Old 27th April 2011, 16:42   #87
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Dont dismiss the common Indian just because he/she loves to buy a sedan. There are logics behind it and if you cant get their logic that's fine. But, do not underestimate his/her wisdom.

Pratim
Well said. The runaway success of weird looking Dzire indicates Indians' love for sedans.
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Old 27th April 2011, 16:48   #88
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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What is the GC of the Jazz? How does it compared to other hatches in the territory?
Also what is the best tyre upgrade which can be done?
The GC is the same as the City's, I think. About 170 mm approximately. It behaves the same way the City does when driven over speed-breakers. With 4 people and luggage, the Jazz might scrape a few speed-breakers.

As far as tyre upgrades are concerned, I'd say the diameter of the wheel is fine. 15" is adequate and strikes a good balance between handling and comfort. What one can do is go in for wider tyres. 195/60 R15" would be a good upgrade, is my guess.

----------------------------------------------------

I've always been an advocate of the Jazz. So pardon me if my tone seems harsh, It isn't meant to be.

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Originally Posted by pratim View Post
Jazz looking furturistic is news...it looks good, looks suave and may be chik ( Iam not sure). But, futuristic...hmm... How many folks turn their head to snatch another look of a Jazz passing by (for sheer looks, not for "arre...yeh kaun gadi hai"?) ?
Ummm, It's definitely more futuristic than the City and the Civic. It looks space-age according to me. But then looks are subjective. I like the way the City looks, but I think the rear is a bit narrow and could have done with some more width.

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Dont dismiss the common Indian just because he/she loves to buy a sedan. There are logics behind it and if you cant get their logic that's fine. But, do not underestimate his/her wisdom.
Well, if the logic has something to do with the feeling or pride of owning a sedan, solely because it has a boot, then I shall dismiss him. The roads would be a cleaner, greener and freer place if people bought hatch-backs and drove them in the city. Buying a sedan over a hatch, just because it has a boot does not make any sense to me at all. There is no logic behind it.

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Originally Posted by pratim View Post
But, Jazz is way overpriced. Otherwise, why it does not sell? And how Hyundai manages to sell i20 so well with a playstation-like super light steering and soft suspension and underpowered engine (petrol one)? It's pricing!
It does not sell, because the Indian market hasn't matured enough yet. People are still hung up over sedans and the fact that the boot gives them an ego boost. If people think a bit smarter, they will realize that they would be better off if they buy something equally competent in the form of a hatch, at a whole lakh cheaper! Now that makes sense.

The i20 does well, not because it costs 6 lakhs. It's because Hyundai knows how to attract the typical Indian customer. 3 words. Bang-for-buck! Give him a car with loads of features and wrap it in a good looking body, and it will sell.

But peel the exterior off the Jazz, and you'll know that technically, it's probably the best engineered petrol car out there. The engine-gearbox-suspension and overall design is so sound, that nothing from Hyundai will come close.

You have to pay a price for engineering. Like someone said earlier in the thread, the Jazz and the Civic cost almost the same in the US market, but the Jazz sells like hot cakes. There is a reason behind that.

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Originally Posted by pratim View Post
But, those magic seats....how much ever praise one showers on those, the fact remains that those are thiner and firmer and with steeper back rest, those are basically slgihtly ergonomically poor-designed seats comapred to ANHC. It was not as comfortable as ANHC. Car is a luxury thing and the most luxurious thing in a car is to travel in it's back seat and I did not want to compromise on that. The other point that was a let down: the front seats and front dash instrument cluster etc are fantastic in Jazz and better than ANHC but Honda did not give same treatment to rear passenger area. Rather it is more of a step-motherly treatment. The two sections are not in harmony. Also, if I remember correctly, initially, there were no rear parcel shelf.
You don't seem to have understood the concept of the Jazz at all. It's a car meant for city driving. City-driving does not comprise of long distances. The Jazz isn't exactly a long-distance car, even though it can do the job and quite well. Plus, it's the sort of car you buy if you're driving it yourself. The seats in the front are comfortable enough. It's not a chauffeur-driven car by any stretch of imagination. So it's strong points aren't in rear-seat-comfort. It has other strong points like versatility, practicality, fuel-efficiency, engineering, etc. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.

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Originally Posted by pratim View Post
Jazz is more for a young, either unmarried or just married person (<30) with a fat pay cheque and the City is more for a slightly older person( 30+), having a family with one/two kids and parents living along with, having more responsibilities to shoulder, of course with a equally fat pay cheque, if not more. Honda understood the second batch pretty well and that's what is reflected in the sales. I feel Honda need to understand the first batch a little more to get some more sales in Jazz.


These are views from a layman perspective, from the perspective of an average car buyer without much technical knowledge of cars.

Cheers
Pratim
Lol. We are a nuclear family. My father turns 53 today. And he bought the Jazz and he loves it more than our Civic! He finds it more comfortable to drive in the city because it's smaller, thus being easier to maneuver. Plus, he loves the power and the engineering in it. He feels it's such a well designed car (in terms of space and looks) that he would not have bought the Civic if the Jazz had come along earlier.

Oh and yes, you could put him in the 'average-car-buyer' group. But, he's a thinking customer, not just when it comes to cars.
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Old 27th April 2011, 17:10   #89
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post

Ummm, It's definitely more futuristic than the City and the Civic. It looks space-age according to me. But then looks are subjective. I like the way the City looks, but I think the rear is a bit narrow and could have done with some more width.
I do like hatches or hot hatches and had Jazz been launched with 1.5L engine at lauch I would have preferred that over the City. BUT never heard someone say that Jazz was more futuristic than the Civic! Definitely not me. From a distance, looking at the back, I have sometimes confused it with a Innova.

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Well, if the logic has something to do with the feeling or pride of owning a sedan, solely because it has a boot, then I shall dismiss him. The roads would be a cleaner, greener and freer place if people bought hatch-backs and drove them in the city. Buying a sedan over a hatch, just because it has a boot does not make any sense to me at all. There is no logic behind it.

By that logic, maybe if we all rode bikes or bicycles it would be even better!

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
It does not sell, because the Indian market hasn't matured enough yet. People are still hung up over sedans and the fact that the boot gives them an ego boost. If people think a bit smarter, they will realize that they would be better off if they buy something equally competent in the form of a hatch, at a whole lakh cheaper! Now that makes sense.
Well, Indian market hasn't yet reached a state where every family or most families have multiple cars. So we have different requirements from the so called "mature" markets. We need the space to carry 4-5 people along with some luggage for which a boot comes in very handy. Why do think DZire sells? It's definitely not the looks. It's the practicality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
You don't seem to have understood the concept of the Jazz at all. It's a car meant for city driving. City-driving does not comprise of long distances. The Jazz isn't exactly a long-distance car, even though it can do the job and quite well. Plus, it's the sort of car you buy if you're driving it yourself. The seats in the front are comfortable enough. It's not a chauffeur-driven car by any stretch of imagination. So it's strong points aren't in rear-seat-comfort. It has other strong points like versatility, practicality, fuel-efficiency, engineering, etc. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.
They are selling in India. When selling in India should try to sell what we want to buy (and not buy what they want to sell). Or is Honda above that?

Last edited by asr245 : 27th April 2011 at 17:12.
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Old 27th April 2011, 17:14   #90
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Default Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end

Jazz 1.5 don't do any good in there sales nos. As most of the buyers today are looking for Diesel Cars because of the rapid increase in Petrol prices. Honda doesn't seems to be interested in bringing the diesel Engines to Indian market. I would have bought a Jazz if it has Honda's i-DTEC diesel engine even at a premium price.

Last edited by ashok_lat : 27th April 2011 at 17:19.
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