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Old 2nd May 2011, 13:20   #16
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

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Originally Posted by xingamazon View Post
Understand, what we are suggesting in this thread is making life insurance compulsory in India. Note that its not the case even in developed countries.
If we compare it to life insurance, current situation is like If I want to buy a life insurance I need to buy a car or a house first. I can't make choice between luxury and insurance. even if they don't relate anywhere(e.g power windows and ABS) that is only the point.

Importance of safety features / Whether should be mandatory or not can be separate discussions. Already was discussed/being discussed in different threads.

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Originally Posted by xingamazon View Post
Understand just mimicking developed countries is not going to help the cause, in countries like US, there is a car for every person. With that, they can afford to have such a rule not in India.
True.
This suggestion is also due to budget constraints.
If with my limited budget I want make choice between safety features and other features I should have choice.

Also this is not a new thing, There are instances of ABS offered optional (Swift vdi/Getz GLS are just few of examples).

Etios is the exact example of what suggested. (with G+safety kit variant)
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Old 2nd May 2011, 13:40   #17
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

As I prefer after market units of ICE and alloys to go with my taste, a basic car with the option of ABS would be great for me. I really want my car to have at least ABS if not airbags, the current scenario in our country (mostly, not all) unfortunately wants us to climb the features ladder and get all other features before we can access the safety features! Sad :(
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Old 2nd May 2011, 14:12   #18
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

Excellent thread. I feel we do need to have Airbag fitted in any vehicle sold in India.

When I was buying a car last december Maruti and Tata dealers were discouraging me from buying Zxi and Aura Plus models respectively. Tata sales person even said that "Airbags are something which you use only once". I had nothing to say to him and just looked at him. I wanted a car with ABS/Airbag which is why I bought an i10 Asta rather than i20 Sportz. I had a budget upto 6L only.

These are the disadvantages of being in a country of 1.2 billion people. Another disabler is lack of proper education among people. Biggest concern among potential buyers is regarding Airbag deployment. Most people don't know where the Airbag sensors are. Even I was unaware until read my car's manual. Also people don't know that most Airbags deploy only when someone is sitting in the seat. There is a lot of software within these new cars. If only Airbags were mandatory safety would have been affordable and not premium.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 15:05   #19
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

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Originally Posted by Vishal.R View Post
First thread ..So please bear with me.
Importance of basic safety features (ABS and Airbags mostly) is very much discussed/acknowledged in this form and overall.so now Its time to demand for choice.

Toyota Etios is only car which comes with base model + optional safety kit.
No offence to your proposal, just wanted to make one correction. Toyota Etios base version does come with optional Safety Package. The base versions is J, then comes G. The G has this optional Safety Package.

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Old 2nd May 2011, 15:29   #20
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

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Originally Posted by libranof1987 View Post
If cars did come with "optional" safety features like ABS, ESP, Airbags etc., they are fit by dealers, right?
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Originally Posted by vina View Post
ABS/airbags etc. can not be fit by the dealers, they have to be done at the assembly line (otherwise the cost is way too much).
I am yet to come across any mechanic or dealer who claims they can do ABS / Airbags for any cost ! Simply put, it cannot be done outside the assembly line !!

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Originally Posted by Torquedo View Post
My Take on this topic -

We have close to about - 30*913 ~ 28K T-BHPian on board here, but how many have come across with a situation wherein the Air Bag has opened up or ABS has really been the deal breaker?

I guess (my assumption) less or around 1%.
If an educated forum life t-bhp thinks safety packages are just decorative items worth a premium, nothing better said about the common people !

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Originally Posted by Torquedo View Post
Now, with the Air bags and ABS increasing the cost of a car by 1L minimum,
How do you arrive at the 1L premium for ABS + Airbags?? It should not be more than 50K. ABS alone is just a 25K more.


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Originally Posted by Torquedo View Post
in India where more often than not we drive in a Bumper - 2 - Bumper traffic with occasional highway trips, it makes no sense to pay a premium for these safety features.
I have seen videos which shows collision impact for passengers at a speed of just 20kmph !! Would you mind searching for some and watching those?

**************************************

We all have only one life - Why do we need to compromise on it for a stupid 50K - 1L ?? Better safe than be sorry. Please remember we don't have the luxury of rewinding & deleting the bad experiences in real life !!

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 2nd May 2011 at 15:33.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 15:44   #21
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

If ABS/airbags are optional, how many people will opt for it? Perhaps 10% of the whole population of car buyers. Consider the most selling diesel hatchback, the Swift. How many diesels does it sell in a month? May be about 7000. So, will Maruti agree to sell only 700 LDi/VDi with ABS/airbags? Does it work out for them? (small note: I know that VDi has optional ABS). This is the case with India's biggest car seller. Imagine small players!

If airbags are mandatory, how many can make full use of them? AFAIK, airbags do not deploy if the seatbelts aren't worn. Who is going to ensure that the occupants wear seatbelts in a country where policemen themselves do not wear seatbelts (well, only in most parts of India)? And if airbags do deploy during a high speed collision when the occupants aren't wearing seatbelts, I guess even dental records won't help in recognising them!

Last edited by rohanjf : 2nd May 2011 at 15:45.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 15:47   #22
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torquedo View Post
My Take on this topic -

We have close to about - 30*913 ~ 28K T-BHPian on board here, but how many have come across with a situation wherein the Air Bag has opened up or ABS has really been the deal breaker?
For me lack of basic safety equipment(Structure + ABS + Airbags) is a deal breaker. All my cars have ABS + Airbags. I feel it's time manufacturers should start offering ESP as an option in all of their premium offerings.

I pray i never come across a situation where i have to use the safety equipment, but i also do not wish to be in an emergency situation without all the safety equipment.

Last edited by .anshuman : 2nd May 2011 at 16:30. Reason: point added.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 15:52   #23
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

^^ swiftnfurious, exactly my points. If the people in this forum itself are this ignorant, what to tell about people outside the circle? Many people don't even know that they can get killed even at 5 kmph impact. As you rightly told, life is only one, you cannot have a choice. Airbags, cars etc can be replaced, but not one's life.
Coming back to the point of the thread, I still believe that Indian market is not mature enough to buy safety. Many of the comments in this thread itself are pointers to that. It is still one of the least considered aspects in India while buying a car. It is always better to have safety kit as optional, but how many will opt for that? For manufacturers, it's always the numbers that matter. If 10 people opt for the safety kit and 100,000 does not, it's always better for the manufacturer to ignore those 10 customers to keep things simpler. If people become educated (in the real sense), then things might change.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 18:17   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
I am yet to come across any mechanic or dealer who claims they can do ABS / Airbags for any cost ! Simply put, it cannot be done outside the assembly line !!

It can be done - they'll have to work too much though (replace the whole dash etc. for airbags, and the whole front axle system for the ABS).

Just think what they do after an accident - Airbags need to be replaced and, if you lost one side completely, so do ABS. The car doesn't go back to assembly line for that.


If an educated forum life t-bhp thinks safety packages are just decorative items worth a premium, nothing better said about the common people !

agreed fully

How do you arrive at the 1L premium for ABS + Airbags?? It should not be more than 50K. ABS alone is just a 25K more.

In volume ABS and airbag should cost no more than 15k-20k each. He is probably taking the difference between prices of top end and base models


I have seen videos which shows collision impact for passengers at a speed of just 20kmph !! Would you mind searching for some and watching those?

**************************************

We all have only one life - Why do we need to compromise on it for a stupid 50K - 1L ?? Better safe than be sorry. Please remember we don't have the luxury of rewinding & deleting the bad experiences in real life !!

I agree with you mostly - even though I'm not a fan of airbags (ABS is a must for most of us, if not for a rare few) for the price differential (less than 5% of the cost of the car) I would rather have it than not.

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Originally Posted by rohanjf View Post
If ABS/airbags are optional, how many people will opt for it? Perhaps 10% of the whole population of car buyers. Consider the most selling diesel hatchback, the Swift. How many diesels does it sell in a month? May be about 7000. So, will Maruti agree to sell only 700 LDi/VDi with ABS/airbags? Does it work out for them? (small note: I know that VDi has optional ABS). This is the case with India's biggest car seller. Imagine small players!

If airbags are mandatory, how many can make full use of them? AFAIK, airbags do not deploy if the seatbelts aren't worn. Who is going to ensure that the occupants wear seatbelts in a country where policemen themselves do not wear seatbelts (well, only in most parts of India)? And if airbags do deploy during a high speed collision when the occupants aren't wearing seatbelts, I guess even dental records won't help in recognising them!

AFAIK airgbag effectiveness for people who wear the seat belt properly (i.e. no funny business like wearing it across your chest, under your arms; and wearing it sufficiently snugly) is repeatedly found to have not much evidence, though at roughly 15k this is less than 5% of the cheapest of cars ((except nano - where airbags may not be useful given the low speeds achieved and the cramped space)

ABS, impact bars etc. are another matter entirely - they must be mandatory.

Last edited by .anshuman : 2nd May 2011 at 18:26. Reason: Back to back posts within 20mins. Please use Multi-Quote option when Quoting more than a post at a time. Thanks
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Old 2nd May 2011, 22:18   #25
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
I am yet to come across any mechanic or dealer who claims they can do ABS / Airbags for any cost ! Simply put, it cannot be done outside the assembly line !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
It can be done - they'll have to work too much though (replace the whole dash etc. for airbags, and the whole front axle system for the ABS).

Just think what they do after an accident - Airbags need to be replaced and, if you lost one side completely, so do ABS. The car doesn't go back to assembly line for that.
So what you are talking here is "repair" & not retro-fitment. If you want to do an ABS for say, a Swift LDi, its not possible once its delivered from factory. And c'mon any dealer would otherwise take a retrofitment job since they can say its a lot of re-work and can charge the customer heavily at the same time. I agree that if the car meets with an accident and if they need to repair it, yes, it can be done.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 2nd May 2011 at 22:20.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 23:24   #26
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
So what you are talking here is "repair" & not retro-fitment. If you want to do an ABS for say, a Swift LDi, its not possible once its delivered from factory. And c'mon any dealer would otherwise take a retrofitment job since they can say its a lot of re-work and can charge the customer heavily at the same time. I agree that if the car meets with an accident and if they need to repair it, yes, it can be done.

If you are thinking that because the A.S.S. guys refuse to do it therefore it can not be done - there is a difference between "can not do" and "will not do"

When they tell you they can't do it is usually the second thing they are talking about.

If a car meets an accident, Airbag will need to be replaced - there is no repair for that as far as I know. Also for an accident bad enough the whole ABS asspembly will need to be replaced.

The question is whether Ford (or Maruti or ...) will even provide those assemblies to you and how complex the repair is (and hence how much will it cost).
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Old 2nd May 2011, 23:25   #27
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

I think the manufacturers put both luxury and safety features in one high variant to sell there features.. If a person wants safety he would have to buy luxury features as well as they are all in one model and vice-versa.

If manufactures were to give safety as an option there would be a huge loss to them because then car buying population will be divided into two groups, one buying the safety variant and other luxury variant which right now is a single group who buys the premium variant including both.
So, it is clear that manufacturers will avoid this concept for as long as they can..

According to me, government should come up with some law regarding the safety like the U.S. Government has made it compulsory for Electronic Stability Control (ESC) to be standard on all passenger vehicles by 2012. This decision was based on a study by Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)..

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) said that ESC could prevent as many as 9,000 fatal crashes per year, and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that ESC reduces single-vehicle car crashes by 26 percent, and single-vehicle SUV crashes by 48 percent [source: IIHS]

The best part about this is that ESC uses ABS and TCS to do its job so if the government can come out with some law to mandate this on every car, it will solve all our concerns..

and the step has to be taken on the government side because people in India aren't educated enough to know how ABS, airbags etc can help them. For example i tried explaining ABS to my dad so many times when we bought swift but he wouldn't listen. He understood its importance recently while he was driving our new LAURA (which has ABS as standard) and he had to brake hard because of a dog coming in front of the car. He now knows its importance and won't buy a car without it..

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Old 3rd May 2011, 13:22   #28
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

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Originally Posted by varunsonu View Post

If manufactures were to give safety as an option there would be a huge loss to them because then car buying population will be divided into two groups, one buying the safety variant and other luxury variant which right now is a single group who buys the premium variant including both.
So, it is clear that manufacturers will avoid this concept for as long as they can..

Some companies have already started providing it as a safety kit option on base+1 onwards. So it is not obvious.


According to me, government should come up with some law regarding the safety like the U.S. Government has made it compulsory for Electronic Stability Control (ESC) to be standard on all passenger vehicles by 2012. This decision was based on a study by Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)..

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) said that ESC could prevent as many as 9,000 fatal crashes per year, and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that ESC reduces single-vehicle car crashes by 26 percent, and single-vehicle SUV crashes by 48 percent [source: IIHS]

The best part about this is that ESC uses ABS and TCS to do its job so if the government can come out with some law to mandate this on every car, it will solve all our concerns..

As it was pointed in earlier posts by many - our conditions are very different - small cars, low speeds. The numbers you mentioned would fall dramatically in our conditions, while the costs will go up too.


and the step has to be taken on the government side because people in India aren't educated enough to know how ABS, airbags etc can help them. For example i tried explaining ABS to my dad so many times when we bought swift but he wouldn't listen. He understood its importance recently while he was driving our new LAURA (which has ABS as standard) and he had to brake hard because of a dog coming in front of the car. He now knows its importance and won't buy a car without it..


What is it about "Indian people are not educated enough". These days everyone wants to help the foolish Indian population.

In my relatives there are many who just wouldn't cross 55 on the speedo, no matter what (and they always wear seatbelts). If they prefer not to have airbags, ESC ... I think their choice is safer than a jackass in a fully loaded (with safety features) car driving at 120kmph.


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Old 3rd May 2011, 14:04   #29
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

vina quoting your text from post #24

Quote:
It can be done - they'll have to work too much though (replace the whole dash etc. for airbags, and the whole front axle system for the ABS).

Just think what they do after an accident - Airbags need to be replaced and, if you lost one side completely, so do ABS. The car doesn't go back to assembly line for that.
I beg to differ here, you forgot the primary piece of hardware. The ECU needs to support this and unless it does there is no way it would work. Leave alone modifying the axle and whole dash.

It's easier said than done. A lot of work goes into programming this module so that it works flawlessly with all the sensors and other components of the car. So getting one programmed and designed outside the assembly line is quite impossible.

If someone did, what kind of real time testing does this go through ? Manufacturers would definitely have access to infrastructure which allows for testing, outside the assembly it's seldom you would find it.
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Old 3rd May 2011, 14:18   #30
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Default Re: Optional safety features with base variants.

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Originally Posted by rjstyles69 View Post
vina quoting your text from post #24



I beg to differ here, you forgot the primary piece of hardware. The ECU needs to support this and unless it does there is no way it would work. Leave alone modifying the axle and whole dash.

It's easier said than done. A lot of work goes into programming this module so that it works flawlessly with all the sensors and other components of the car. So getting one programmed and designed outside the assembly line is quite impossible.

If someone did, what kind of real time testing does this go through ? Manufacturers would definitely have access to infrastructure which allows for testing, outside the assembly it's seldom you would find it.

I agree, but you are missing the point here.

If the manufacturer wants this to be a component that can be added at teh dealership level then it is actually pretty straight forward to do.

The ECU changes are mostly software upgrade, I don't think different ECU is used (or need to be used) on different versions of the car now - the PCB BOM is not so much that it merits hardware changes.


Also I'm not sure Airbags need much programming (though ABS probably will) at least for cheaper systems - the accelerometer (crash sensor) signal goes directly to the explosive charge. The only programmablity on most systems is whether you can turn it off - which is actually akin to putting a switch between the sensor and the charge.


And to top it all - given enough $$$ this can surely be done. If you can remap the whole CPU to get better power (even customised power curves for racing) then this can be done too. Question is how much are you willing to pay - and that's what I said.
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