Alternate Fuels - Any Major Technologies?

[RS_DEL]

I do not know if I am posting old news. However this article about Toyota's developing an all EV RAV4 is significant news to me atleast. Here is the link .

Let us see if they are able to address the core constraint inhibiting EV growth i.e. battery pack costs.

[sgiitk]

As far as I know there are no major developments on the battery front. In fact there is a negative - Lithium Ion has the highest power density at the moment. Lithium shortage is getting worse with the Chinese controlling the bulk of the supply. I do not think I need to say more.

[karthik_ag1]

Topgear featured a Honda Clarity running on hyrdogen couple of years back. Research on alternate fuels has taken a bit of a back seat post recession.
Here is one interesting read on this subject - How Long Will Fossil Fuels Dominate Energy Consumption? - WSJ.com .

[sgiitk]

@karthik_ag1; Hydrogen has a problem - production. If you ask the Hydrogen guru's the best answer you get it Let the Hydrogen Economy Come, this will be solved. Now there are two major routes - electrolysis and hydro reforming. In the former cell voltages are a bit too high and as a result the efficiency is low. Also, in India where power shortages are endemic this is not the way to go. In Hydro-reforming you react water with carbon. So there is a big issue of the carbon footprint.

In Iceland they have Hydrogen buses going for a long time. The fuel used is Methanol in fuel cells.

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

As far as I know there are no major developments on the battery front. In fact there is a negative - Lithium Ion has the highest power density at the moment. Lithium shortage is getting worse with the Chinese controlling the bulk of the supply. I do not think I need to say more.

LiFe capacities in mainland China will most likely drive this in the near term. Probability of Li being exported is quite low. However the capacities being set up for Lithium Iron battery packs will likely exceed domestic consumption in China and drive the first phase of EV proliferation globally. Alternative chemistries using nano tech hav met with some success at lab level. I have the links stored someplace will dig them out and post. The scalability of these techs is the key and I for one believe there will be alternatives which will reduce the Li constraint substantially.

Originally Posted by karthik_ag1

Topgear featured a Honda Clarity running on hyrdogen couple of years back. Research on alternate fuels has taken a bit of a back seat post recession.
Here is one interesting read on this subject - How Long Will Fossil Fuels Dominate Energy Consumption? - WSJ.com .

As anyone who has followed this knows, hydrogen as of now is an utopian kind of solution i.e. ideal and not practical. As for the article I find Mr Khosla's contentions well reasoned. Let us see how soon we have this economic mess in the EU and US clear out. A scenario of economic stability with increased consumption will show us how the oil scenario will pan out.

[EasyR1der]

Just Today i was reading an article "MDI's air engine technology tested on Tata Motors vehicles" it talks about compressed Air engines.

Even though its been here for sometime now we still haven't been able to fully use this technology. But reading this made me hopeful.

Link to article in economic times MDI's air engine technology tested on Tata Motors vehicles - Economic Times

about compressed air engines . Compressed-air vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@karthik_ag1; Hydrogen has a problem - production. If you ask the Hydrogen guru's the best answer you get it Let the Hydrogen Economy Come, this will be solved. Now there are two major routes - electrolysis and hydro reforming. In the former cell voltages are a bit too high and as a result the efficiency is low. Also, in India where power shortages are endemic this is not the way to go. In Hydro-reforming you react water with carbon. So there is a big issue of the carbon footprint.

In Iceland they have Hydrogen buses going for a long time. The fuel used is Methanol in fuel cells. This is a fairly old article. Just found it in Post #2 of this thread, but cannot delete it so here it is again. Mods please help out!

Production is actually not the only big problem. Storage is also an issue. Unless you compress hydrogen to really extreme values, energy density is very poor.
So lets say you make a heavy duty tank, and compress??
the compressed H2 will simply seep through the metal!
Modelling and numerical simulation of permeated hydrogen dispersion in a garage with adiabatic walls and still air (JeanBernard Saffers) - Academia.edu

I think honda and nissan are working on this isue

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Production is actually not the only big problem. Storage is also an issue. Unless you compress hydrogen to really extreme garage with adiabatic walls and still air (JeanBernard Saffers) - Academia.edu

I think honda and nissan are working on this isue

If I am not mistaken I had read onboard about release of hydrogen through chemical reactions between chemicals which would circumvent the issue of storage.

Since you are an engineer hence the questions:

[1] Is this technically feasible?,
[2] In addition to technical feasibility can it be scaled to a level that it becomes economically viable? and
[3] Finally what are the safety issues involved in this kind of an alternative, if at all it is possible.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by RS_DEL

If I am not mistaken I had read onboard about release of hydrogen through chemical reactions between chemicals which would circumvent the issue of storage.

Since you are an engineer hence the questions:

[1] Is this technically feasible?,
[2] In addition to technical feasibility can it be scaled to a level that it becomes economically viable? and
[3] Finally what are the safety issues involved in this kind of an alternative, if at all it is possible.

I am not exactly an expert in this, but from what I have read, fuel cell tech is supposedly the answer to this.
H2 is stored as metal hydride in the fuel cell, or some other chemical, and then released as required.
This circumvents the issue for compressed storage.
However, companies are trying maximise the energy storage in fuel cells.
Most fuel cells are inert unless provided with a catalyst.

[sgiitk]

Let me bring some clarity since once upon a time I used to work on Hydrogen storage. An Israeli group had developed Hydride storage systems with capacity and weight similar to pressurised cylinders. The problem here may be that the Hydrogen will have to be very pre in order not to damage the hydride. I gave up Hydrogen since the Hydrogen Economy is always 'round the corner' for the past 30+ years.

Leaving aside the issue of production, fuel cells are the way to go - higher efficiency, and lower weight. All fuel cells use Hydrogen so in Iceland they must be cracking Methanol before usage. Since Methanol is from biomass thus the carbon footprint is not an issue.

One additional point against IC engines is that the fuel will constitute a far higher fraction of the charge - one molecule of Oxygen will requite two of hydrogen, which the ratio is a small fraction for Hydrocarbons. Thus the space left for the oxidant will be very much reduced. To compensate for this lower volumetric efficiency Direct Injection of Hydrogen is a must. Also, one of the US majors or BMW is working on directly injecting the super cold hydrogen into the cylinder!

[vina]

Originally Posted by EasyR1der

Just Today i was reading an article "MDI's air engine technology tested on Tata Motors vehicles" it talks about compressed Air engines.

Even though its been here for sometime now we still haven't been able to fully use this technology. But reading this made me hopeful.

Link to article in economic times MDI's air engine technology tested on Tata Motors vehicles - Economic Times

about compressed air engines . Compressed-air vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

do some more research and read on if you have time, the technology didn't pan out at all. another in the series of bad investments by Tata.

Originally Posted by RS_DEL

If I am not mistaken I had read onboard about release of hydrogen through chemical reactions between chemicals which would circumvent the issue of storage.

Since you are an engineer hence the questions:

[1] Is this technically feasible?,
[2] In addition to technical feasibility can it be scaled to a level that it becomes economically viable? and
[3] Finally what are the safety issues involved in this kind of an alternative, if at all it is possible.

storing in leak-proof containers is hard but not impossible. The main problem is still generation.

By the way, when you use methane (CNG) you still end up using the hydrogen part to a good amount. Compared to that methanol already has "water" so more fraction of energy comes from CO2 - it is just that methanol is supposed to be renewable so no net CO2 generation should happen as long as the fuel really came from renewable sources.

[RS_DEL]

Finally it is proven to be something more than just talk! "Better Place" takes it's first steps/roll-out/launch in the real world. Link is here.

The additional piece of info about the major investor in this enterprise i.e. The Israel Corp, is very enlightening to say the least.

[excelinnovator]

Now with fuel hike shocker , time is appropriate to encourage and develop propulsion technologies which reduce and eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels. Apart from compressed air engine being in development by Tata Motors with MDI International. I came across another promising and cost effective technology by British inventor Peter Dearman. Dearman engine - The Dearman Engine Company
uses Liquid air as propulsion medium instead of any fossil fuel. This is implemented in Internal Combustion Engine. This technology has been validated by Ricardo Engineering. Without much modification to engine fabrication and automotive infrastructure Dearman engines can be used.
See this video

Dearman Engine Company Video 1 - YouTube

[Fuldagap]

As per one of my friends, BPCL is establishing a plant somewhere in south India for producing an alternate fuel for IC engines. I'm not aware of the name of the fuel but it will be as good as CNG where emissions are concerned and the good thing is it'll require no extra installation in the vehicle. It could directly be filled into the petrol tank.
I'm wonderfully bad at chemistry so unable to remember the whole process now. But whatever i do is: CO (carbon monoxide) combines with H2 (Hydrogen) in the presence of a catalyst to produce 'something' plus H2O (water, a by-product).
CO is taken by partial combustion of coal (which is abundant in India). He said the fuel is much prevalent in China already as an alternate to CNG.

[CARDEEP]

Audi claims to make diesel from water. Here, is the link to Carpoint Australia report on the same:

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2012...om-water-32636