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Old 27th May 2011, 23:07   #76
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Question Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Kudos and hats off to DW for this brilliant analysis. Every one here have talked about fuel prices and the break even point between diesel and petrol.

But if I give these scenarios - (Forgive me I may really sound stupid to a motoring enthusiast)

Given above scenario works great for the car band from 3.5 Lakh onward (C Segment i suppose).

For me I have bought a Tata Nano at an onroad price of 2.4 lak (LX) after all discount and freebies.

Considering current petrol price Rs 71 in BLR and if I get an average of 18 KMPL my running cost would be Rs 3.94 rounded to Rs 4 / KM (AC). Commuting on an Auto it takes Rs 8.5 / KM. (non AC)

Owning a good Diesel hatch will (at least a CRDI) fetch a decent 5.5 Lak in BLR (Tata Vista) So considering the initial investment or ownership between a & b the difference is 3.1 Lak!!

Lets take this - I keep the car for 5 years .

Taking vague petrol and diesel prices -

I drive 10k a year so 50K in 5 years. Considering the following petrol price's –

year 1 - Rs 71, year 2 - Rs 77, year 3 - Rs 83, Year 4 Rs 85, Year 5 - Rs 88

Considering an average of 19 KMPL mixed city and Highway (For Nano) total fuel consumption as follows : -

Rs 37346, Rs 40502, Rs 43658, Rs 44710 and Rs 46288. Total = Rs 212504

Now Diesel Considering an average of 17 KMPL mixed city and Highway total fuel consumption as follows : -
year 1 - Rs 43, year 2 - Rs 50, year 3 - Rs 57, Year 4 Rs 62, Year 5 - Rs 65

Total fuel consumption is Rs 25370, Rs 29500, Rs 33630, Rs 36580, Rs 38350 so total = 163430

Difference is - Rs 49074

Total ownership plus running cost.
Petrol – Rs 240000 + Rs 212504 = Rs 452504
Diesel – Rs 550000 + Rs 163430 = Rs 713430
Difference – Rs 260926 (What say, did I make a mistake?)

PS: I have just compared these at a lay mans mathematical calculation. I have not considered power / comfort / luxury.

Last edited by Eddy : 28th May 2011 at 00:19. Reason: Removed formatting tags. Pls do not copy paste from MS Word / external editor. Notepad is fine.
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Old 28th May 2011, 00:24   #77
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Default Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

^^
erm, dont diesels have better FE than petrol?
how are you taking 17 and 19 for diesel and petrol,resp. et al?
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Old 28th May 2011, 00:56   #78
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Default Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
^^
erm, dont diesels have better FE than petrol?
how are you taking 17 and 19 for diesel and petrol,resp. et al?
Hey Mayankk,

I have considered a Tata Nano which is a 624 CC and a Tata Vista which is 1293 CC. I do not see a diesel vehicle below this capacity currently available on Indians roads. Also I have considered an average FE which includes city and highway drive with AC on all the time. Apart from Nano reaching such average is tough thats what I believe. Please feel free to ask if you have any questions.

Last edited by MadTiger : 28th May 2011 at 01:10. Reason: Miss spelled user name.
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Old 28th May 2011, 09:46   #79
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Default Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordmanchau View Post
...but then spreadsheets are not a complete waste. It is true spreadsheets can never give a true complete picture whatever assumption you build in but they do give a fair idea.
I agree most definitely. All I'm saying is it's not-an-exact-enough-science to over-do it. Consider also, the way one would react when purchasing a diesel car vs purchasing a petrol car. Frugal vs extravagant in use.

Like I said, spreadsheets are important; just not an exact enough science!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexpaul View Post
Not raking up any debate but I strongly disagree on this point with respect to extra amount being paid on diesel car is sunken cost, since you tend to recover that amt (close to 60%-80% of the extra cost) when you sell your diesel car.
Agree completely (infact if the govt increases the excise duty on diesel cars, you may get > 100% of the price differential). But, what I meant was that with a diesel car, you'd tend to be more extravagant in use since your incremental cost (diesel) is much lower vs. the incremental cost for a petrol car (petrol).

Last edited by manishk83 : 28th May 2011 at 09:51.
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Old 28th May 2011, 09:51   #80
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Default Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Another question that i had and i had asked this to the SA as well when comparing Laura TSI/TDI. If ones job is such that he might have to travel outside India for decent periods of time (6 months - 1 year) and there is someone at home to occasionally drive it for few kms (like 5-20 kms a week) to ensure the car starts and is in running condition.

Wherever i have asked i have been told that the petrols are better suited in this case?
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Old 28th May 2011, 12:01   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azeemhafiz View Post
Well we agree to disagree then. If you need an apple to apple comparison let's look at similar engines. As you pointed out that it is not fair comparing the 550i to the 530d let's not compare let's say the swift petrol to swift diesel or any other cars. It's not fair is it?

Why? Most of the oil burners depend on turbo, where as the petrol's are NA engines. I'd love to see a NA diesel engine beat an NA petrol engine on stats. Now for a similar comparison let's look at Laura. Although the 2.0 diesel is powerful and a wonderful engine it gets blown away into crude by the petrol counterpart 1.8 TSi. Now that to me is a fair comparison. (although the petrol is 200 cc less).

Diesels are nice and torquey in large thanks to their turbo, put a turbo on petrol and quite honestly it will put the oil burner counterpart to shame.
I do get your point but I was only talking about the quality of BMW's diesels vs their own existing petrols.
But since you brought up VWs engines i would like to point out that the 2.0 TDI in the Laura is in a subdued state of tune. The Audi 2.0 TDI almost matches the AUDI 1.8 TFSI and the AUDI 3.0 TDI JUST KILLS THE AUDI 3.2 TFSI despite having 200 cc less. It gets to the ton quicker and makes a full 170 nm more torque. Is THAT a fair comparision? Also DO NOT FORGET that turbo petrols in HIGH states of tune require HIGH OCTANE FUEL, whereas all oil burners will run on the humble stuff. Try finding bunks selling high octane fuel outside of the big metros in India.
We can go on and on with this debate and talk about cars which most of us can only dream about even looking at in the flesh let alone driving, but what i am trying to say here is -
On a PRACTICAL everyday basis we have reached a stage where you can have loads of fun(rivaling that or bettering that of a petrol car), along with fantastic economy, with cleaner emissions and better resale value with a diesel car....it is a win win situation and it is no wonder that the diesel market is HUGE in Europe as well, where diesel is in fact MORE EXPENSIVE than petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azeemhafiz View Post
Well we agree to disagree then. If you need an apple to apple comparison let's look at similar engines. As you pointed out that it is not fair comparing the 550i to the 530d let's not compare let's say the swift petrol to swift diesel or any other cars. It's not fair is it?
My apologies...i said AUDI 3.2 TFSI...should have been FSI. It is not a turbo.
Sorry again.

Last edited by mobike008 : 28th May 2011 at 17:07. Reason: back to back posts
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Old 28th May 2011, 12:50   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankjha1806
Another question that i had and i had asked this to the SA as well when comparing Laura TSI/TDI. If ones job is such that he might have to travel outside India for decent periods of time (6 months - 1 year) and there is someone at home to occasionally drive it for few kms (like 5-20 kms a week) to ensure the car starts and is in running condition.

Wherever i have asked i have been told that the petrols are better suited in this case?
Mayankk absolutely true. The only reason behind is the fuel. Diesel fuel is quite thicker and the complexities involved in internal combustion is more complex. Were as petrol engines are very agile and can be put to hibernate without much worry. But these days modern diesel engines are good as well but it is advisable to at least start the engine once in two weeks if you are away. Warm it up and the shut it off.
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Old 28th May 2011, 13:57   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hossdoc

I do get your point but I was only talking about the quality of BMW's diesels vs their own existing petrols.
But since you brought up VWs engines i would like to point out that the 2.0 TDI in the Laura is in a subdued state of tune. The Audi 2.0 TDI almost matches the AUDI 1.8 TFSI and the AUDI 3.0 TDI JUST KILLS THE AUDI 3.2 TFSI despite having 200 cc less. It gets to the ton quicker and makes a full 170 nm more torque. Is THAT a fair comparision? Also DO NOT FORGET that turbo petrols in HIGH states of tune require HIGH OCTANE FUEL, whereas all oil burners will run on the humble stuff. Try finding bunks selling high octane fuel outside of the big metros in India.
We can go on and on with this debate and talk about cars which most of us can only dream about even looking at in the flesh let alone driving, but what i am trying to say here is -
On a PRACTICAL everyday basis we have reached a stage where you can have loads of fun(rivaling that or bettering that of a petrol car), along with fantastic economy, with cleaner emissions and better resale value with a diesel car....it is a win win situation and it is no wonder that the diesel market is HUGE in Europe as well, where diesel is in fact MORE EXPENSIVE than petrol.
Like i said, agree to disagree

Personally I am a petrol head and logic is something beyond me, its more about feel and emotions. I am not a big fan of turbo's but was trying to emphasis that at a similar platform petrol to me reins supreme. Period.

I am yet to drive a diesel that according to me syncs with drivers heart, and I I've driven the "best" diesel engines out there. The true feel of an NA petrol engine can never be replaced. May be I think a lot like the folks at Ferrari then, it's from the heart and not logical

EDIT: I just saw your noted on the correction of TFSI / FSI - No apologies needed, we are just making the best case for the fuel we love the most. Simple.

Last edited by azeemhafiz : 28th May 2011 at 14:03.
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Old 29th May 2011, 02:05   #84
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Default Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadTiger View Post
Kudos and hats off to DW for this brilliant analysis. Every one here have talked about fuel prices and the break even point between diesel and petrol.

But if I give these scenarios - (Forgive me I may really sound stupid to a motoring enthusiast)
First thing lets not confuse about the segments, there is no point in comparing Nano (624cc) with Vista (1.3L). Ideally it has to be Vista Petrol vs Vista Diesel and compare the ownership cost, efficiency, cost/km etc on that basis.

Secondly increment of fuel prices cannot be so equal in case of Petrol vs Diesel.

Considering these factors I guess that will bring some substantial change in your calculations and maybe POV as well.

Last edited by mobike008 : 30th May 2011 at 17:29. Reason: Please DO NOT quoting large text, videos and pictures as it inconveniences our mobile users.
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Old 29th May 2011, 10:42   #85
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Default Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Head View Post
First thing lets not confuse about the segments, there is no point in comparing Nano (624cc) with Vista (1.3L). Ideally it has to be Vista Petrol vs Vista Diesel and compare the ownership cost, efficiency, cost/km etc on that basis.

Secondly increment of fuel prices cannot be so equal in case of Petrol vs Diesel.

Considering these factors I guess that will bring some substantial change in your calculations and maybe POV as well.


+1 to that. Comparisons have to be matched evenly. One should not be comparing a Nano with the Vista. There is also the factor of weight, safety, build, features. So like Turbo Head said it should be Petrol vs Diesel of the same make & model. Polo, Vista, Swift etc etc.



Cheers
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Old 29th May 2011, 11:36   #86
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There is one more scenario where you are left with no choice of fuel.

Let's say I want to buy a SUV. What are my options for a petrol SUV in the price range of 8-12 lacs? None. So obviously it's diesel.

Similarly someone wants to ANHC. It's petrol.

IMHO the choice is limited to a particular section of vehicles.

This situation changes if someone starts a search with a fuel type rather than vehicle size or brand.

Just a thought in the matte.
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Old 29th May 2011, 19:29   #87
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Default Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadTiger View Post
Kudos and hats off to DW for this brilliant analysis. Every one here have talked about fuel prices and the break even point between diesel and petrol.

But if I give these scenarios - (Forgive me I may really sound stupid to a motoring enthusiast)
Like some have quoted, the comparision has to be segment wise, but from a point A to point B transpotation point of view, I tend to agree to the above calculations, at the end of the day, Yes the Nano will cost you lesser than a Diesel Vista to cover the same ground.

Last edited by mobike008 : 30th May 2011 at 17:27. Reason: Please DO NOT quoting large text, videos and pictures as it inconveniences our mobile users.
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Old 29th May 2011, 19:56   #88
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Default Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Another factor ignored in Diesel vs Petrol debate is the Risk involved when there are strikes like truckers strike nation wide, remember the effect 2 years back.

After 3 days of most pumps going dry, Petrol was back available but diesel was still rationed.
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Old 29th May 2011, 20:20   #89
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Default Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Head View Post
First thing lets not confuse about the segments, ......
Secondly increment of fuel prices cannot be so equal in case of Petrol vs Diesel.

Considering these factors I guess that will bring some substantial change in your calculations and maybe POV as well.
I am a recent convert to diesel after 10 years of driving a petrol car , I believe that that diesel cars have better fuel efficiency - at least thats what I get from the FE quoted .
Given below is a link to a relevant presentation by SIAM http://www.siamonline.in/SIAM-Diesel-1st-Feb-2011.pdf
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Old 29th May 2011, 21:31   #90
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Unhappy Re: *Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel

Thanks DW for the excel sheet

The Petrol Vs Diesel conversation is going to be discussed till we all die i guess

The most fuel efficient car with all basic needs that a middle class family needs is a Wagon R LXi CNG. It works out to approximately Rs1.2/km to 1.5/km with almost 0 performance dip(provided your city has a few good CNG stations and if your able to manage that cyclinder in the boot.

People like me are stuck, i have picked up my first car 2 years ago, didnt want to invest more, i wanted to learn driving perfectly etc etc. I picked up an ALTO LXI and today i am driving perfectly fine and doing about 1200km a month i am feeling the heat i didnt expect the price difference between petrol and diesel to increase so much, I want a diesel or wagonr CNG today but my alto is facing a stiff 70k-80k deperication which is causing a hella lot of confusion in my mind
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