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Old 19th March 2013, 16:09   #166
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

A little known fact is that the e20 costs a whopping 7.0 - 8.5 lakhs outside of Delhi (i.e. cities where it doesn't receive the same subsidy).

Link to Full News Article

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The Ahmedabad (GJ) on-road price varies between a whopping Rs. 8.0 - 8.5 lakhs. The Mumbai (MH) on-road price is comparatively lower, but prohibitive nevertheless: Rs. 7.05 - 7.40 lakhs (one Mumbai dealer claimed a higher Rs. 7.6 lakh price). The Bangalore (KA) on-road price is identical to Mumbai.

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Old 19th March 2013, 16:54   #167
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

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A little known fact is that the e20 costs a whopping 7.0 - 8.5 lakhs outside of Delhi (i.e. cities where it doesn't receive the same subsidy)
There goes Mr. Anand Mahindra's dream down the drain! With this pricing, M&M should be happy if they are able to sell even 50 units a month outside of Delhi.
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Old 19th March 2013, 18:23   #168
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
A little known fact is that the e20 costs a whopping 7.0 - 8.5 lakhs outside of Delhi (i.e. cities where it doesn't receive the same subsidy).

Link to Full News Article
Looks like a car to make a 'go green' statement!

I hope M&M would disclose the sales figures for E2O from April and we can see it in the monthly Sales Thread.
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Old 19th March 2013, 18:30   #169
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
A little known fact is that the e20 costs a whopping 7.0 - 8.5 lakhs outside of Delhi (i.e. cities where it doesn't receive the same subsidy).

Link to Full News Article

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...w/19040907.cms


Ha, I thought the 5.96L on road itself was expensive, and now I see this complete picture.

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The vehicle, which uses a lithium ion battery and promises a run of 100 kms on a single charge, has been priced at an aggressive Rs 5.96 lakh (on-road), which perhaps makes it the world's cheapest electric car.
Good luck E2O.
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Old 19th March 2013, 18:30   #170
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

Just went down to VVC motors to check out the e2o. They had a couple of cars being washed and cleaned. The sales rep could not offer a test drive today since they were preparing for a "formal" launch in Hyderabad, but we did sit in the car, moved to the rear seat and did a visual check. Overall impression, it looks like a well-built car, especially compared to the Reva.

Then came the question of price !!! It comes to Rs.787,849 (T0) and Rs.828,003 (T2). I could not but burst out laughing. The sales guy went in and got someone who looked like his manager and I asked him how many did he honestly hope to sell? He shuffled, smiled and offered me a test drive at my convenience. And on that "happy" note, we parted.
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Old 19th March 2013, 18:34   #171
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

Unlike a laptop, both temperature and SOC of an Electric Vehicle battery are monitored & managed and this enables it to have a much longer life.

Same for NiMH...10 y.o Priuses are still running with the same pack. Check this bhpian's review

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...0-000-kms.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeep108 View Post
All presumptions. By then the battery pack would end up costing Rs. 3,00,000/- with inflation. Also realistically battery life may not be more than 4-5 years. Lithium ion cell phone batteries do not last more than 2-3 years and normal lead-acid batteries about 3-4.

So in my view battery cost alone = Rs. 2,00,000/5 years or Rs. 40,000/year or say Rs. 3,500/- per month.

Now for running costs. Based on practical effective about 60 km range and charging time of 5 hours, power used will be 10 units (2 units/hr x 5). 2 units is minimum presumed since it requires a 15A plug point. At cost of residential power of say Rs. 5/- per unit that works out to Rs. 50/- or Re 1/- per km. Now when power itself is a big problem in most areas and supplemented by DG sets, then cost can be much higher. So one is burning diesel to charge an electric car! May as well use a diesel car?

Total running can be estimated at 1,000 km (50 x 20) per month. So variable cost is say Re 1/- to 1.5/km and fixed cost is Rs. 3.5/km leading to a total of Rs. 4.50 - Rs. 5.00. So saving is hardly very much and for this the user has to make huge compromises of convenience, limited use, possibility of getting stranded, etc. I believe Clarkson had done an episode with the Nissan Leaf against a VW small diesel.

Yes, pollution is reduced but not really - it is only shifted to the power plant or DG Set. Add to that lithium is very toxic and one of the rare earths.

I am not biased in any way, simply pointing out that the technology has a long way to go to be really economic or practical and to actually save the environment. Probably Mahindra ought to have put a couple of high efficiency solar panels on the roof/bonnet to also charge it during the day in the sun when parked at work.

Last edited by Mpower : 20th March 2013 at 22:22.
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Old 19th March 2013, 23:43   #172
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

I just fail to understand why they price these cars so high. Does it really cost so much to manufacture them, compared to a conventional car?

They just spent years to develop this one, and position it in a way where it is killed on day 1! At the end of the day, they are selling a mode of personal transport and need to compete with similar products. Not many will pay the premium to be environment friendly.
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Old 20th March 2013, 10:18   #173
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

Mahindra has launched another white elephant! First spend s 7-8 lacs and then find uninterrupted electricity supply for 5 hours (IIRC if you charge battery for short durations, it affects battery life) Replace battery after a few years by paying Rs 1.5 lacs (Which if you put in a FD would buy you more than 25 litr diesel,i.e 400-450 kms every month for free on interest alone without touching the principal).

You can't go more than a claimed 100 km at one go and then wait for 5 hrs to get it fully charged. It's more like a toy for the rich. The initial high cost could be justified only if the running cost was genuinely low without riders like high battery replacement cost.

Why should it cost more than a petrol hatch of similar size? I don't think electric vehicles pay as many duties as a regular car does.

Mahindra is looking at another Reva as far as sales go!

Last edited by rock75 : 20th March 2013 at 10:20.
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Old 20th March 2013, 10:24   #174
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkollar View Post
You can depreciate 80% of the value per year, which means you can almost write off the cost of car in just two years. At 30% income tax rate, this can be a huge saving in tax out-go.

So, if you buy a car at Rs.6lacs, your tax saving first year alone will be Rs. 1,44,000/-
Looks like the savings will be even bigger since the E2O is much more expensive outside Delhi. Looks like a good option if you own a company and looking for a small car for city use and have access to cheap electricity.
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Old 20th March 2013, 10:36   #175
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeep108 View Post
All presumptions. By then the battery pack would end up costing Rs. 3,00,000/- with inflation. Also realistically battery life may not be more than 4-5 years. Lithium ion cell phone batteries do not last more than 2-3 years and normal lead-acid batteries about 3-4.

So in my view battery cost alone = Rs. 2,00,000/5 years or Rs. 40,000/year or say Rs. 3,500/- per month.

Now for running costs. Based on practical effective about 60 km range and charging time of 5 hours, power used will be 10 units (2 units/hr x 5). 2 units is minimum presumed since it requires a 15A plug point. At cost of residential power of say Rs. 5/- per unit that works out to Rs. 50/- or Re 1/- per km. Now when power itself is a big problem in most areas and supplemented by DG sets, then cost can be much higher. So one is burning diesel to charge an electric car! May as well use a diesel car?

Total running can be estimated at 1,000 km (50 x 20) per month. So variable cost is say Re 1/- to 1.5/km and fixed cost is Rs. 3.5/km leading to a total of Rs. 4.50 - Rs. 5.00. So saving is hardly very much and for this the user has to make huge compromises of convenience, limited use, possibility of getting stranded, etc. I believe Clarkson had done an episode with the Nissan Leaf against a VW small diesel.

Yes, pollution is reduced but not really - it is only shifted to the power plant or DG Set. Add to that lithium is very toxic and one of the rare earths.

I am not biased in any way, simply pointing out that the technology has a long way to go to be really economic or practical and to actually save the environment. Probably Mahindra ought to have put a couple of high efficiency solar panels on the roof/bonnet to also charge it during the day in the sun when parked at work.

I agree with you only on the last point. In fact, I wondered why none of the EV manufacturers have built in a solar panel on top. Surely parked in a sunny area, it can keep charging itself, instead of getting all hot!

The chance of lithium-ion battery prices going up (inflation) is almost NIL. In past 3 years, the Lion battery prices have been coming down, while lead acid has been going up. The reason is simple - Lion didn't have scale, as the manufacturing scales prices will go down. It also had extraction bottlenecks that is being addressed. Worldwide prices are anticipated to go down by half in 5 years.

Lithium-Ion is no more harmful than many other chemical substances that we use on everyday basis - plastic, soap, pesticides etc. Lead acid is equally harmful, but that hasn't stopped you from having a battery in your car, instead of cranking it to switch on? These elements can be recycled.

If one wants to make a case for something is bad, it can be made of Food too!

EVs will succeed not just because it is environmentally better, but that's the only viable technology for next century. You can't keep burning fuel that'll run out in near future<period>.
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Old 20th March 2013, 10:48   #176
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

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Mahindra has launched another white elephant!
EVs have a different TCO than regular cars. They are not white elephants, they end up costing same (or less) than regular cars if you take 6-10yr ownership cycle.

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Mahindra is looking at another Reva as far as sales go!
Sadly this is quite possible. Not many people would plonk down large money for a longer term benefit.

Most folks do not realize the pleasure of driving a EV is entirely different than a IC engine car. EVs by nature are highly suited for start-go city traffic ; not so much for highway rides.

If one needs to compare E2O, it shouldn't be with other regular hatchbacks, it should be with Automatics. You can't have Diesel Automatic, and the petrol consumption of an AT will always be higher, making it an elephant too!

The biggest disadvantage of an EV is - it is an unknown quantity and people won't want to plonk down a large amount unless it is proven. So, initially it is folks who don't mind low resale value who'd buy these.

I for one would buy this gladly - except I hate the quality of Indian made cars. I wish a good EV is offered by Toyota or Nissan in India.
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Old 20th March 2013, 10:59   #177
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

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Originally Posted by sandeep108 View Post
All presumptions. By then the battery pack would end up costing Rs. 3,00,000/- with inflation.
Check these URLs for the evidence of decline of price in W/$.


http://sufiy.blogspot.in/2011/01/lit...-deutsche.html

http://www.ilsr.org/wp-content/uploa...cted-costs.png

Current costs of Lithium-Ion cells range between US$400-600 for Kwh. But, it is expected to crash by almost half within next 5-6yrs.

Even if the US$/Rs rates go up a bit, it won't go up as much as double (i.e. Rs.110/$). Most likely scenario is about Rs.70/$ in 5yrs, if our economy doesn't grow at 8-10%.

So, effectively Lithium-Ion prices will still come down by 30% of what it is today. Which means Mahindra should be able to offer the battery pack 5 years from now at about Rs. 1,10,000 (considering it is offering it at Rs.1,50,000 now).
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Old 20th March 2013, 11:18   #178
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

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Originally Posted by hkollar View Post
EVs will succeed not just because it is environmentally better, but that's the only viable technology for next century. You can't keep burning fuel that'll run out in near future<period>.
We have already run out of electricity in most states, with power cuts running into hours in some.

Exactly how will they provide the additional electricity required to keep this technology viable? Especially when some states are even proposing to start penalising a/c users by way of an additional cess on the bill because they simply cannot meet the power demands during summer when these a/cs are used.

One may argue that the power requirements of an a/c and an electric car are very different, and so it may be. However the moot point remains that in order for this technology to be viable on any scale, the additional volumes of energy required to be available on the grid will be huge.

It is difficult to see that happening when we are unable to provide electricity for our existing requirements. That too in cities - if you go to villages, most of them still do not have electricity most of the time.

EVs therefore only have a reason to exist if:

(1) There is adequate amount of surplus energy on the grid after meeting current requirements, or at least the capacity to produce more such energy.

AND

(2) If such energy is produced from renewable sources - if you're going to burn fossil fuels in a central location to produce power, it beats the purpose entirely.
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Old 20th March 2013, 13:57   #179
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
We have already run out of electricity in most states, with power cuts running into hours in some.

Exactly how will they provide the additional electricity required to keep this technology viable? Especially when some states are even proposing to start penalising a/c users by way of an additional cess on the bill because they simply cannot meet the power demands during summer when these a/cs are used.

One may argue that the power requirements of an a/c and an electric car are very different, and so it may be. However the moot point remains that in order for this technology to be viable on any scale, the additional volumes of energy required to be available on the grid will be huge.

It is difficult to see that happening when we are unable to provide electricity for our existing requirements. That too in cities - if you go to villages, most of them still do not have electricity most of the time.

EVs therefore only have a reason to exist if:

(1) There is adequate amount of surplus energy on the grid after meeting current requirements, or at least the capacity to produce more such energy.

AND

(2) If such energy is produced from renewable sources - if you're going to burn fossil fuels in a central location to produce power, it beats the purpose entirely.
Many states have witnessed power cuts ranging from 8-14 hours esp in summers. And this myth about oil running out is false propaganda. Oil is not running out atleast not in our lifetime. In fact majority of the oil deposit may still not have been discovered!

If oil is running out so will coal, what will happen to thermal power stations?

For any technology to be sustainable, it has to be cheap to produce and sell, convenient to use and easily available everywhere. EVs fail at all these counts and they cannot replace the fuel run vehicles. Whatever vehicle takes hours to refill (Recharge)and then runs for only 100 kms at one go, requires access to a scarce resource with an uncertain supply (electricity)and costs Rs 8 lacs is destined to be a failure.
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Old 20th March 2013, 14:33   #180
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Default Re: SCOOP : Detailed Reva NXR pictures. UPDATE: Badged as the "E2O"

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I agree with you only on the last point. In fact, I wondered why none of the EV manufacturers have built in a solar panel on top. Surely parked in a sunny area, it can keep charging itself, instead of getting all hot!
I thought the Prius does have a Solar Panel on top, that keeps the car ventilated and relatively cool, when parked. I know Prius is not a pure EV, but a Hybrid, but the concept should have a similar implementation across both.

Having said that, does anyone have any news of Prius prices getting rationalized anytime in the foreseeable future. That, IMO, is a wonderful car for India and the World.

Last edited by roy_libran : 20th March 2013 at 14:35.
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