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Old 16th August 2011, 13:24   #121
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Excuse me but what understanding of a Generally Accepted Accounting Principles ( GAAP) whether US or Indian or EU IRFS&IAS have to do with the business strategy ?

AFAIK GAAP will help you understand only balance sheets , P&L accounts and Cash flow statements but will never tell you anything about business decisions or strategy.

As a prudent strategy no company forces one Business unit to be customer of another.I work in Samsung , Samsung electronics is 120 billion $ but semiconductor BU is free to sell components to Apple and similarly Mobile divison is free to buy processors from TI,nVidea , Qualcomm etc. same goes for any other component,

TCS is a different company from Tata-Motors the only thing common between them is Tata brand for which they pay 1% Royalty to Tata Sons.
While more then 70% of TCS is still owned by Tata Sons. Tata Sons have very small shareholding in TML ( near to 24%) and total holdings of various Tata trusts is close to 34.84%.

A bit OT:

The Tata Group is a very loosely held conglomerate. Due to this only in the last decade or so, the Tata group has raised its shareholding in its public companies to over 25%, through its holding companies, mainly Tata Sons Limited and Tata Investment Corp Limited. This does not include the direct shareholdings of the number of Tata Trusts, who own about of Tata sons itself. Even though over three quarter of Tata companies are yet to be listed, but only a few make up most of the stake. Just the three bigs, Tata Steel, Tata Motors, and TCS have more than 60 billion dollars, of the total 75billion dollar revenue

The parent company, ie Tata Sons Ltd, has 2/3rd of its shares held by the Tata trusts. A few Tata family members own about 2-3% only. Tata companies crosshold about 15%.

The only real outside share holding of which is held by the Shapporji Pallonji Group at 18.5%. Making the rarely seen Mr Pallonji Mistry,one of the richest human beings in the world today with a networth of 9billion dollars. Though He and his family have held shares in Tata Sons almost since its inception, they have rarely exercised any control, giving him the name "The Phantom of Bombay House".
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Old 19th August 2011, 19:23   #122
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

To beef up the sagging sales of the Tata Nano, Mr Ratan Tata has embarked upon tours to meet customers and get the feedback first hand. He has been to Pune before commencing his Nagpur trip yesterday. Here at Nagpur, he visited the two dealerships yesterday and spoke to Nano owners.The owners gave their feedbacks one suggesting that more goodies be provided with the higher versions. One said an automatic variant would be apt.The general complaint was that luggage space is too less.
Mr Tata said the goodies cannot be added and the automatic version would not cut ice with budget car buyers.Tata Motors he said is toying the idea of further price cuts and is looking for ways to reduce the price.
Tata is interested in reaching out to more buyers in rural areas and they are to open standalone Nano dealerships if need be.They will open one in Katol, 70 kms from Nagpur.
Their find is that the Nano is reaching homes as a second car in upper middle class and richer homes but Tata Motors is targeting upgrades from two wheelers for whom the car was originally meant for.
Ratanji's next tour will be to Lucknow the report says.
Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!-dsc07961.jpg
The Times of India<br /> <a href=Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!-dsc07962.jpg <a href=Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!-dsc07963.jpg
The Hitavada<br />
Press corps were not allowed a free hand at these two meets and one news report says that even bouncers were kept to pounce upon, if need be!<img src=

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 19th August 2011 at 19:50.
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Old 19th August 2011, 21:02   #123
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Default Re: TATA motors (excluding JLR) sales continue to drop

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Originally Posted by maxbhp View Post
  • It would require more sweat and better R&D to know whats the best and still produce something aimed at the mass market when keeping costing in picture.
  • Am sure someone involved in R&D will be able to educate us better. Even Bugatti Engineers won't be able to bring out a Nano.
  • What ever you say Tata has done a great job with Nano. Their problem lies not in R&D but non confirmation to stipulated production quality.
  • This is a curse of most of the manufacturing units based soley on Indian customer base coz we are willing to compromise. Those units that concentrate on exports have matured faster.
Your joking right? Dacia was designed for Eastern Europe by Renault and outsells the Nano. Yes it's more expensive but it's also a bigger seller and a bigger car. Desigining something like a Nano is simply about removing stuff you don't need and compromising the design. As Ratan Tata said, it's about using 3 bolt's instead of 4. Are you seriously saying JLR could'nt work that one out if they had to?

Building Nano's will get TATA nowhere. There's no money in it. If TATA want's to grow into a world player it needs to compete with Ford and co. Not slug it out at the bottom end of the market.

VW and the rest of the world are about to turn up on India's doorstep and are already planning new car factories to jump over India's tarrif walls. Once they arrive they will bring their quality and very often 100+ year's of experience to India to take on and beat TATA.

If TATA don't want to see their market share collapse over the next 10 years they need to start making cars to compete with Kia that can sell globally. Designing a dashboard for a Ford Focus is much more complex than designing a dash board for a Nano.

TATA should gear up for volume production and exports out of India to the rest of the world, but let Jaguar Land Rover accelerate the company into the fast lane by designing a range to compete with Kia and co. Long term TATA should design cars in India, but it needs to get things moving first.

I see Mahindra and Mahindra has also just over taken TATA as India's biggest Auto maker.

Last edited by Tstag : 19th August 2011 at 21:06.
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Old 19th August 2011, 21:15   #124
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

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Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
Also, the Nano with its strange sounding engine and all those news about fire et all have not helped Tata's image at all.
When Honda Activa was launched, it was the first 4-stroke scooter and it sounded very strange. Now we are used to it. I am sure Nano's sound is not a problem. More so because the engine is in the back. so by the time you hear its sound, the car is gone.

As for the Nano fire incident, for heaven's sake, search the net and see the number of premium cars that had caught fire. Do some study on how many Nanos caught fire out of how many manufactured vis-a-vis how many Ferraris, BMWs, Porsches, Mercs caught fire out of how many manufactured. Why do you guys keep ranting so much against Tata cars?
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Old 20th August 2011, 18:58   #125
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Default Re: TATA motors (excluding JLR) sales continue to drop

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Originally Posted by Tstag View Post
Building Nano's will get TATA nowhere. There's no money in it. If TATA want's to grow into a world player it needs to compete with Ford and co. Not slug it out at the bottom end of the market.

Designing a dashboard for a Ford Focus is much more complex than designing a dash board for a Nano.

TATA should gear up for volume production and exports out of India to the rest of the world, but let Jaguar Land Rover accelerate the company into the fast lane by designing a range to compete with Kia and co. Long term TATA should design cars in India, but it needs to get things moving first.

I see Mahindra and Mahindra has also just over taken TATA as India's biggest Auto maker.
IMO you are a bit harsh on TATA.

By doing the Nano, TML demonstrated its capabilities and not some goof up. I was part of the Tata's engineering team then, and I take pride in stating that it is one of the best innovatve product to have happened in the line of ABS, ESP, airbags, etc. Remember if Nano had a possibility we would have seen everyone make one. It is like an Picasso painting, you would not even throw a dime now, but some time later everyone will look in awe at it.

Designing a dash board for any vehicle from a Nano to an Rolls Royce involves the same complexity and challenge. There are three dimensions to a product - Cost, Quality & Reliability. And any thing designed, need to satisfy all the three targets. Just think the Nano's dash board doesn't melt down in the sun light / shatter to pieces every 10k km. Obviously the fourth dimensions - Aspiration / Brand Value / Snob Value is what really makes a product attractive and admirable. So just take the mis conception that making a Nano is just so easy and not so worthwhile of your mind.

Always look JLR as a separate entity out of TML. It is just like Mini / Rolls Royce for BMW, Infiniti for Nissan, Ferrari / Alfa Romeo for Fiat. Remember, the brand value and brand recall against each is independent and that is how each group is handling them. This not retains the reputation of each brand but also gives the customers the much needed trust. Tata is seen as an VFM customer, can we associate this property to a Jag / Land Rover (OMG!!!). Respect the brands as they are. JLRs' technologies are bound by individual IPRs' and TML will respect them. By over taking a companys' patented technologies, because you have bought it would mean you are a leech.

The vision of TML (or other Indian OEMs for that matter) is not just becoming a global player, but to reach to the masses. And those masses, are in the bottom of the pyramid. A company increases its sales not by choosing customers, it does by making its products appeal to them. A guy buying a merc / BMW / Jag, etc is not in that zone.

IMHO opinion a car maker should make products that could be affordable to the masses. Cars / bikes should not be a entity of luxury, and that is what drives a Nano / M800 / Alto, etc.

I believe as of now TML stands third in overall passenger car sales, and an unbeatable numero uno in CV sales. M&M are the monopoly in the UV segments alone and of course, they world number 1 in tractor sales. I would like to understand your statement on this, can you explain it please.
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Old 20th August 2011, 19:03   #126
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

Another blow to TATA's

With the economic gloom enveloping the developed markets, the auto market equations are changing and it has been reported that Sport utility vehicle major Mahindra & Mahindra on Friday surpassed Tata Motors’ market capitalisation to become India's most valued auto company, according to a report in Business Standard. According to the report, while M&M's market cap stood at Rs 44,150 crore, Tata Motors market cap eroded to Rs 38,402 crore, pushing it to the fourth spot among the auto pack after Bajaj Auto and Hero MotoCorp.

http://http://www.wheelsunplugged.co...x?newsid=10938
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Old 20th August 2011, 20:35   #127
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

Market cap shows more of what the investor's feel about the company and that too in the short term. And in the present situation there is a tougher time ahead of Tata Motors. Tata Motors depends heavily on the international market, where a 2nd recession is looming on the horizon. Also almost 20% of Tata Motors shares are traded outside India, where stocks have taken a serious beating. Add to this the fact that their Indian passenger car business is not doing great, obviously there is a fall in market cap.

But the fact remains that Tata Motors is a much larger company than M&M, with more than 5 times the revenue of M&M. Tata Motors profits are almost half of what M&M's revenues are.
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Old 20th August 2011, 22:31   #128
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Excuse me but what understanding of a Generally Accepted Accounting Principles ( GAAP) whether US or Indian or EU IRFS&IAS have to do with the business strategy ?

AFAIK GAAP will help you understand only balance sheets , P&L accounts and Cash flow statements but will never tell you anything about business decisions or strategy.

As a prudent strategy no company forces one Business unit to be customer of another.I work in Samsung , Samsung electronics is 120 billion $ but semiconductor BU is free to sell components to Apple and similarly Mobile divison is free to buy processors from TI,nVidea , Qualcomm etc. same goes for any other component,

TCS is a different company from Tata-Motors the only thing common between them is Tata brand for which they pay 1% Royalty to Tata Sons.
While more then 70% of TCS is still owned by Tata Sons. Tata Sons have very small shareholding in TML ( near to 24%) and total holdings of various Tata trusts is close to 34.84%.

I wrote the definition of conglomerate so that subsidiaries could be distinguished from business units and as you very aptly pointed out there is a evident differentiation between strategy and accounts but alas! as pointed out by him maybe we should take a crash course and dare to think beyond IIM s to comprehend mr mohandas s logic
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Old 21st August 2011, 23:12   #129
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Default Re: TATA motors (excluding JLR) sales continue to drop

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Originally Posted by Tstag View Post
Your joking right? Dacia was designed for Eastern Europe by Renault and outsells the Nano. Yes it's more expensive but it's also a bigger seller and a bigger car. Desigining something like a Nano is simply about removing stuff you don't need and compromising the design. As Ratan Tata said, it's about using 3 bolt's instead of 4. Are you seriously saying JLR could'nt work that one out if they had to?

Building Nano's will get TATA nowhere. There's no money in it. If TATA want's to grow into a world player it needs to compete with Ford and co. Not slug it out at the bottom end of the market.

VW and the rest of the world are about to turn up on India's doorstep and are already planning new car factories to jump over India's tarrif walls. Once they arrive they will bring their quality and very often 100+ year's of experience to India to take on and beat TATA.

If TATA don't want to see their market share collapse over the next 10 years they need to start making cars to compete with Kia that can sell globally. Designing a dashboard for a Ford Focus is much more complex than designing a dash board for a Nano.

TATA should gear up for volume production and exports out of India to the rest of the world, but let Jaguar Land Rover accelerate the company into the fast lane by designing a range to compete with Kia and co. Long term TATA should design cars in India, but it needs to get things moving first.

I see Mahindra and Mahindra has also just over taken TATA as India's biggest Auto maker.
Am sorry but I would request you to stick to a professional tone of chat.

First, I do not joke.

Second, I come from a manufacturing background and am quite good and costing and I know what I have spoken right till the cost of nuts and bolts.

Thirdly, Please do not think others are lacking brains to think what you have stated.

Fourth, Tata has the worst designs after moving out of IDEA.

Fifth , statement of Mahindra has no relevance in what I had stated earlier. The QC team of Mahindra and product development team maintains higher level of workmanship than Tata and it shows.

I work with a company who supplies steel to most of the major car manufacturers and am having a "fair" bit of idea on costing.

And FYI , Dacia was not designed by Renault. Rather Dacia logan is sold as Renault in most countries reason clearly being brand acceptance.

Dacia Logan sells well coz for European standard its like an entry level car.

Dacia Logan is like Nano in eastern europe not in terms of the size or the segment of the car but the car that can be afforded by masses. Simple. If india becomes developed , even we will be able to afford higher standard of living and better cars. Then you can see Nano's doing well in the next bunch of developing countries.

I may be totally wrong

btw when Ratan Tata said using 3 instead of 4 bolts, its not literally its after seeing Factor of safety in a permissible limit and re-engineering the basic structure to support on 3 bolts.

Do you have any kind of idea the level at which ford is operating in terms of manufacturing excellence ? Its one of the best units in its class . Their QC team is as stringent as Toyota.

Its right when you said there is no money in Nano. Their costing went skyrocketing with circumstance of events but please do not forget that in Geneva motor show Tata got a big branding advantage with 1 lac car of 2500$ car. Infact it was the first time they were seriously noticed in Geneva show other than in 1999 when they showed Indica.

VW might have 100years of experience but please don't forget where Hyundai is now, Their reliability level is better than both Skoda and VW to my knowledge.

Age does not mean anything. Its the ability to confirming to a production quality that decides the growth of a product.
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Old 17th September 2011, 02:17   #130
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

Tata Indigo Manza - Celebration Edition.

Had 1st mention it here : Tata Manza LE (Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!)
(Brochure uploaded below)

Launched on 15th September 2011.

Only 1000 unites produced country wide.

Priced at 25000/- Rs. (approx.) HIGHER than current top end version (Elan).

Launched to celebrate 2 years of 'Manza'.

ONLY Diesel version available :
& ONLY 2 colours - Tyrian Wine & Dew White for this edition.

Addition Features: ( + the existing features of the Elan version)
  • Interior colour - Black & Beige combination - instead of the Burgundy & Beige
  • Leather Feel Seats
  • Reverse Parking sensors (Audio Only)
  • Celebration Edition badge on the C pillar

Rest - HUGE & Extensive list of features remain the same :

ABS + EBD + Airbags (2)
Bluetooth
Steering controls
Alloy wheels (4)
Chrome at multiple spots
Rear defogger
Rear + Front Foglamps
etc. etc. etc.


Ex-showroom price in Mumbai is 8,11,893 Rs.

On-road - Mumbai registration is : 9,13, 785 Rs.

To which -
Wasan Motors is offering a 15,000 Rs discount
Goodies worth 5k (the usual Mattings, Mudflaps, Garware sunfilm, Car cover).

Exchange bonus: Non-Tata Car - 20k. Tata Car 25k.

Some new schemes by Tata Motor Finance & HDFC (respectively) for less downpayment and better finance options.

All this is what I have collected from Tata Motors Head Office + Concorde Motors + Wasan Motors.

NO test-drive or display model for this particular edition available YET. Will be coming in 5 days - since about 50 units manufactured and ready to be dispatched from the plant.

Delivery in 15 days.

Yes - I have booked mine.


Finally - after MONTHS of reading through T-bhp,
loads of confusion,
loads of test-drives,
a few arguments (@ home),
a few letters to the company
1 (Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!)
2 (Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!)
,
a Manza scale model (Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!)
- had finally decided on the Manza - but just could not stand the Purple interiors.
A relief from that finally.
But yet - NO black exterior colour !!!

Will upload pics, review and detailed long term ownership report as time permits - but FOR SURE.

Till then - have uploaded ORIGINAL pdf file of the brochure sent by the company.

Attachment 610539
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Old 17th September 2011, 05:33   #131
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

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Originally Posted by Dr.Suraj View Post
Tata Indigo Manza - Celebration Edition.

.

Attachment 610539
Congratulations Doc. Welcome to the Vista/Manza Family. In fact one of the main reasons we boought the Vista was the TD of the Manza because Vista was not available for TD. The Mana interiors are way better than any car in the class right now.

And yes 26000 kms and my Vista does not rattle!
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Old 17th September 2011, 08:03   #132
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The Nano was revolutionary in concept, OK in execution (Too close a reminder to the Renault 2CV) and terrible in marketing and service.

Branding wise, a TATA car has become the New Ambassador - a little infra-dig for most of us. Service standards are appalling.

If TATA can get their act in order, their cars will do well.
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Old 17th September 2011, 11:47   #133
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

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Originally Posted by BusyBee View Post
The Nano was revolutionary in concept, OK in execution (Too close a reminder to the Renault 2CV) and terrible in marketing and service.
Yesterday there was this article in the Economic Times about the Tata Nano.

Unleashing innovation: Why Tata Nano is a no-no and who will be king of Cyber-ia - The Economic Times

The article refers to the blog written to this blog written almost 2 years ago !!

Is the Tata Nano Really "The People's Car"? - Scott Anthony - Harvard Business Review



I completely agree that Nano is an engineering Marvel that is suffering due to awful marketing and wrong product positioning.

My two cents.

1. Looking at the Nano sale numbers off late + the news about inventory pile-up + discounts to employees/shareholders, it's becoming pretty clear that Nano will not end up being the People's Car (due to various reasons like perceptions, snob value, status, etc..).
2. It's mostly being bought by folks as a second car when 1 or 2 members needs to go for a quick city spin. We can assume that these guys already own a bigger (mostly sedans +) cars and already know a thing or two about cars/service. Hence they will be more particular about the service/niggles, etc..
3. Checking various Nano feedback from other threads in this forum (again most of them have it as their second car), the most common ones seem to be with exhaust note, service quality, etc...
4. Sincerely hope that TML concentrates on retaining these customers atleast, by making the necessary changes. I'm sure they understand that the competition is only going to get fierce with almost all the major Auto manufacturers setting shop in India (not to mention about the upcoming Hyundai Eon right in the Nano's backyard).

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Old 17th September 2011, 13:27   #134
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Default Re: Tata's lean run in passenger car sales!!

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Service standards are appalling.
You had some bad experience ? Or just hear say ? Can you elaborate more ? I am really really trying to find out what is so wrong about TASC. Hence the question.
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Old 17th September 2011, 15:17   #135
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You had some bad experience ? Or just hear say ?
Not hearsay. I dont own a TATA myself but have friends who do and have accompanied them frequently on problem solving missions. The trouble seems to the quality of their service personnel and their approach towards the customer.

Customers put with small problems gracefully if the service personnel take the trouble to listen, empathize and then sort out the problem. Else it just leads to sore feelings and an angry customer is the worst PR disaster.

Must emphasize that the problem is not uniquely TATA dealers but that of the industry which is growing too fast and too soon leading to a shortage of good service advisors. VW dealers are little better but their products are well built, leaving less room for conflict. Surprisingly Maruti has got it right.
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