Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st July 2011, 09:37   #46
Senior - BHPian
 
Gansan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chennai
Posts: 3,427
Thanked: 875 Times
Default Re: The 'Synthetic' Way: How Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
AFAIK,modern diesel mills require a minimum of API-CH4 and above.Atleast this is what my i20 manual says.There is no mention of ACEA A3/B4 specifications in the manual.This oil does not meet any of the API specifications

I don't have info about elantra,magnum,scorpio so cant comment on their requirements.
There are Gasoline engine specific oils that can also be used for diesels. And Diesel engine oils that can also be used for Petrol engines. But I would not use such an oil for my Alto. Reason is, the diesel specific oil will exceed the specs of the MGO, but will not match Shell Helix HX5 or Ultra.

I would imagine it to be the same about using Helix Ultra for a diesel engine. It will easily surpass the specs of the factory fill oil, but how will it compare with a diesel specific mineral or synthetic oil?
Gansan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2011, 10:04   #47
Senior - BHPian
 
sagarpadaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 2,632
Thanked: 1,256 Times
Default Re: The 'Synthetic' Way: How Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
There are Gasoline engine specific oils that can also be used for diesels. And Diesel engine oils that can also be used for Petrol engines. But I would not use such an oil for my Alto. Reason is, the diesel specific oil will exceed the specs of the MGO, but will not match Shell Helix HX5 or Ultra.

I would imagine it to be the same about using Helix Ultra for a diesel engine. It will easily surpass the specs of the factory fill oil, but how will it compare with a diesel specific mineral or synthetic oil?

That's what i am telling.Even though the helix ultra cover says it can be used in TC'd diesels,it cant be used in modern common rail ones because most of the common rail diesels i know require API-CH4 and above rating.But this oil does not have any API rating on it.AFAIK ACEA A3/B4 rating is used for petorl engines and not diesels.A synthetic oil specifically for modern diesel engines like Mobil Delvac1 will surpass the this multipurpose engine oil(Helix ultra) in all aspects.
sagarpadaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2011, 10:34   #48
BHPian
 
raj.barcode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 678
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: The 'Synthetic' Way: How Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
AFAIK ACEA A3/B4 rating is used for petorl engines and not diesels.A synthetic oil specifically for modern diesel engines like Mobil Delvac1 will surpass the this multipurpose engine oil(Helix ultra) in all aspects.

Since you don't know what A3/B4 stands for here is some material for you to read,

"ACEA
This is the European equivalent of API (US) and is more specific in what the performance of the oil actually is. A = Petrol, B = Diesel and C = Catalyst compatible or low SAPS (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur).
Unlike API the ACEA specs are split into performance/application catagories as follows:
A1 Fuel economy petrol
A2
Standard performance level (now obsolete)
A3
High performance and/or extended drain
A4
Reserved for future use in certain direct injection engines
A5
Combines A1 fuel economy with A3 performance
B1 Fuel economy diesel
B2
Standard performance level (now obsolete)
B3
High performance and/or extended drain
B4
For direct injection car diesel engines
B5
Combines B1 fuel economy with B3/B4 performance
C1-04 Petrol and Light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 low SAPS, two way catalyst compatible.
C2-04
Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible.
C3-04
Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible, Higher performance levels due to higher HTHS.
Note: SAPS = Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur.
Put simply, A3/B3, A5/B5 and C3 oils are the better quality, stay in grade performance oils."


Source: "http://www.driverstechnology.co.uk/oils.html"


I don't want to debate with anyone; You can go ahead and use company mineral oil, By the way last time i checked A.S.S of hyundai uses same grade of oil for elantra and i20 when it goes for oil change


PS: It all depends if you area ferrari fan or a merc fan LOL ,

Last edited by raj.barcode : 21st July 2011 at 10:51.
raj.barcode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2011, 10:52   #49
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kanpur
Posts: 7,161
Thanked: 3,756 Times
Default Re: The 'Synthetic' Way: How Practical?

@raj.barcode: There is no bar on using it in a diesel but it is not the same spec as a proper diesel oil in the same price band will be. I have also heard somewhere that Petrol specific oil when used for diesels are worse off than the reverse. The best course is of course to use a Diesel specific oil. One simple thing Diesel type oils have a higher detergent content. You may wish to look at http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modify...l-oil-204.html (ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil) and also http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...e-oils-53.html (All about Diesel engine oils)
sgiitk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2011, 11:11   #50
BHPian
 
raj.barcode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 678
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: The 'Synthetic' Way: How Practical?

@ sgiitk : I follow my manual which say ACEA "B4" or Api "Sj" and above, so i prefer following that and believe any company that says its oil is B4 std, I dont mind using it and more over my vehicle has run close to 1.25 lakh kms and still reaches the upper limit of the speedo very easily. (Wanna to test drive my monster; ), on these oil without any problem, till now i don't have a reason to believe i am using inferior oil, so you can use any oil and run 1.25 lakh kms and still have lower NVH levels like new car and do the speeds like i do then its good; we have more option in terms of oil to choose from

Peace and Cheers

P.S: i am not a shell or mobil Dealer

Last edited by raj.barcode : 21st July 2011 at 11:16.
raj.barcode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2011, 18:37   #51
Senior - BHPian
 
sagarpadaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 2,632
Thanked: 1,256 Times
Default Re: The 'Synthetic' Way: How Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj.barcode View Post
@ sgiitk : I follow my manual which say ACEA "B4" or Api "Sj" and above, so i prefer following that and believe any company that says its oil is B4 std, I dont mind using it and more over my vehicle has run close to 1.25 lakh kms and still reaches the upper limit of the speedo very easily. (Wanna to test drive my monster; ), on these oil without any problem, till now i don't have a reason to believe i am using inferior oil, so you can use any oil and run 1.25 lakh kms and still have lower NVH levels like new car and do the speeds like i do then its good; we have more option in terms of oil to choose from

Peace and Cheers

P.S: i am not a shell or mobil Dealer
Thanks for the clarification Raj.I didnt know about the B4 spec.But i still dont understand why the manufacturers dont specify the ACEA rating in case of diesel engines.


EDIT: Just had a look at the spec sheet from shell india website for the helix ultra.It mentions

API:SM/CF (Modern CRDi mills require CH4 and above)
ACEA:B4 (This satisfies the criterion for TC'd diesels)

So one parameter is satisfied(ACEA B4) but the other is not(API CH4).This puts a ambiguity !


Link:http://www.shell.com/home/content/in...w/helix_ultra/

Last edited by sagarpadaki : 21st July 2011 at 18:40.
sagarpadaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2011, 19:38   #52
BHPian
 
raj.barcode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 678
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: The 'Synthetic' Way: How Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Thanks for the clarification Raj.I didnt know about the B4 spec.But i still dont understand why the manufacturers dont specify the ACEA rating in case of diesel engines.


EDIT: Just had a look at the spec sheet from shell india website for the helix ultra.It mentions

API:SM/CF (Modern CRDi mills require CH4 and above)
ACEA:B4 (This satisfies the criterion for TC'd diesels)

So one parameter is satisfied(ACEA B4) but the other is not(API CH4).This puts a ambiguity !


Link:Shell Helix Ultra - India
Yes Sir, i have seen that link earlier about 4 years back when i was researching which oil to use on my skoda, and it hasn't been updated since dunno why.

These manufacturers usually take us for a ride,
For eg Sj series is for petrol but when one checks Optra magnum manual and they specify Api Sj Grade for diesel optra magnum 2.0sohc engine.

The spec above given is not 100% technically right as per API classification since "S" Series is for petrol. But both elantra and Skoda manuals had mentioned ACEA Specs so I was able to shift to Shell Helix ultra.

Coming to the oil used, SM is considered better than SJ

(source : http://www.motorexbih.com/API-SAE%20...%20Service.pdf)

(Source 2: The API Engine Oil Classification System)


and also it is known that B4 spec oil is very good for 1st and 2nd gen Crdi which elantra and optra is

I personally haven't gone through i20 manual so cannot comment in your case. Since it is the latest and 4th gen crdi (i guess) oil specifications can be different. Check with your service advisor, probably he will help out

Attaching the image from Optra manual:

The 'Synthetic' Way: How Practical?-img00398201107211929.jpg

P.S : 1.6 D stands for 1.6 dohc petrol
and 2.0 S stands for 2.0 sohc diesel
raj.barcode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2011, 20:33   #53
Senior - BHPian
 
sagarpadaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 2,632
Thanked: 1,256 Times
Default Re: The 'Synthetic' Way: How Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj.barcode View Post
Yes Sir, i have seen that link earlier about 4 years back when i was researching which oil to use on my skoda, and it hasn't been updated since dunno why.

These manufacturers usually take us for a ride,
For eg Sj series is for petrol but when one checks Optra magnum manual and they specify Api Sj Grade for diesel optra magnum 2.0sohc engine.

The spec above given is not 100% technically right as per API classification since "S" Series is for petrol. But both elantra and Skoda manuals had mentioned ACEA Specs so I was able to shift to Shell Helix ultra.

Coming to the oil used, SM is considered better than SJ

(source : http://www.motorexbih.com/API-SAE%20...%20Service.pdf)

(Source 2: The API Engine Oil Classification System)


and also it is known that B4 spec oil is very good for 1st and 2nd gen Crdi which elantra and optra is

I personally haven't gone through i20 manual so cannot comment in your case. Since it is the latest and 4th gen crdi (i guess) oil specifications can be different. Check with your service advisor, probably he will help out

Attaching the image from Optra manual:

Attachment 580669

P.S : 1.6 D stands for 1.6 dohc petrol
and 2.0 S stands for 2.0 sohc diesel

Please call me Sagar,no 'sir' D

Yes, as you said the oil manufacturers take us for a ride by giving different specifications and don't update them whrn the product is improved either.

The hyundai i20 diesel is a modern CRDI mill(Dunno which generation and all).The service center uses this very same Helix Ultra oil for both petrol and diesel cars.When i checked up the specs of ultra i found out that it does not meet the API CH4 and thought that the HASS is putting wrong oil in my car and insisted on taking my own oil(Delvac 1) during last service.Had i known this facts i would have used that oil only ! .Anyway atleast i have the peace of mind of putting the best available diesel specific synth available in the market into my car.
sagarpadaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FE Measurement - Clinical method and Practical Method vivaid Technical Stuff 52 3rd March 2013 17:40
Are Cranking Handles Practical For Starting Old Cars? anjan_c2007 Vintage Cars & Classics in India 27 6th April 2011 01:04
How practical is Audi Q5 ? spiff Luxury, Imports & Niche 11 8th June 2009 15:14
Tricks, Pranks & Practical jokes. Spinnerr Shifting gears 12 1st April 2008 13:05
Practical VFM - i10 / Swift / Logan ashishpodar Hatchbacks 17 20th November 2007 22:10


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 14:13.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks