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Old 15th July 2011, 21:42   #16
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
The SIAM has tried to clear myths about diesel as a misunderstood and polluting fuel. Thats a good effort considering that the older, ill-maintained Tata and Ashok Leyland trucks/buses, the old Matadors or the Mahindra CJ 500D/ de and nitrogen dioxide (NOx) as compared to a petrol.
So finally, neither diesel nor petrol need to be advocated as fuels, if we go by the quantity or kind of pollutants released.
Going by your post, the capex to bring diesel to the level of clean fuel of the standards being followed in Europe is substantial to put it mildly. Now my question to the diesel cars votaries is, are they willing to bear the additional cost of diesel if the refineries do incur this capex and the government frees diesel pricing as well? I doubt very much most of us will find this palatable! We shall start hearing of super profits and social responsibility of the OMCs'.
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Old 15th July 2011, 21:53   #17
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@RS_DEL agree fully, which is why auto companies stand to lose much by removal of subsidy or freeing of prices.

Right now they can sell a car that takes 80k extra to make for 100-140k extra since subsidy benefit compensates consumer who still sees this as a deal while company enjoys extra profits.
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Old 15th July 2011, 23:12   #18
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

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Originally Posted by RS_DEL View Post
Going by your post, the capex to bring diesel to the level of clean fuel of the standards being followed in Europe is substantial to put it mildly. Now my question to the diesel cars votaries is, are they willing to bear the additional cost of diesel if the refineries do incur this capex and the government frees diesel pricing as well? I doubt very much most of us will find this palatable! We shall start hearing of super profits and social responsibility of the OMCs'.
Thanks RS_DEL for giving this a thought. I am not very sure as to what will be the outcome, should the ultra low sulfur diesel come along and the subsidy element get the government's thumbs down ? Given the overheads and the wasteful expenditures our oil companies indulge in, free pricing of ultra low sulfur diesel may bring it at par with petrol prices.
I was just going through the July 2011 prices of petrol vis as vis diesel in Europe and now diesel is only marginally lesser priced than petrol (95 Octane).In some countries, both are priced nearly equally and in some, diesel is even a wee bit costlier too! So that old fact I mentioned saying diesel is much cheaper in Europe in my previous post, is no longer a thumb rule.
The only consolation and solace will remain the lower fuel consumption (kmpl) figures of the diesel car/ SUV vis-a-vis its petrol counterpart,which is a tribute to the engineering pioneered by Rudolf Diesel- the more complete combustion.
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Old 21st July 2011, 17:34   #19
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Jairam Ramesh should read this report. If this is the truth, then on earth is govt blaming SUVs and Cars as beneficiaries.
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Old 21st July 2011, 19:37   #20
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

That presentation is good as the builder-buyer agreement you sign while buying a flat (from the builder) i.e. totally one sided. Not surprising as SIAM has produced it.

- they show a lot of statistics (of CO2 & NOx & PM) as to how good the diesel is but does not give the ratio of 4W petrol to 4W diesel ratio (just cars/SUV/UVs). Nowhere do they even mention the term "SOx". Why? Because they know it will be counter-productive to them (SIAM).

- saying that a diesel is more reliable than a petrol thus lesser maintenance is very very debatable at the least.

All they want is for diesel subsidy to continue so they can laugh all they way to the bank.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
So lets say there were 100 car drivers in the country who bought 100 swift D cars, with average FE of 20kmpl
They drive 1000kms/month which means 50L of fuel/month for each i.e. 5000L of diesel consumption/month for all 100

Now all of them cannot afford swiftD and they bought petrol swift giving 13kmpl in similar conditions
Fuel consumption/ user goes 77liters

Total consumtion is now 7700 liters

India is forced to import more fuel, and give money to foreign companies.

In the "Diesel cheap unfair booo hoooo hoooo waaaaaa I want justice" guys paradise, the money is going out of country.

So tell me, from an economics point of view, how does it make sense to discourage diesel cars?

Speaking of the SUVs, in countries like USA where its gasoline(petrol all the way) people drive petrol SUVs which give 7kmpl-8kmpl.
A diesel suv gives 12kmpl in similar conditions which is 50% more than petrol.

So do we want to encourage a practice, where the country is forced to import more crude oil?

Diesel cars should be encouraged, and even excise duty should be cheaper, because if more and more people, even those driving 500kms a month buy diesel cars, overall cash balance of the country will improve, as the country is going to import less crude oil.
Your argument has many flaws -

1. Why are you assuming that a guy buying a petrol car would also run 1000kms/month? He/she could be doing 500kms/month. Now how does that affect your calculations?

2. Isn't 20kmpl for a Swift D on the higher side? 17-18kmpl should be more like it.

3. Promoting diesel and spending 80k to 1L more on the car does not make much sense for the economy too. After all, that premium you pay also goes to some foreign company (i.e. a part of it goes out of india). Maybe we shouldn't buy foreign brands at all!

4. A guy who drives less (say 500kms/month and there are many like that - especially in tier 2 cities) ends up saving that premium for diesel and also costs the country less in terms of fuel bill.

5. I have seen many people around me (colleagues & relatives) who don't give 2 hoots about driving from A to B. Why? Because they have a diesel car and it doesn't cost much to them (it's subsidized). Meanwhile our country is still paying for his/her care-free behavior. How are these guys helping reduce the fuel bills? I am quite sure there are many like them.

6. And this is a question - isn't petrol a necessary product of refining? i.e. is it possible to produce only diesel (and no petrol) from crude?

Long term solution is better public transport, less of subsidies, tax breaks for eco-friendly vehicles (less CO2/NOx/SOx/PM), better roads & more disciplined driving among others. Add to that, they should probably improve/get rid of those decade old trucks from our highways & take more stringent actions on defaulters. That will surely clean-up our air and reduce the fuel bill at the same time.


PS: I found another article from CSE on diesel here -> http://www.cseindia.org/sites/defaul.../dsl_paper.pdf. I haven't read it completely but it presents a contradicting picture from what the SIAM article says.

Last edited by asr245 : 21st July 2011 at 19:50.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 10:20   #21
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

1 kg of diesel burnt under ideal conditions will produce 2.68kg of CO2. 1 kg of petrol burnt under ideal conditions will produce 2.3kg of CO2.

So Diesel being a cleaner fuel is never an argument that the learnt masses in SIAM should never advocate to anyone. On a same capacity engine, the levels of pollution will vary based on the addition / deletions done to the exhaust treatment (catalytic converter, Particulate Filter, etc.).

If the current diesel consumption go up, then the amount of CO2 released will increase. Isn't CO2 the main contributor to the Green House Effect?

IMO the presentation seems a bit of an lobbying towards diesel vehicles. Also the subsidy for diesel is for the transport sector that serves the public (buses, trains) and for helping the farmers (irrigation pumps, tractors). Leveraging this as an oppurtunity to promote diesel vehicles for private use is not the right thing to advocate. If one can spend the extra Lakh or so on his car, then why not pay the exact price?

Also, petrol & diesel are by products from crude oil. We can't extract only one alone. Though Diesel is cheaper to extract from crude, it takes high amounts in filtering it. Hence, we can observe, diesel and petrol priced similarly in countries where there is no subsidy.

Reference: Pollution: Major Engine Pollutants

Diesel causes more pollution than petrol

ECO Travel : Petrol vs Diesel
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Old 22nd July 2011, 11:31   #22
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_DEL View Post
Going by your post, the capex to bring diesel to the level of clean fuel of the standards being followed in Europe is substantial to put it mildly. Now my question to the diesel cars votaries is, are they willing to bear the additional cost of diesel if the refineries do incur this capex and the government frees diesel pricing as well? I doubt very much most of us will find this palatable! We shall start hearing of super profits and social responsibility of the OMCs'.
Of course I'm willing to spend more for a more efficient fuel. If diesel were more expensive than petrol, I would get my diesel car a bit cheaper than it is today. Can manufacturers hike up the price simply because they can extract.

A lot of reasons why I would prefer diesel:
- cleaner fuel (burns less hydrocarbon than petrol for the same distance), which also translates to more mileage
- more torque and drivable or fun to drive
- more lasting engine
- cheaper cost of car if we compared with similarly torquey petrol sibling (see examples below)

I have intentionally excluded the cheaper cost of fuel as that is what you wanted to exclude.

There are of course more torquey gasoline engines in higher segment cars such as Fiat Linea T-jet, Skodas, mecs and bmws. But then those cars with petrol engines are priced higher than their diesel siblings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajess_in View Post
1 kg of diesel burnt under ideal conditions will produce 2.68kg of CO2. 1 kg of petrol burnt under ideal conditions will produce 2.3kg of CO2.
CO2 emissions are usually calculated per distance run, not on the amount of fuel burnt. The main reason why diesel is considered cleaner is that it can run more distance.

Last edited by opendro : 22nd July 2011 at 11:35.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 11:52   #23
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

The presentation is a little biased towards diesel cars not diesel in general. They separate pollution from diesel vehicles from diesel cars and show diesel cars pollute less. But then they generalise that to say diesel pollutes less.

Cars do come with better engine technology and hence they might be less polluting (again this is for the volume and not per vehicle).

Hope this presentation was not influenced by car makers to take advantage of diesel subsidies and push more diesel cars. You need to have the right kind of diesel fuel and engines (clean diesels) to show the advantages of diesel which is not the situation in India.

Last edited by srishiva : 22nd July 2011 at 11:54.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 12:56   #24
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by opendro View Post
Of course I'm willing to spend more for a more efficient fuel. If diesel were more expensive than petrol, I would get my diesel car a bit cheaper than it is today. Can manufacturers hike up the price simply because they can extract.

e.
My point exactly!

Provide a cleaner fuel. Sell it at a price determined by commercial considerations. Give the freedom of choice to the vehicle user to consider vehicle price, running costs etc and make a informed choice and buy petrol or a diesel as per their needs/desires. That is not happening today, is it? Every one is riding on the damn gravy train and making a bloody virtue out of it to boot!
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Old 22nd July 2011, 14:15   #25
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Great Thread, rating it 5 stars.

The real question to ask SIAM is how willing are they to Push Diesel engines if Govt of India drops all subsidies on Diesel (Free Market Pricing).
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Old 22nd July 2011, 15:13   #26
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
So lets say there were 100 car drivers in the country who bought 100 swift D cars, with average FE of 20kmpl
They drive 1000kms/month which means 50L of fuel/month for each i.e. 5000L of diesel consumption/month for all 100

Now all of them cannot afford swiftD and they bought petrol swift giving 13kmpl in similar conditions
Fuel consumption/ user goes 77liters
Total consumtion is now 7700 liters
India is forced to import more fuel, and give money to foreign companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nipunkul View Post
Interesting point tsk1979, but a common myth that crude is directly comparable to petrol/diesel. Below an extract from US Energy Information Administration: EIA Energy Kids - Oil (petroleum)
So more crude bill for indian taxpayer with more diesel cars.
Tanveer, sorry to say, but your argument is flawed.
1 gallon of oil produces 73.81 litres of Petrol and 34.82 litres of diesel. So, Petrol produced is almost 2.11 times more than the Diesel produced.
So taking your example above:
If the Petrol consumption is 7700 litres then it needs =7700/73.81 = 104 gallons of oil.
And for 5000 litres of Diesel, we would need = 5000/34.81=144 gallon of oil.
So now, using which fuel would lead us to import more oil and thus more foreign exchange outgo ?
And this when you have considered equal running of 1000km/month for both fue,l, but usually petrol car runs less than a diesel car. So the difference would be even huge.
Posting the link of the post that I made on the "Fuel Price thread"
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2363806
And also attaching here again, the processing cost working. The processing cost for all the fuel components is same and please guys it doesn't depend on the temparature. All the fuel and byproducts of crude refining are essential products and trust me all these products are refined as that is the most economical and beneficial thing to do.
SIAM Stand on Diesel cars-fuel.jpg
Am not against diesel at all, I just want all the subsidies to be removed and taxes to be rationalised.
It's after all your money and your decision on what car/fuel you want to buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
PS: I found another article from CSE on diesel here -> http://www.cseindia.org/sites/defaul.../dsl_paper.pdf. I haven't read it completely but it presents a contradicting picture from what the SIAM article says.
The economics is against providing diesel subsidy. The more subsidy continues, the more people would buy diesel vehicle, the more diesel used, the more subsidy burden on the Government.
The cleanliness of both fuel can be debated, but even though Diesel is supposedly more polluting due to the more SPMs in it.
Petrol is only costly these days because government want it to be like that, it gives them more revenue. And first please be aware of the fact that subsidy on diesel was not meant for the private vehicle consumption at the very first place.

The SIAM report presents only one side of the coin, there's more to it then what they have presented. And there's enough thread and there has been enough discussion on the same topic I suppose.
Another recent related thread is
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ol-diesel.html (*Attached* : Fuel cost calculator, including a comparison between Petrol & Diesel)

Last edited by Fordmanchau : 22nd July 2011 at 15:17.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 15:40   #27
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Great discussions here. Rating it five stars.

I think the current level of price differential may not sustain in the future if either Indian inflation or global crude oil prices comes down or at least stagnate over the next couple of years. That could be the opportunity for Govt. to take out the price control, even without any one noticing it much. If these situations doesn't happen, the present pricing could continue.

It's true that no one, even within the govt. had thought petrol price deregulation could be this successful. Maybe it has paved the way for diesel pricing in the future.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 15:51   #28
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Lightbulb Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

It is a common misperception that diesel is subsidised. It is net taxed, and the "subsidy" is simply an arithmetic outcome of the fact that the government has to compensate oil marketing companies for part of their tax payments. Purely an accounting phenomenon.

The real issue is the distortion created by the under-pricing of diesel, kerosene and LPG (and of course the over-pricing of petrol as a consequence). These price interventions skew consumption compared with the alternative of a non-discriminatory tax structure.

If there are valid reasons to have differential tax rates then we should have a carbon tax or pollution tax or something more rational than simply trying to raise revenues in a haphazard way. And diesel/kerosene/LPG prices should be allowed to float in sync with world prices, as they have done for petrol.
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Old 24th July 2011, 03:29   #29
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by nipunkul;2431442
Interesting point tsk1979, but a common myth that crude is directly comparable to petrol/diesel. Below an extract from US Energy Information Administration: [URL="http://www.eia.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=oil_home-basics"
EIA Energy Kids - Oil (petroleum)[/url]



So more crude bill for indian taxpayer with more diesel cars.
Nope. That link does not mean anything

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmx1000 View Post
@Nipunkul ,

The part you miss is that one barrel of crude produces 19 litres of gasoline AND 10 gallons of diesel. Not OR. .
Wrong again
Quote:
Originally Posted by asr245 View Post

1. Why are you assuming that a guy buying a petrol car would also run 1000kms/month? He/she could be doing 500kms/month. Now how does that affect your calculations?
.
I do not think that people drive more because they have a diesel car. They have a diesel car because they drive more.
So if you office is 20kms away, you won't stop coming to office if you have a petrol car, will you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordmanchau View Post
Tanveer, sorry to say, but your argument is flawed.
1 gallon of oil produces 73.81 litres of Petrol and 34.82 litres of diesel. So, Petrol produced is almost 2.11 times more than the Diesel produced.
So taking your example above:
If the Petrol consumption is 7700 litres then it needs =7700/73.81 = 104 gallons of oil.
And for 5000 litres of Diesel, we would need = 5000/34.81=144 gallon of oil.
Wrong again.
First of all I wonder where are people pulling numbers from. Well its a statistics thread, so maybe thats why.
Anyways, there are many kinds of crude oils. Sweet light crude(most expensive), and heavy crude, much cheaper. The heavier stuff gives you more diesel.
But thats a moot point. . I think we have oil refineries right.
Why do you spend millions of dollars on a refinery?
The reason is simple, you tailor your end products depending upon what you need.
The figures people pulling of wikipedia and US energy department websites are skewed towards petrol because they produce more petrol. The reason is that due to large number of cars, petrol is more in demand.
For petrol, refining is more difficult but for diesel, sulfur removal is difficult, so cost of production comes to same.

however, diesel economies can make do with much cheaper "dirty crude".
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Old 24th July 2011, 08:54   #30
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

The objective of the SIAM paper is not clear. Maybe they wanted to preempt the government from removing the subsidies for diesel for the private vehicles. What interest has SIAM in promoting diesel in an one-sided manner ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Wrong again.
First of all I wonder where are people pulling numbers from. Well its a statistics thread, so maybe thats why.
Anyways, there are many kinds of crude oils. Sweet light crude(most expensive), and heavy crude, much cheaper. The heavier stuff gives you more diesel.
But thats a moot point. . I think we have oil refineries right.
Why do you spend millions of dollars on a refinery?
The reason is simple, you tailor your end products depending upon what you need.
The figures people pulling of wikipedia and US energy department websites are skewed towards petrol because they produce more petrol. The reason is that due to large number of cars, petrol is more in demand.
For petrol, refining is more difficult but for diesel, sulfur removal is difficult, so cost of production comes to same.

however, diesel economies can make do with much cheaper "dirty crude".
Even if you are using heavy crude, there is not much difference in the petrol-diesel mix. Only, heavy crude has more impurities (primarily sulfur) and hence require additional processes and also special materials. (In India we lean towards heavy crude and hence all refineries will have Sulfur recovery plants invariably)

TSK's argument about petrol and diesel is too simplistic - even if you buy more diesel cars, you MAY end up with the same crude oil bill

Last edited by mallumowgli : 24th July 2011 at 09:11.
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