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Old 15th July 2011, 16:35   #1
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Default SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Guys,

Society of Automobile Manufacturers have given this presentation where they break lot of perceptions inside the PSU oil companies and Petroleum ministry.
For me at least it is a eye opener about new age diesel technology and its impact to environment.

Nice read with lot of facts. Thoughts..

Note: Attachment is a PDF version of the presentation.
Soure: SIAM India - Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers | Vehicle Manufacturers Association in India.

Mods: Move thread appropriately if this not the right area and thanks!
Attached Files
File Type: zip SIAM-Diesel-1st-Feb-2011.zip (1.56 MB, 2737 views)
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Old 15th July 2011, 16:55   #2
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Hey Reisender,

Thanks for posting this, it's quite an eye opener. Specifically the fact that personal diesel vehicles hardly affect on overall diesel consumption.
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Old 15th July 2011, 16:57   #3
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Actually the diesel technology in the automobiles in India is far ahead of the diesel available in our petrol bunks. With the introduction of BS4 norms, 12-13 major cities should retail low sulphur diesel (LSD). Read the rank of India in adopting LSD-

India is 56th in Low-Sulphur Diesel limits ranking | www.commodityonline.com | 3

However to get the entire nation converted to LSD thousands of crores of rupees needs to be invested in the petro refineries some of which are of ancient vintage. Just hope that the fuels play catch up to the vehicles available, else there would be no use of some great advancements in D tech such as Direct injection and so on in our modern power plants.
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Old 15th July 2011, 17:15   #4
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

The thing is most bhp'ians are aware of these facts.

Its the sarkari babus that need a ' fools guide' report with pictures in it so that they can force feed into their thick skulls how far diesel technology has evolved.

I would be suprised to find any govt. RTO/Auto authority employee with an iota of interest in automobiles, rather many of them being shoved in through recommendations, bribes, quotas etc..etc...
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Old 15th July 2011, 17:15   #5
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Mostly agree with this pdf.
Yes, diesel cars are the need of the hour. Fuel efficient, less pollutive, torquey

But wait there: This does not even say a word about the SO2 emissions.
India needs de-sulphurised diesel. Not only for the cars but also for the trucks and UVs. The black smoke. Is that less polluting?
The quality of diesel available is poor. You could bring in the best of Common rail engines here, but still be a polluting vehicle.
And the cars here do not use enough damping of the NVH. The clatter from the engines are disturbing.

The manufacturers are making huge profits by selling diesel cars at huge premiums compared to petrol cars just because diesel is grossly subsidized.
[Figo-D is 26% costlier than its petrol variant]

Yes, diesel should be the future, but also we need a lot of policy changes for this to work.
The SIAM report is a one sided report for me
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Old 15th July 2011, 17:33   #6
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

India is a net importer of Crude oil, which is then refined into various components.
Now lets say you make diesel cars very expensive.
People are forced to buy petrol cars.

So lets say there were 100 car drivers in the country who bought 100 swift D cars, with average FE of 20kmpl
They drive 1000kms/month which means 50L of fuel/month for each i.e. 5000L of diesel consumption/month for all 100

Now all of them cannot afford swiftD and they bought petrol swift giving 13kmpl in similar conditions
Fuel consumption/ user goes 77liters

Total consumtion is now 7700 liters

India is forced to import more fuel, and give money to foreign companies.

In current scenario, with lower taxes and some subsidy on diesel, the money spent by govt is given to Indians, within the country.

In the "Diesel cheap unfair booo hoooo hoooo waaaaaa I want justice" guys paradise, the money is going out of country.

So tell me, from an economics point of view, how does it make sense to discourage diesel cars?

Speaking of the SUVs, in countries like USA where its gasoline(petrol all the way) people drive petrol SUVs which give 7kmpl-8kmpl.
A diesel suv gives 12kmpl in similar conditions which is 50% more than petrol.

So do we want to encourage a practice, where the country is forced to import more crude oil?

Diesel cars should be encouraged, and even excise duty should be cheaper, because if more and more people, even those driving 500kms a month buy diesel cars, overall cash balance of the country will improve, as the country is going to import less crude oil.

Its always better to give money to people within the country, no matter how rich, than to give money to people outside the country, no matter how poor.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 15th July 2011 at 17:36.
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Old 15th July 2011, 17:36   #7
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Haven't read the PDF yet but just an outside comment, please kindly don't believe what these Auto manufacturers say. They were the ones that stood in the way of Electric vehicles development decades back in order to sell the 'Petrol engine". Now they want thier "Diesel engines" to prosper.
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Old 15th July 2011, 17:46   #8
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Brilliant example of study tailored to keep raking in money from diesel car sales:

Slide 4 : 25% more efficient, however, no data on average annual diesel car mileage vs petrol. So no absolute numbers on litre consumption per car comparable to petrol.

Slide 6 : This is the best one. The source for this slide is Toyota, which sells 2 volume diesel cars in india making for 0.5% of the market. Among those it has Corolla which can be compared, so a 1.8L Petrol v 1.4L Diesel. Sure toyota diesels are advanced and low emissions are a reality. But how much of today's diesel car sales can boast toyota level of refinement?

Slide 6 & 7 show us that the NOx is really low, which reflects the number of cars on road (since this includes all vehicles regardless of vintage). However, this small number contributes as much Particulate Matter as the manifold more petrol cars!

Slide 13 : This shows that of all diesel cars on sale, 36% (229/625 K) are private SUVs. They consume 33% of the fuel even though SIAM has chosen a low low mileage value of 15K. Does this need to be argued Basically they are themselves saying there is little effect of subsidy removal from diesel cars/UVs on prices, since commercial fuel use is <30%

Slide 14 is purely funny. Have you ever heard someone saying that by buying a diesel car in 4 years they saved 0.25x money! The comparision is valid for absolute Rs., which would make the slide unfavorable to SIAM's cause.

Slide 15 seems accurate, though there is no mention of growth number prior to cheap diesel cars debuting in India (2005 and before).

Slide 18 is another funny one. Where is the overall % for <10 L? I am sure knowledgeable members on team-bhp keeping track of sales can answer.

Slide 22 shows the stark difference in tax level in India compared to the rest of the world. No one else in the league of 4x tax. So not sure what this is supposed to show.

I know many might not agree with my reading of the slides. But stats have a way of being docile to show different stories in different lights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
India is a net importer of Crude oil, which is then refined into various components.
/snip/India is forced to import more fuel, and give money to foreign companies.
Interesting point tsk1979, but a common myth that crude is directly comparable to petrol/diesel. Below an extract from US Energy Information Administration: EIA Energy Kids - Oil (petroleum)

Quote:
One barrel of crude oil, when refined, produces about 19 gallons of finished motor gasoline, and 10 gallons of diesel, as well as other petroleum products.
So more crude bill for indian taxpayer with more diesel cars.

Last edited by aah78 : 15th July 2011 at 18:10. Reason: Posts merged.
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Old 15th July 2011, 19:09   #9
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
India is a net importer of Crude oil, which is then refined into various components.
Now lets say you make diesel cars very expensive.


Its always better to give money to people within the country, no matter how rich, than to give money to people outside the country, no matter how poor.

Why not go for the ultimate solution of pricing diesel at economic cost plus profit for the OMCs' and end this nonsensical debate about desirability of either petrol or diesel? Let the diesel or petrol vehicles sell on the basis of their strengths. However this is not happening. Why? Simple, It is a political hot potato!

So we subsidie diesel. Diesel subsidy directed to a fleet operator ferrying goods has an economic impact on the overall economy. It keeps inflation low, or atleast it does so on the face of it. Diesel subsidy directed towards farm consumption of diesel supposedly aids the farmers in having lower costs. I have my doubts about the actuall efficacy but I will go with conventional wisdom and accept there is a benefit to the economic system by these subsidies.

Before I proceed further allow me to add I bear no animus to those who drive diesels, matter of fact circumstances permitting I would love to buy a SUV which shall be diesel powered.

Now coming to your vociferous advocacy of diesel consumption by personal transport vehicles, which while very forceful and eloquent is sadly short on reason. Even on a superficial level there is no perceived benefit to the overall economy as the quantum of diesel that is used by personal vehicles is mere personal consumption expense and the subsidy consumed by them does not have not any rub off benefit for the overall economy. So why should your tax rupees subsidize my personal expenses or my tax rupees sibsidize your consumption? If you(not you personally) can afford it great spend all you can if not don't! It is as simple as that. Therefore either diesel subsidy goes and market prices comes in or diesel personal vehicles get taxed higher to recover a portion of the subsidy their owners will enjoy. Let us all pay for our consumption what the economic cost is. As for your economic analysis every subsidy adds to the fiscal deficit. If we keep on adding to the deficit you might end up facing higher tax rates on your incomes and on every item of your day to day use. You are too young to know what it was to live in the socialist tax regime that used to prevail in India.As a country it is smarter to foot our bills than hanker after subsidies which will eventually bring our profligate government to our doors with a begging bowl.

Furthermore if we as a country think considerations of equity/inequity are best left for talking heads and not put into practical implementation then on what grounds can we as country complain about the neta/babu combine extorting money from us from the stage of birth certificate to the death certificate?
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Old 15th July 2011, 19:23   #10
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by nipunkul View Post
Brilliant example of study tailored to keep raking in money from diesel car sales:


So more crude bill for indian taxpayer with more diesel cars.
I remember till today the first statement made by my economics teacher when he started teaching us statistics in school.

In the increasing order of falsehoods there are:

* Lies

* Damned Lies

and

* Statistical Lies

Statistics as you rightly point out can be interpreted as is convenient. The credibility of SIAM is nil. Being an industry lobbyist they have a vested interest in promoting the spin of their paymasters i.e. the automotive industry.
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Old 15th July 2011, 19:34   #11
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

@Nipunkul ,
Quote:
So more crude bill for indian taxpayer with more diesel cars.
The part you miss is that one barrel of crude produces 19 litres of gasoline AND 10 gallons of diesel. Not OR. You seem to want to state that a barrel
can produce 19 gallons of petrol OR 10 gallons of diesel , thereby indicating more crude import . Wrong. Petrol and diesel are both byproducts of crude, if you understand that key sentence correct.

The GOI cannot be so crazy as to give a subsidy for the fuel that costs more to produce, as you seem to want to indicate in your post. As it is, you presume a bias in that report. Just a call of attention to facts and in no way meant to offend you.Thanks.
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Old 15th July 2011, 20:07   #12
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

The presentation made for interesting reading but I couldn't get what SIAM's point was: it's the carmakers themselves that price diesel cars higher than petrols, right? So what are they telling the government to do exactly?

Diesel car owners know the deal when they buy the car: they pay significantly less in fuel costs that make up the bulk of operating expenses. Also that the higher their average usage is, the faster they will recover the premium they pay.

If the point of this deck is o say "Diesel car good-good, petrol car bad-bad" they have done an admirable job. Though I was when they claimed that diesel cars are quieter and on average cheaper to maintain. That goes against what the anecdotal evidence would suggest.
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Old 15th July 2011, 20:49   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmx1000
@Nipunkul ,

The part you miss is that one barrel of crude produces 19 litres of gasoline AND 10 gallons of diesel. Not OR. You seem to want to state that a barrel
can produce 19 gallons of petrol OR 10 gallons of diesel , thereby indicating more crude import . Wrong.
I understood the same as you did which means if today there are 90 petrol cars and 10 diesel, assuming mileage difference makes up for efficiency per litre, and there is 100 units of crude imported, given that 92% diesel is used for non-cars, 2 units diesel is available for 10 cars and 46 units petrol is available for 90 cars. Meaning there is more than enough petrol.

Now if there are 85 / 15 split in fuel type of cars, meaning more new cars are diesel, you need more crude, since petrol is still enough, but due to 50% increase in diesel demand, there is 3 units needed for cars, assuming non car segment does not increase consumption, we need at least 104 units of crude.

Hope the example is clear. No offence taken or meant either.
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Old 15th July 2011, 21:11   #14
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

correct me if I'm wrong here.
Fuel is imported as crude oil and the extraction process of crude is done.
at different temperatures different products are obtained.
Diesel is obtained at a lower temp(??) than petrol hence it is cheaper to extract.
But even after the extraction of Diesel is there enough juice in the crude oil to allow extraction of petrol?
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Old 15th July 2011, 21:26   #15
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Default Re: SIAM Stand on Diesel cars

The SIAM has tried to clear myths about diesel as a misunderstood and polluting fuel. Thats a good effort considering that the older, ill-maintained Tata and Ashok Leyland trucks/buses, the old Matadors or the Mahindra CJ 500D/ FC 260 D series pick-ups/minibuses and the Vikrams and Minidors which seemed to have tainted the image of diesel as a fuel.
However, diesel engines are more efficient in fuel burning as compared to petrol.The combustion process is more efficient and complete in a diesel engine as compared to a petrol engine, even with the electronic fuel injection technology in vogue.
The obnoxious diesel exhausts are due to adulterated fuel, bad engine and badly calibrated fuel pump.The fuel pumps of the older engines were were mechanical and were later in the 1980's replaced by electrical ones in some makes.
Diesel a middle distillate, is cheaper to produce in the refining process from crude oil as compared to petrol.So even if all the subsidies are gone, diesel will stay much cheaper. The prices in Western Europe can be referred to where there is no subsidy on any fuel. Among the common distillates, crude oil has light distillates (LPG, gasoline, naphtha), middle distillates (kerosene, diesel) and heavy distillates (heavy fuel oil, lubricating oils, wax, asphalt).The refining process is such that calibrations can be made to derive a much better yield of any fraction that is in greater demand and fetches a higher price during the fractional distillation process. The refinery can chemically process some preferred fractions from the distillation column, say to make more petrol or diesel as desired - this processing increases the yield of petrol or diesel as desired from each barrel/ tonne of crude oil.

Ultra low sulfur diesel is still a myth in our country. It needs huge investments by the refineries to upgrade their technology. In the US by 2006, it was mandatory to market diesel with only 15 parts per million (ppm) of sulfur.
All said and done,even with the common rail and the ultra low sulfur diesel, the pollutants emitted by a diesel engine includes suspended particulate matter (SPM), prolonged exposures to which is very harmful. Petrol engines emit no SPM. A diesel emits half the amount of carbon mono-oxide vis a vis a petrol engine.The amount of carbon dioxide emitted by a diesel is only marginally lower than a petrol.A diesel emits 25 times the amount of nitrous oxide and nitrogen dioxide (NOx) as compared to a petrol.
So finally, neither diesel nor petrol need to be advocated as fuels, if we go by the quantity or kind of pollutants released.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 15th July 2011 at 21:29.
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