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Old 21st July 2011, 10:34   #76
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

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Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post

BOTTOMLINE- Petrols are good to drive. Diesels are equally good if not better IMO.
My 11 year old car with 1,30,000+ kms on the odo is yet to see the taillights of a sub 10 lakh diesel disappearing up ahead, be it in the city or on the highway. In city, what happens is that there i am, sitting behind a diesel, in 2nd gear while he keeps shifting up in order to get some speed. Kinda frustrating, if you ask me.

Even a diesel dzire could not keep up with a 2005 model stock NHC (the one that was low on horses and high on mileage) on the highway, and diesels are supposed to be best on the highways??

So, in real life, if you want to buy a diesel for the fun to drive factor, you better be willing to shell out more than 10 lakhs.

Now don't read this as a mine-is-bigger-than-yours kind of argument. I am just trying to highlight that give diesel credit where it is due. And that is in the mileage department, which my friend SB has very eloquently put here :


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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
There is money and then there is the pleasure of driving. For the former, get yourself 1/2/3 cyl sluggish diesel cars and keep puttering around town on subsidised diesel. I am happy driving petrol cars that makes one feel alive, even if petrol costs 45% more.

Couldn't have said it better.

Also, for the driving enthusiasts, a petrol car will be any day easier to modify than a diesel. Yes you get the likes of Petes boxes for diesels, but in the money you'd spend to get a Petes, you can easily get a FFE and K&N (or equivalent) for a petrol. And the increase in FTD factor will still be more for petrol than diesel.

So, here is the new bottomline: Petrol cars wont die. They will move to a more elevated position in the world of auto enthusiasts. Something like what happened with Palio1.6, OHC Vtec, Baleno, Skoda vRS and probably will happen to Linea TJet.
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Old 21st July 2011, 12:04   #77
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
My 11 year old car with 1,30,000+ kms on the odo is yet to see the taillights of a sub 10 lakh diesel disappearing up ahead, be it in the city or on the highway. In city, what happens is that there i am, sitting behind a diesel, in 2nd gear while he keeps shifting up in order to get some speed. Kinda frustrating, if you ask me.

Even a diesel dzire could not keep up with a 2005 model stock NHC (the one that was low on horses and high on mileage) on the highway, and diesels are supposed to be best on the highways??...



So, here is the new bottomline: Petrol cars wont die. They will move to a more elevated position in the world of auto enthusiasts. Something like what happened with Palio1.6, OHC Vtec, Baleno, Skoda vRS and probably will happen to Linea TJet.

I think you should compare like with like - a Dzire (or Swift hatch) should be compared with a sub-5L petrol, not a City.

That out of the way I agree with everything else you say - Petrol cars wont die in any foreseeable future.

Also if a guy is buying a 15L+ sedan and then worrying about fuel consumption - he should have bought a cheaper car, saved some money and used that to buy petrol.

If a guy is buying a 25L+ car and the buying diesel because of fuel costs - I'm speechless
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Old 21st July 2011, 12:10   #78
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
Also if a guy is buying a 15L+ sedan and then worrying about fuel consumption - he should have bought a cheaper car, saved some money and used that to buy petrol.

If a guy is buying a 25L+ car and the buying diesel because of fuel costs - I'm speechless
People worry about fuel consumption and running costs irrespective of the segment they are going for.

They may go in for a 15L+ car because of:
1. Comfort provided by the sheer size of the car
2. Status
3. Goodies.

None of the above reasons eliminates the need to be conscious of running cost.

But i think once you cross the 15L mark, the diesels do remarkably improve in performance. So, if you get performance AND cheaper running from the same car, then why not.

Also, would the NHC vs DZire comparison still be unfair if we were to only consider their power and torque characteristics, keeping price out of the equation? Hondas are afterall overpriced, no?

Last edited by amitoj : 21st July 2011 at 12:12.
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Old 21st July 2011, 12:34   #79
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
People worry about fuel consumption and running costs irrespective of the segment they are going for.

They may go in for a 15L+ car because of:
1. Comfort provided by the sheer size of the car
2. Status
3. Goodies.

None of the above reasons eliminates the need to be conscious of running cost.

But i think once you cross the 15L mark, the diesels do remarkably improve in performance. So, if you get performance AND cheaper running from the same car, then why not.

Also, would the NHC vs DZire comparison still be unfair if we were to only consider their power and torque characteristics, keeping price out of the equation? Hondas are afterall overpriced, no?
My comment was strictly regarding FE based decisions. If a diesel variant for car is fun to drive vs. petrol then of course there is no reason at all to go for petrol.



Strictly on FE - over 100,000km, the price difference between petrol and diesel for most cars is about 2L-3L, the difference in prices of car/maintenance/resale is about the same for 10L-15L ex-showroom vehicles. Even if my assumptions are wrong, petrols may have a disadvantage, all said and done, of about 1L. This comes to between 5 to 7% of the upfront price you pay (or EMI+fuel-residual value) once registration costs are taken into account.

Now if I'm buying a 15L car, I'm going in for the reasons you mentioned in the first place (comfort ...), obviously I'm not buying a 7L sedan that has those things in much smaller measure - so basically I'm willing to spend 100% more for these things.

If I'm at that point thinking about saving 5% - this is irrational IMHO.

If I'm buying a 25L car and then thinking the same - well ....



PS: if a diesel is more FTD than a petrol, it makes sense to go for it.
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Old 21st July 2011, 12:37   #80
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post

Now don't read this as a mine-is-bigger-than-yours kind of argument. I am just trying to highlight that give diesel credit where it is due.
Optra Magnum diesel outruns Optra Mangum petrol.
Vento Diesel outruns Vento pterol.
Verna Diesel much more fun than Verna petrol.
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Old 21st July 2011, 13:20   #81
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

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Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
Optra Magnum diesel outruns Optra Mangum petrol.
Vento Diesel outruns Vento pterol.
Verna Diesel much more fun than Verna petrol.

you forgot Cruze - the diesel rocket.

Or the Skoda cars

Last edited by vina : 21st July 2011 at 13:23.
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Old 21st July 2011, 13:52   #82
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

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Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
Well, most of the swift owners own its diesel variant.So I'm surprised why there was only a 20% gap .
In a civil forum like Team-BHP you cant expect every owner will rave about the performance of only the cars they own.
+ People who don't own any but have driven both are also entitled to their opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
And IMHO a petrolhead's point of view is very different from the average Indian car buyer's point of view.Most of them don't even understand the torque factor.Even the so called local experts just look at the HP only.I have no doubt in my mind when I say that atleast 80% of the diesel car owners bought them because of the fuel efficiency and price of diesel.
May be 80% am janata buy diesel for FE. Without knowing much about torque. But there is a group of dieselheads who stick to diesels like Vegeterians stick to veg. You get addicted to the torque man.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
My 11 year old car with 1,30,000+ kms on the odo is yet to see the taillights of a sub 10 lakh diesel disappearing up ahead, be it in the city or on the highway. In city, what happens is that there i am, sitting behind a diesel, in 2nd gear while he keeps shifting up in order to get some speed. Kinda frustrating, if you ask me.
May be you did not encounter a Verna diesel or Optra Magnum in the 11 years. Or the ones you did has sedate drivers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
So, in real life, if you want to buy a diesel for the fun to drive factor, you better be willing to shell out more than 10 lakhs.
Thats not true.
All these cars are below 10L
Quote:
Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
Optra Magnum diesel outruns Optra Mangum petrol.
Vento Diesel outruns Vento pterol.
Verna Diesel much more fun than Verna petrol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
Also, for the driving enthusiasts, a petrol car will be any day easier to modify than a diesel. Yes you get the likes of Petes boxes for diesels, but in the money you'd spend to get a Petes, you can easily get a FFE and K&N (or equivalent) for a petrol. And the increase in FTD factor will still be more for petrol than diesel.
Increase in performance in SI engines in minimal with FFE and K&N. Even with change in Intake manifold, and cams the performance increase nowhere comparable to the one that Powerbox offers.
How many people have actually modified their petrol? But look at the no. of cars running with Pete's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
If a diesel variant for car is fun to drive vs. petrol then of course there is no reason at all to go for petrol.
Absolutely.

Last edited by GTO : 22nd July 2011 at 22:33. Reason: Only 2 smilies per post allowed, thanks
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Old 21st July 2011, 14:01   #83
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
Optra Magnum diesel outruns Optra Mangum petrol.
Vento Diesel outruns Vento pterol.
Verna Diesel much more fun than Verna petrol.
I am mainly talking about sub 10L diesels and its only the entry level variants of Vento and Verna that just barely manage to stay under 10, OTR.

As for Hyundai, well, no one makes A2B cars like Hyundai. A performance enthusiast will probably not make Hyundai their first choice, unless its an Elantra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
you forgot Cruze - the diesel rocket.

Or the Skoda cars
See above

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
May be you did not encounter a Verna diesel or Optra Magnum in the 11 years. Or the ones you did has sedate drivers.
lol. Maybe they knew the strength of their car is in kmpl and m/s squared.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
Thats not true.
All these cars are below 10L
Barely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
Increase in performance in SI engines in minimal with FFE and K&N. Even with change in Intake manifold, and cams the performance increase nowhere comparable to the one that Powerbox offers.
I think you have only seen some bad modification jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
How many people have actually modified their petrol? But look at the no. of cars running with Pete's.
I cant remember when i last owned a non modded petrol car.

And i can tell you that all of them running on Petes will take their boxes off and not mention a word about them when the time comes for them to sell their cars. That should tell you something about these boxes.

Last edited by amitoj : 21st July 2011 at 14:17. Reason: Added response to oxyzen
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Old 21st July 2011, 15:03   #84
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

While no one is denying that there are indeed some diesels that are FTD and most of which start near the 10L range, this should not be confused with why people in India buy diesels. It does not need any research to know that 99.99% buy diesels because the refuelling cost is cheaper by close to 45% compared to petrol. And this stretches across the spectrum from cheap cars to the luxury brands. How many petrol Benz/BMW have you seen on the road ?

If diesel were to cost same as petrol, do you really think people would pay the extra 75-100K for a Swift/i20/Figo to get the fun-to-drive diesel experience ?

BTW I had TD-ed a range of cars (petrol and diesel) couple months ago for a friend and the Vento-D was among them. And I liked the way it drove. The Polo-D was exactly opposite - useless.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 21st July 2011 at 15:05.
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Old 21st July 2011, 15:07   #85
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

I repeat what I said in my last post.The extra 1L that you spend on a diesel should be enough to make the petrol variant of the same car even more fun to drive.Give Maruti that extra 90K and you will definitely see a new petrol swift that's several times more fun to drive than the swift diesel.So the only thing that I see in favour of the diesels is the FE.

And I expect some seniors to step in and state the equal importance of torque and hp. Torque or hp alone cant win a race .If you use all the torque at a lower rpm,you will need serious amounts of HP to keep things going.A lot of torque at a lower rpm will only be useful for short bursts.

For instance,my BIL's Swift diesel accelerates faster initially than my Etios(his claim) but on straight roads I always hit higher speeds and overtake him with ease.The extra 15 horses and the lower kerbweight might be the reasons.Swift has a lot more torque than the Etios but on highways the Etios rules!

Last edited by fast&furious : 21st July 2011 at 15:11.
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Old 21st July 2011, 19:30   #86
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
I think you have only seen some bad modification jobs.
I cant remember when i last owned a non modded petrol car.
Dont tell me that with 30K you can bump up your power and torque figures by 30% in a petrol. And even if you could it would be a lot of hassle & warranty getting void.

BTW have you dynoed your cars to guage actual improvement?
Or may be the flat out or roll on times?


Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
And i can tell you that all of them running on Petes will take their boxes off and not mention a word about them when the time comes for them to sell their cars. That should tell you something about these boxes.
I agree, Petes box do take a toll on the engines, provided they are abused continuously. Decent driving with sporadic pedal to metal acceleration would not have any serious issues.
And is it not an advantage to remove the box and not mention a word about it when it comes to selling. It may sound selfish, but thats the way everyone is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
If diesel were to cost same as petrol, do you really think people would pay the extra 75-100K for a Swift/i20/Figo to get the fun-to-drive diesel experience ?
Swift- may be the petrol, as both the engines are at par. But no way I am going to settle for Figo/I20 Petrol. They have donkey-powers. The diesel engines are worth the extra cash just for performance, running costs left aside.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
And I expect some seniors to step in and state the equal importance of torque and hp. Torque or hp alone cant win a race .If you use all the torque at a lower rpm,you will need serious amounts of HP to keep things going.A lot of torque at a lower rpm will only be useful for short bursts.
No one is buying diesel for Racing. In fact racing is not supposed to be done on roads. Sure with regards to racing, it is HP that matters. The F1 cars rev to insane RPMs and so the diesels are not welcome there.

But lets talk about practicallity. Can you keep the engine on the boil (5000-6500RPM) for 1 complete hour? I guess not. This is where diesels come it. Diesels are easier to drive fast. You just need to be out of the lag zone. Instant torque. Anyway enough has been said. Not going to fight this argument further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast&furious View Post
For instance,my BIL's Swift diesel accelerates faster initially than my Etios(his claim) but on straight roads I always hit higher speeds and overtake him with ease.The extra 15 horses and the lower kerbweight might be the reasons.Swift has a lot more torque than the Etios but on highways the Etios rules!
Etios has one of the best engines in the entry level petrol sedans. It is supposed to give swift a run for its money. But if you are keen on comparing, compare it with the same spec.ed engine. The Verna 1.5 CRDI is a whole lot faster.
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Old 21st July 2011, 19:53   #87
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

Not another diesel s. petrol fight guys (I'm guilty too) - we've got plenty of threads for that.

Let's discuss whether or not petrol cars will have a significant market going forward and why. Even a diesel vs. petrol discussion should be done within this constraint.

That said:
  1. I don't think even die hard fans can deny that most people are buying diesels due to FE.
  2. A good number of people love petrols better than diesels, and there is no chance of changing their opinions in some time to come.
  3. Given 1 and 2 above, whether diesels are fun to drive or not is irrelevant to this thread.
  4. The question now is whether a significant market for petrol will exist going forward.
      • If yes then petrols are here to stay
      • If no, then except for serious enthusiasts (and that means really good price of the car) no company can afford to spend the R&D $$$ in petrols.
My opinion: petrols (as well as diesels) are here to stay for a long time.
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Old 21st July 2011, 20:09   #88
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

With the top selling cars, the Alto, the i10 and Wagon R being purely petrol cars, I'm guessing the total Indian Market Petrol: Diesel to be 50:50 or even biased towards the Petrols! But climbing up towards more expensive cars, Petrol takes the back seat though.
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Old 21st July 2011, 20:13   #89
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
No one is buying diesel for Racing. In fact racing is not supposed to be done on roads. Sure with regards to racing, it is HP that matters. The F1 cars rev to insane RPMs and so the diesels are not welcome there.
I wrote that as a reply to this statement made by you :
Quote:
As quoted by enzo ferrari "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" , the statement is incredidably true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
But lets talk about practicallity. Can you keep the engine on the boil (5000-6500RPM) for 1 complete hour? I guess not. This is where diesels come it. Diesels are easier to drive fast. You just need to be out of the lag zone. Instant torque. Anyway enough has been said. Not going to fight this argument further.
Easier to drive fast! What's that?You press a button and the car just takes off? Instant torque is good but only those good costly cars manage to keep that acceleration.Many of the other cars like swift struggles to do well as we go way past that peak torque rpm which is 2000(for the swift).I can tell you I go way past that 2000 on highways .This argument can go on for days and weeks but I'm not interested in it either.Like many other people here I like the consistent and stable power delivery of a petrol car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxyzen View Post
Etios has one of the best engines in the entry level petrol sedans. It is supposed to give swift a run for its money. But if you are keen on comparing, compare it with the same spec.ed engine. The Verna 1.5 CRDI is a whole lot faster.
You cant compare engines by their size.We did that in the old days.Honda City also has a 1.5L engine.Compare the cost.Verna's engine is better because it's designed and tuned in a better way.And probably it costs more.Give Toyota that extra money and we might see an Etios with something like ummm a 120 PS engine like the City.

So my last words on this:this is not the beginning of end of either petrol or diesel cars.Both have strong supporters and both will exist here for a long long time.
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Old 21st July 2011, 20:20   #90
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Default Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?

Simple one Liner

"Petrol and Diesel both are here to stay"

Petrol Sales are going to be reducing month on month going forward.
Diesel sales are going to be increasing month on month.

This equation will change after government increases road taxes on diesel cars from next year(99% sure it will come out in the next finance budget 2012)

So people, if you need a diesel car for whatever be the reason, FE or better performance or better torque, next 6 months is the time to buy one, else it is a risk as road tax could be increased from 5 to 9% more for private diesel cars, noways govt can increase diesel prices anymore inflation will take a big hit.
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