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Old 25th August 2009, 05:08   #121
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Of course, the SUVs weakness is in its handling and road stability where it has a higher chance of tipping over, and way poorer grip, braking and steering ability.
bhogalrajnish,

Let us remember that in addition to good independent crash test results (Euroncap and IIHS), it is also important to have a steel luggage compartment partition and a rollover sensor.

The purpose of the partition, available as an OEM accessory for higher quality SUV's, is to keep the cargo from flying forwards and hitting the passengers' heads during an accident or emergency braking.

Does the SUV have a rollover sensor? Why? You would be amazed how easily cars and SUV's roll when they lose control and hit a low object at an angle even when they have not hit any other vehicle. If there is no side-impact, the curtain airbags will not fire unless a rollover sensor is present.
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Old 25th August 2009, 10:09   #122
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
- Why? More the merrier!! Actually the recent posts are still true to the thread title I see in the right corner. SUVs safer than sedans is all it says - who to is left open - so it could be to other cars? Pedestrians? Environment?
Well, I think he's answered on my behalf -
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Actually we really need to create a seperate thread and bring those environment related posts into that. Now which mod is jobless enough to sift through this mess?
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Flip the sentence, remove the question mark, and no one would argue: "Sedans safer than SUVs." This is a statement that bears no argument.
Depends Doc, I'll say its highly debatable.........very highly debatable. It depends on time, place, circumstances & the vehicle that you are driving. As simple as that.

Now, if you ask me, what do I feel safer in on my daily commutes, its really a no-brainer. Given the lawless driving, reckless overspeeding, rampant indiscipline & completely outrageous sense of basics that prevails on our NCR roads, do I really need to say which I think is safer?

And all that talk about SUV drivers "bullying poor sedans" really doesn't cut much ice with me - please don't get me started.

Last edited by suman : 25th August 2009 at 10:12.
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Old 25th August 2009, 11:45   #123
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Correct, but how many BMWs/CEOs do you see on the road. They are still a rarity.
Huh? That's rididulous. I thought we are talking about guzzlers "per se"! Firstly, by themselves, they are even more of gas guzzlers than our 10 lakh SUVs. It just shows the irony of the situation when people will not hesitate to call "10 kpl SUVs" guzzlers, yet the same people will never speak of a 4 kpl S500 in an equally derogatory manner.

Second, do you think that India is the only country that contributes to global warming? LOL! There are atleast 40 million V6 - V8 5 kpl cars on the roads worldwide today. But hey, as I posted earlier, the "gas guzzler" term is only for SUVs right? Even if they give a reasonable 10 kpl in the city and 12 on the highway! And no, this trend isn't exclusive to India. It's prevalent in teh States too. Americans will scoff at a Hummer H3, but drool over a Mercedes S550 or a Mustang V8 (which are as much of a guzzler as the Hummer). Blind bashing is an appropriate term here.

Another example of blind bashing SUVS : Why is it that only SUVs are targetted? Why not MUVs? In the last 5 pages of discussion, I have not seen anyone bring up an MUV. Are all MUVs laden with 9 passengers all of the time? It is a fact that MUVs outsell SUVs in our country, and we see more MUVS in urban India than SUVs. Why this herd mentality of targeting SUVs alone? Because they look cooler? Or is it because they are macho? Or is it due to their intimidating design?

Or are you of the opinion that every Innova out there always has 7 passengers & is used only on the highway? I have yet to see criticism toward an MUV. Worth thinking about. Worth a point.

I see more sedans carrying one person, than I do even two. Thus, when a 5 seater can carry 1 passenger and get away with it, why do we point a finger at an SUV carrying 2? Ah, the imbalance within our society.

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But these "affordable SUVs" and I use the term again, to its true meaning when compared to cars of the same price range and fuel type consume at least 30% more fuel and of course, emit the same amount of pollutants as well.
Take a look at this statement again:

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Ah, affordable SUVs. The Mahindra Scorpio gives 9.9 in the city and 13 on the highway, the Sumo Grande 9.7 and a similar 13ish on the highway, the Bolero DI 12.1 and 14.5, while the Tata Safari 9.4 & 12.7.

What part of these affordable SUVs FE looks like a guzzler to you?
Of course. But that doesn't take away from the fact that 9.5 - 10.0 kpl is still a very respectable FE figure for congested cities. Give these affordable SUVs an open road and they'll deliver between 11 - 12 kpl. Hardly a number that we can call a guzzler.

Think of it OBJECTIVELY. Are the affordable SUVs that we are talking about guzzlers? No ways.

Would a diesel sedan be more FE than an SUV? Of course. But then, why stop at sedans? Basically what you are saying is, why do the job with bigger when it can be done with smaller? Considering that 90% of the sedans out there are carrying only 1 - 2 passengers 90% of the time, all of us can buy Tata Nanos. Or wait, even Hero Honda CD100s & mopeds.

Just because there is a more fuel efficient alternative to the same task doesn't make a vehicle that is respectably fuel efficient to start with (e.g. a 10 kpl SUV) a guzzler.

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Correct, very true. Which is why I use public transport on a daily basis to office, try to use my Bullet only for weekend/highway drives and hardly use my Cielo.
Still doesn't take away from the fact that, how much ever you use your Bullet, a Hero Honda CD100 would be more fuel efficient and serve exactly the same function. The difference between a Hero Honda and your Bullet is less than the difference between a fuel efficient sedan and an "affordable" SUV. Go figure. Very convenient to ride a vehicle half as fuel efficient as other alternatives that can do the same job, but blindly call 10 kpl SUVs as gas guzzlers!

Remember, we aren't talking about heavy usage patterns versus light. We are discussing FE & carbon footprints (independent of usage quantity).

On a related note, didn't you just recommend a 6 - 7 kpl Skoda RS to someone in another thread? For someone who is so concerned about FE & carbon emissions, I can surely see how that car is green.

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They are a menace if not driven responsibly.
Any car is a menace if driven irresponsibly. A 100 BHP Verna being driven rashly, in the wrong hands, is as much of a menace as any other car on the road.

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So going by your line of thought lets ignore the fuel efficient saloons, which are safer, faster and comfortable and buy only SUVs.
It's pretty obvious that you've missed my line of thought so please go back and read my post again, in entirety. I have absolutely no problem with someone driving an 800 to Ladakh, or using an affordable "respectable FE" SUV in the city. I insist, to each his own, AS LONG as it is within the legal framework. And to those that call SUV's gas guzzlers, I've just given you examples of well-priced 10 kpl SUVs. No one in their right frame of mind is going to call a 10 kpl SUV a guzzler.

Actually, today, you can have your cake and eat it too. Get the Scorpio hybrid. While your Cielo - which doesn't even meet todays emission norms - is spitting out emissions from its tail pipe in traffic, the scorpio start-stop feature will shut the engine off = zero emissions! So which is more environment friendly here? A Scorpio microhybrid which will give 11 kpl in the city, zero emissions when standing still in traffic or a Cielo running on outdated emission standards & gives out 7 kpl in the city?

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RE: Which is exactly the point here. We, as a forum need to arrive at justifiable opinions because we are viewed, analyzed and to a certain extent, emulated by many. Lets us understand that we have a social and environmental responsibility and not shirk from it on the basis of "to each his own"theory.
Absolutely. That's why we have articles on fuel efficiency, safe driving and do NOT permit a single thread or post on street racing. That said, we do not believe in biased information or unfounded statements, which is precisely the reasoning behind this debate. I find it ironical how someone can call a 10 kpl SUV a guzzler, and in the same breadth accept a 5 kpl Accord V6 or a 4 kpl S500. This is hilarity at its absolute best and we do what we can to bust myths.

If we have to spread awareness, we ought to do so factually. Precisely why I make the point that most "affordable" Indian SUVS are pretty fuel-efficient. They are NOT guzzlers. Heck, even the Honda Civic consumes more fuel than these SUVs.

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Good that you will not buy an SUV for urban use because that was my entire point.
Again, I would appreciate your reading my posts in their entirety before making unfounded conclusions. I have stated that I have a Jeep that I use for offroading. Nowhere have I stated that I won't buy an SUV for urban use. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. What I do believe in is "To each his own".....again, as long as it is within legal parameters. I believe in letting the free market decide whether someone drives an 800 or an S Class or a Landcruiser. And WRT emission norms, governments are making them stricter all the time. Bharat stage IV norms are excellent, no vehicle which is unnecessarily polluting can cell in India.

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How many road trips do we make with more than 5 people with us continuously? And any modern sedan with a decent boot has enough space for the luggage for such a trip.
I don't know how you define comfort, but my Honda City doesn't have the space to carry 5 adults & their luggage in comfort. Neither does my C220 sedan. For the record, we are 6 in the immediate family. And for those times when a 12 - 13 kpl highway SUV is carrying 6 passengers, well, it works out more enviro-friendly than two 15 kpl sedans carrying 3 each, WOT?

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For marriage parties, you always have legions of Innova cab services available everywhere.
Similarly, we can all ride around on mopeds and rent out a sedan when we need to travel outstation. After all, 90% of the sedans out there are not using their boot 90% of the time!

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Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
As far as the Skoda subject is concerned it is certainly debatable as quite a few of us at the forum have had issues, yet the Laura continues to sell like hot cakes.
Please get your facts in order. The Laura is NOT selling like hot cakes. It has lost out on sales & market share over the past 12 months. Refer to the sales analysis threads for more information.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Depends on what SUV is being compared to what Sedan. Is a scorpio safer than say a corolla or civic? Absolutely no!

However is a CRV/Outlander/Captiva safer than a Civic/Corolla? Probably yes.
Absolutely. All things being equal - in terms of modernity, safety rating & safety equipment - an SUV is the safer in a crash with a sedan. Think M Class versus C Class. Or Landcruiser versus Corolla!
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Old 25th August 2009, 11:50   #124
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GTO this thread seems to have gone to your heart.

Yep your points are all valid, and the final statement of M-Class vs C Class and Lancruser vs corolla just about sums it up. Possibly it could be Fortuner vs Corolla.
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Old 25th August 2009, 11:54   #125
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OT but could not resist: That has to be the longest post i have ever seen from GTO!!

And regarding:
Quote:
SUVs' may be safe for the occupants, do they offer same safety and convenience to other road users who have the same level of freedom?
When did we become communists??
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Old 25th August 2009, 12:09   #126
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Wow this thread has become a wild one guys!

Ok let me add some fuel to the fire then - may as well join the party!

1. Think about a bunch of 4x4's in a deeply chaotic mud plugging session - here you have a certain amount of damage to the environment - most definitely.
2. Now cast your mind to an F1 race track - here there is definitely a large amount of damage to the environment via wicked emissions.
3. Any rally or road race is likely to cause wicked emissions and other kinds of damage to natural habitat and environment.
4.Then think about the normal city traffic scenario - at every single "start-stop" and every single "signal" we have put-putting autos, fiddly motorbikes, crabbitty mopeds, miserable MUV's, horrendously stickered BPO wagons, flashy rich man's SUV's, sleek, shining sedans, large and intimidating lorries, big bad buses and so on - all merrily emitting large scads of poisonous gases. (Very few of these actually turn off the engines when sitting immobile at a traffic light)

Therefore, it would be ok to infer that any and all vehicles are potential environment destroyers.

In ref Safety - the point made by several on this thread is being reiterated again:

Any and every vehicle is as safe or as unsafe as its guiding hands - the driver of the said vehicle. There are no monopolies on safety or "un-safe-ness".
Nuff-Said!
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Old 25th August 2009, 12:14   #127
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When did we become communists??
we have been a socialist country since '76
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Old 25th August 2009, 12:29   #128
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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post

When did we become communists??

Concern for others is neither communism nor socialism but, humanism.


I think we need another thread for environmental, social & psychological impacts of SUVs' & sedans.

Last edited by KITE RUNNER : 25th August 2009 at 12:30.
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Old 25th August 2009, 12:36   #129
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
we have been a socialist country since '76
hehe. As if we are not OT enough, lets discuss this as well

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Originally Posted by KITE RUNNER View Post
Concern for others is neither communism nor socialism but, humanism.


I think we need another thread for environmental, social & psychological impacts of SUVs' & sedans.
Driving a sedan is more humanitarian than driving an SUV??


Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Therefore, it would be ok to infer that any and all vehicles are potential environment destroyers.

In ref Safety - the point made by several on this thread is being reiterated again:

Any and every vehicle is as safe or as unsafe as its guiding hands - the driver of the said vehicle. There are no monopolies on safety or "un-safe-ness".
Nuff-Said!
Environmental hazards posed by a vehicle deserve another thread. The intention of this thread was not to compare the damages done to the environment by an SUV and a sedan.

Last edited by amitoj : 25th August 2009 at 12:38.
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Old 25th August 2009, 13:44   #130
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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
GTO this thread seems to have gone to your heart.
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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
OT but could not resist: That has to be the longest post i have ever seen from GTO!!
What gets my goat is people blindly calling all SUVs as guzzlers. I mean, sure, I'll give it to you that a 3.5 kpl Ford Expedition is a guzzler. But the same guy who tells someone to drive 13 kpl sedan instead of a 10 kpl SUV, can be told to drive a 16 kpl hatch instead of a 13 kpl sedan!

From what angle are vehicles like the Sumo, Scorpio, Safari etc. guzzlers? Anyone will agree that their FE is pretty respectable. Heck, the Indian market is the best judge of that. If they were guzzlers - by mass opinion - they would NOT sell in the first place!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Think about a bunch of 4x4's in a deeply chaotic mud plugging session - here you have a certain amount of damage to the environment - most definitely.
2. Now cast your mind to an F1 race track - here there is definitely a large amount of damage to the environment via wicked emissions.
3. Any rally or road race is likely to cause wicked emissions and other kinds of damage to natural habitat and environment.
Yeah, maybe we should all stop going out for joy drives, driving holidays, offroading, high-revving etc. etc. What's next? We stop using air-conditioners & washing machines?

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
Driving a sedan is more humanitarian than driving an SUV??
Could be for those who term a 10 kpl SUV as a guzzler, and conveniently turn a blind eye to that *smaller* BMW 325i which is capable of only 5 kpl.
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Old 25th August 2009, 14:10   #131
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Could be for those who term a 10 kpl SUV as a guzzler, and conveniently turn a blind eye to that *smaller* BMW 325i which is capable of only 5 kpl.
Why go that far. Closer home, the i10 AT is known to give less than 10kpl.
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Old 25th August 2009, 15:44   #132
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@GTO - I look forward to reading Devdaths comebacks, because I know there are valid ones to most of your points.
I will talk to one and clarify another.
But first, the point being made by me, and I think by him, is - ought we to consume more than what we need, when the consumption impinges on our fellow citizens welfare? Living in society, even more so in one such as India is today, I find it hard to accept that one can, just because the law allows it, and I have the money to do it. I do not expect others to live by this standard, but I do have the right to propagate it, because I believe one has to set the standard for the law to maybe incorporate one day, I don't really care either way if it does or not. I would rather be ahead of legislation, than follow in its trail, giving up only those things I legally cannot do. But that's me, and I accept fully that you have the right to propagate your convictions just as strongly if you think differently. Now, whether I have the right to propagate mine on a forum such as this - a valid question, I admit, and the mods always have the legitimate prerogative to delete any post if it is an inappropriate post by their lights.
And do I live by that standard in all I do - of course not, and it is an ongoing struggle, but one to keep struggling over and aspire to. I for one am definitely not holding my behaviour as a shining example! But I do think that as educated leaders in the country, we have to show the path that our elected leaders are failing to. If we do not, and we want that bunch to legislate all the right things that need to be done, we are headed for big trouble.
With that said for context, my two points -
1. If the Accords/BMWs or whatever other fuel guzzling/large footprint cars were to become available at price points that allowed them to also proliferate, I would object to them as well. Why would anyone have a purely anti SUV bias?
2. I was the one that exempted the UVs/MUVs from the category being discussed to keep the language simple. On the assumption that these are bought for their people carrying capability, and if so, would be used as such for the bulk of the time.
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Old 25th August 2009, 16:02   #133
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we have been a socialist country since '76
Only Kerala and Bengal!

And see their state in terms of industrial progress. Atleast Kerala has tourism to bank upon. No such luck with Bengal and the states gone to dogs with absolutely no work culture

P.s: I'm a bong!

@ Sawyer: Going by your logic, there should be a restriction on consumptionas well. Implement the number of cars one family can purchase to one and see the auto industry grinding to a halt.

Last edited by MileCruncher : 25th August 2009 at 16:17.
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Old 25th August 2009, 16:09   #134
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Only Kerala and Bengal!

And see their state in terms of industrial progress. Atleast Kerala has tourism to bank upon. No such luck and the states gone to dogs with absolutely no work culture

P.s: I'm a bong!
Is industrial progress the only kind that matters? My personal issue with Kerala is the humidity that I can't take, but is it not Gods own country in many ways? I know that it has its issues, but people who live there would be best able to comment on the median contentment levels of the population, as compared to that in the rest of the country. As well as growth in the quality of life ( as opposed to standard of living ) there compared to the rest of the country since independence.
I will not comment on W Bengal, but has Kerala gone to dogs? I am not sure it has.
Now we are wildly OT!
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Old 25th August 2009, 16:10   #135
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But first, the point being made by me, and I think by him, is - ought we to consume more than what we need, when the consumption impinges on our fellow citizens welfare?
One man's need is another man's luxury. And one can not be imposed upon other. If you have reduced your needs, good for you but to ask/expect others to do the same is not fair. In short, i dont think you can decide on behalf of others what their needs are. And hence, you can not sit in judgement over their actions either.
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