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Old 7th September 2011, 14:57   #16
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

Point is I understand they dont have expertise on the topic etc. But when Tata started they too started from the scratch (well almost).

Its they had not thought of it all this while because they did not assume Diesel achieving such a huge status some 5-10 years ago.
But now they have the case in the point.

I mean expertise can always be encouraged and brought up from within, if they start putting a good effort now, they might have a perfected engine 2 years down the lane.

Except if suzuki is scared to do any such testing and wants to play safe by getting someone else engine all the while, then this strategy is Ok. But its high time they start giving it a consideration.
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Old 7th September 2011, 15:05   #17
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

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Originally Posted by xingamazon View Post
Point is I understand they dont have expertise on the topic etc. But when Tata started they too started from the scratch (well almost).

Its they had not thought of it all this while because they did not assume Diesel achieving such a huge status some 5-10 years ago.
But now they have the case in the point.

I mean expertise can always be encouraged and brought up from within, if they start putting a good effort now, they might have a perfected engine 2 years down the lane.

Except if suzuki is scared to do any such testing and wants to play safe by getting someone else engine all the while, then this strategy is Ok. But its high time they start giving it a consideration.
Agree, but then problem is most companies are drive by cost to benefit ratio. They might consider sourcing Fiat engines to be cheaper over investing in a new Diesel engine, over a period of time.

But they do start off with a new engine, it will be great for all.
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Old 7th September 2011, 15:09   #18
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

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Originally Posted by vinya_jag View Post
AFAIK:
There are not many diesel manufacturers across the world.
Its Bosch doing bulk of the engineering and the rest reaping benefits.
The CRDI is an old technology now, The ceramic injectors are all done by Bosch.
All these manufacturers be it Tata/ Hyundai/ Fiat have a tweak to the Bosch products, they assemble it their own way and produce diesels motors.

And if Suzuki decides to develop a diesel now, it still will be sourcing a lot of IPRs and components from Bosch, which will still be a costly thing. So, why not but an engine itself than going for an engine labeled Suzuki?
It was Fiat who pioneered the modern day CRDI technology which was later sold to Bosch since Fiat was in a poor financial state. Please refer to the article in Wikipedia for more details. Common rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 7th September 2011, 15:27   #19
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

What exactly is the point of the question: "Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines?"

Suzuki makes (manufactures) its own diesel engine. The technology has been licensed from FIAT. It will be not wrong if we say that the world runs on FIAT's small diesel mill when it comes to engines of ~1.3L capacity. This is because everyone including FIAT, GM, Suzuki and PSA use the uniJet Turbo Diesel (MultiJet) engine originally developed by FIAT.

Now if you ask why does Suzuki not develop its own diesel mill from scratch, then its an altogether different issue. Apparently, there is no need for reinventing the wheel, as FIAT's technology still remains contemporary. Future diesel mills, maybe under 1L, is something that needs to be looked into. But again, that is the automotive industry's prerogative in general, so in a way, why should Suzuki be bothered at all, as long as it is able to meet the demand for diesel with the current engine that it makes with the know-how from FIAT.
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Old 7th September 2011, 16:23   #20
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

Well Xingamazon
My take on this may be that due to the enormous success of the Fiat engine Suzuki may have fear that their indigenous engine may not meet the same fan following. Truly the Swift DDIS stands out in the engine bedding the internal dynamics and piston positioning which is making it technically difficult to beat and displace from #1 slot.
On the other hand, would be really interesting to see Maruti trying to build Engines in-house in India . Historically India has never been a dominant or notable player in Racing and this may be a cause for the question you have raised.
Am all eager to see Indian Diesel horses giving global challenges.

Cheers
Prasad
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Old 7th September 2011, 16:42   #21
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

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Originally Posted by Gooney View Post
What exactly is the point of the question: "Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines?"
You knew the answer but still asked the question. You assumed that when I said make I meant manufacture.
If I wanted to say manufacture, I would have used the word manufacture or produce.
I am trying to make a point with my limited knowledge of English, pardon me for that.
BTW, thanks for correcting it.

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Originally Posted by Gooney View Post
Now if you ask why does Suzuki not develop its own diesel mill from scratch, then its an altogether different issue. Apparently, there is no need for reinventing the wheel, as FIAT's technology still remains contemporary. Future diesel mills, maybe under 1L, is something that needs to be looked into..
Now thats a question we ought to be thinking again and again.
You just dont stick to one engine just because its good. Bosch ownes the underlying technology, based on which Fiat has modeled its engines I agree. But what other manufacturers like Tata, Mahindra, Ford etc have done is they have built more R&D based on this underlying technology. Thus they have a freehand now. Which gives them freedom to work on any variants of engine at any point of time that they want.

But what Suzuki has been doing allthiswhile is it has obtain a blue-print made from Fiat, and reproduce engine with same spec.
Now there is no R&D involved in that part.
Thats where my question originates from, why cant Suzuki use the underlying technology do some R&D and design its own engine based on the underlying technology used by Bosch.

Last edited by xingamazon : 7th September 2011 at 16:44.
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Old 7th September 2011, 17:37   #22
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

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Originally Posted by xingamazon View Post


Now thats a question we ought to be thinking again and again.
You just dont stick to one engine just because its good. Bosch ownes the underlying technology, based on which Fiat has modeled its engines I agree. But what other manufacturers like Tata, Mahindra, Ford etc have done is they have built more R&D based on this underlying technology. Thus they have a freehand now. Which gives them freedom to work on any variants of engine at any point of time that they want
Dude I did not mean to offend you. The whole point I am trying to make is that certain technologies in the automotive industry are shared, and that too to an enormous scale, especially when it happens to be a good one. And in our case FIAT's small diesel engine. Also, many technologies are co-developed. This saves time and money. So, essentially, if you dig deep into the small diesel engine's development history, you will find that, like mentioned earlier, one tier-1 supplier or OEM had a hand in 'inventing' the technology, which is then shared across the industry and jointly perfected. Again, FIAT's small diesel engine is an example.

Also, Tata passenger vehicles use FIAT technology. Yes, they have in-house diesel engine, but they still use FIAT's. As for Ford's DuraTorq (1.4L), it was actually a technology borrowed from Peugeot. As you move to bigger engines, you will find Isuzu involved at some stage of development. Go bigger still, you will keep bumping into Cummins or CAT. The beauty of this industry is that each player has an USP and since they are so good at it, others do not hesitate to 'copy' those technologies. Instead of everyone doing everything, auto players focus on certain technologies. Makes sense, no?
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Old 7th September 2011, 17:42   #23
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

The reason that Suzuki has not designed a Diesel Engine, is due to limited demand for a diesel in Suzuki product line up in the past. It is only now that Suzuki has found a huge demand for Diesel product, mainly in India. So if it finds it viable in the long run, it has all the incentive to design and build one. But please note that having even 2 to 3 sizes in its repertory requires quite large numbers to justify the whole process. That is why even in petrol it has standardized on just three K series engines - 1L, 1.2L and 1.3/1.4 in future.

Designing petrol automobile engine is a long drawn and tedious process. Designing a diesel engine is even more so. Producing a diesel engine under a license is itself a big task, as materials used are more rugged than those of petrol engines. Add to that the modern trend towards lighter engines, which makes quality and metallurgy of parts very critical.

The steps involved in a successful design, validation and manufacture of a diesel engine are
. Produce a basic design, using state of art CAD and validate it.
. Determine which components/technologies require patent payments.
. Perform a rigorous manufacturing cost analysis
if at this stage it is outside the target budget, go back and redesign it

. Create a series of prototypes
. Test them under various conditions
. Check costing
. Prepare a long term plan for production, based on current & projected demand
. Evaluate the OEM supply position, and verify that all components will be available when required. This is a critical requirement, as a lot of engine parts, especially high strength forged parts manufacturers, may not have the capacity to meet the demand, and may require to expand facilities.
. Set up assembly & testing facility for both incoming OEM components as well as the finished engine. This is not a trivial exercise and requires a good bit of investment in land, plan & machinery and labour.

I am assuming that the ECU, Pistons, Rings, Forged components (Crank shaft, connecting rods, Cam Shafts etc), Clutch Assembly, will be procured from an OEM.

Also matching gear box with correct ratios and sufficient strength to take the designed torque is available.

In short the successful design and manufacture of a Diesel Engine is a costly and long drawn affair, hence there are very few major players in this game. As far as I know, the Scorpio and Safari 2.2L CRDI Engine were designed by an external design firm, and customized by the respective companies. The Force One is using an MB design, while Gurkha used an older MB design. In fact most of the engine plants (barring Supercar engines, which are anyway mostly hand tooled and custom designed), have a capacity of 1/2 million or more of the same type.
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Old 7th September 2011, 18:02   #24
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xingamazon View Post

But what Suzuki has been doing allthiswhile is it has obtain a blue-print made from Fiat, and reproduce engine with same spec.
Now there is no R&D involved in that part.
Well, Suzuki (& TATA) do some minor tweaks on ECU parameters to obtain a better performance/drivability ratio.

What Suzuki loses out on is the more powered 1.6MJDs & the like. By aping FIAT tech., Suzuki is only able to do 1.3MJD FGTs (DDis) & VGTs(Super turbo DDis). While they do have a powerful-yet-efficient performer in the K-Series, the 'national engine' will lose its sheen once the 1.6 MJDs are launched. And, Fiat might keep these as exclusives as is the case with T-Jet.
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Old 7th September 2011, 18:28   #25
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

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Originally Posted by Gooney View Post

Also, Tata passenger vehicles use FIAT technology. Yes, they have in-house diesel engine, but they still use FIAT's. As for Ford's DuraTorq (1.4L), it was actually a technology borrowed from Peugeot.
DLD straight-4 engines were developed jointly by Ford Motor Company and the PSA Group (Peugeot/CitroŽn).

These engines are sold under the Duratorq TDCi name by Ford, and as the HDi by CitroŽn and Peugeot. Mazda also uses the DLD engine in the Mazda2 and the Mazda 3, calling it the MZ-CD or CiTD.

Source :Wiki Ford DLD engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 7th September 2011, 19:13   #26
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

Designing a new engine requires a lot of money and effort, a lot of effort which is generally not seen by many. Most of the people think that a new series of engines is easier to design than a new car, but actually its equally tough.
Moreover, the manufacturer has to take care that its not violating norms, etc. which again can sometimes result in delay or the team going back to square one.

Extensive calculations are done at multiple stages of development which need to be quite precise. All this would add upto cost along with testing. Remember that testing is a critical stage and if more than one places are revealed to be need of further engineering, things can be delayed further.

This all adds to cost and more importantly time. Suzuki is not having a huge pool of money and it has to decide which is more important thing to do. Example, focus and spend time + energy on development of new cars ( like the new Swift and Kizashi ) or new diesel engines. This is biggest constraint IMO. For other car makers who had more support of government ( like Hyundai ) it was an easier cake in the beginning and now have good resources to invest into more areas. Suzuki is not such a privileged manufacturer. Globally, Europeans, Ford and Hyundai are the one who are leading the race for diesels. Even Toyota seems to have suffered in case of diesel engines.

Its matter of where to spend and channelize efforts. To the best of my knowledge, a new engine series can eat into around Rs. 800cr. Suzuki can definitely pay a little less to Fiat, get license and produce the engines with success.
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Old 9th September 2011, 11:04   #27
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

Simple to understand if you read the points below and acknowledge that they are FACTS :

Suzuki Diesel runs on FIAT MJD technology - TRUE
Suzuki diesel Sells No. 1 in India .. - TRUE
Suzuki has access to VW technology now but has only increased their dependency on FIAT - TRUE
Suzuki is considered to be the most Fuel economical cars (The indian car buyer will always be asking ...kitna deti gain?? ) - TRUE

I hope all the answers above is TRUE to each one of us and the Bosses at Suzuki .

To summarize - I am the SUZUKI boss , i have access to FIAT and VW engines . I Sell the most in India with the most Fuel Economy cars delighting the Indian customers and now i want to Design my own engine ....

The above sentence sounds very stupid towards the end.

and i agree on the points made by Gooney .

EndNote - Apple has innumerable Technology Patents that the other phone companies are using paying them a Royalty. Why re-invent something that already is the best.
Unless you can make something that is in a different league.
Its a different matter altogether that many use the Apple Technology and are sued later by Apple.
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Old 9th September 2011, 11:17   #28
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

@Gooney, FastLove : I totally support your views. All that matters to a comp is how good their marketing strategy is selling. If Suzuki is able to sell more cars than fiat here with the same fiat engine then its a huge achievement for Suzuki.
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Old 9th September 2011, 13:11   #29
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Default Re: Why cant Suzuki make its own Diesel Engines ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieseldunk View Post
Well Xingamazon
My take on this may be that due to the enormous success of the Fiat engine Suzuki may have fear that their indigenous engine may not meet the same fan following. Truly the Swift DDIS stands out in the engine bedding the internal dynamics and piston positioning which is making it technically difficult to beat and displace from #1 slot.
Cheers
Prasad
Completely agree with you. Suzuki main markets are India and Japan. It might sell cars in Europe but not in big numbers. Japanese market is primarily Petrol and it made sense to source a Diesel engine for India than design one because it was cheaper. Since, they had a Link with Fiat through GM and the 1.3 engine was co-developed with GM. They went for it.
What Suzuki didn't anticipate was that it's diesel cars will sell so well in India.
Now they are caught in a dilemma. Indian market has a insatiable demand for diesel cars. So, worth development of a new engine but Suzuki being a petrol driven company, they fear their new diesel engine might not match the current engine.

With the recent developments, looks like they will not be coming out with one any time soon. They have agreed with Fiat to source more engines from Fiat's facility in Maharashtra. Lets's see if they might agree on bringing other engines from the family. Also, the Volkswagen tie up almost in tatters. They might go with fiat engines. They already use the 1.9 diesel engine in Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tj123 View Post
DLD straight-4 engines were developed jointly by Ford Motor Company and the PSA Group (Peugeot/CitroŽn).

These engines are sold under the Duratorq TDCi name by Ford, and as the HDi by CitroŽn and Peugeot. Mazda also uses the DLD engine in the Mazda2 and the Mazda 3, calling it the MZ-CD or CiTD.

Source :Wiki Ford DLD engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Since developing a new Engine for that matter any technology takes a lot of money and effort and very few companies have the scale and muscle for it. They share it. Duratorq is shared by the whole Ford (ex-family) group and PSA family.
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Old 9th September 2011, 13:56   #30
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Default Suzuki Motor​ís first diesel engine to be developed in India

Suzuki is developing their own diesel engine. This is a good step, as firstly they are not dependant on someone else and restricted on furthur develpement, and secondly they will save a lot on licensing costs (in the long run)

The other article below talks about Suzuki waiting for Fiat's 1L diesel engine. Interesting- I think this engine might make its debut on the Fiat India small car launching next year.


Quote:
Suzuki Motor Corp. has commenced work on two diesel engine prototypes—a first for the car maker—at its engine development centre in Manesar near Gurgaon. This comes amid talk of a possible break-up of the partnership between the Japanese company and German car maker Volkswagen AG​ (VW).

The diesel engines being developed will be the first to be indigenously developed by Suzuki Motor, three persons with direct knowledge of the matter told Mint. Two of them are working on the project. All of them requested anonymity.

“This is a five-year project, which kicked off at the beginning of this fiscal,” said one of the persons cited above. “A team of 30 engineers from India and Japan is being formed. Most of the recruitment for the project has been done.”

The project will initially focus on developing two kinds of engines—90 bhp and 75 bhp— and later another smaller one.

In 2009, Suzuki and VW signed an agreement under which the Japanese car maker was promised access to Volkswagen’s diesel technology and the German company was assured help in small car markets such as India.

“This is interesting. Suzuki’s lack of diesel technology has often hurt the company and it had to rely on technology sourced from Fiat,” said an expert with a leading consultancy firm. “We don’t have to look anywhere else but in India. Maruti first tried to go luxury with the Grand Vitara as a CBU (completely build-up unit) from Japan, but failed. The Suzuki SUV (sport utility vehicle) just wasn’t competitively priced and the absence of a diesel engine didn’t help.”

R.C. Bhargava, chairman of Suzuki’s local unit Maruti Suzuki India Ltd, said it was not easy to buy engines from other companies. In the long term, it is not feasible as it requires a lot of approvals. However, he refused to comment on the story.

“Suzuki is majority stakeholder in the powertrain facility. I would not like to comment on this,” he said. An email sent to a Suzuki spokesperson on 11 August did not elicit any response.

The diesel engines are being developed at Suzuki Powertrain India Ltd—a 70:30 joint venture between Suzuki Motor and Maruti Suzuki—at Manesar. It manufactures diesel engines and transmissions for cars.

“The project is under the supervision of two veteran engineers from India. They hold a technical review meeting every Monday to check the development,” said the second person involved with the project. “There is no fixed investment. It is still not in full swing due to hurdles related to decontrolling of diesel in India—the largest market for Suzuki.”

Suzuki currently does not have its own diesel engine and buys the technology from Fiat SpA. The Italian company provides the 1.3-litre multijet diesel engine that powers Maruti’s Ritz, Swift and DZire models.

Last month, Suzuki also agreed to buy a 1.6-litre diesel engine from Fiat’s powertrain unit to install in a car it will build in Hungary in 2013. The Japanese auto maker has been buying 2-litre diesel engines from Fiat Powertrain Technologies​ since 2006 for the SX4 made in Hungary.

“It is a long-term project and does not have a commercial motive as such. The idea is to be prepared for increasing demand of diesel cars in India and the company’s ambition in the Western market, which it thinks will revive by 2013 and where diesel still is a preferred fuel,” said the third person in the know.

India has seen a recent spurt in demand for diesel cars largely due to the price advantage against petrol. In New Delhi, diesel is retailed at Rs.41.29 per litre, at least Rs.26 cheaper than petrol. Currently, little under one in three passenger vehicles sold in India run on diesel.

Suzuki’s aspiration for diesel technology is well known. After signing a licensing agreement with Fiat in 2006, the Japanese auto maker formed a partnership with VW in 2009 to cooperate in small cars and new technologies. VW acquired a 19.9% stake in the Japanese group—which owns 54.21% stake in Maruti Suzuki—while Suzuki bought about 2.5% of VW. The deal promised VW the chance to build a bigger presence in the small car markets in India and Japan, while Suzuki hoped to gain access to VW’s expertise in diesel engines.

However, reports of tension between the partners soon emerged, with Yasuhito Harayama, Suzuki’s executive vice-president, last month saying that the groups have not cooperated on any projects in the 19 months since the alliance was formed. However, both companies subsequently sought to play down the differences.

Problem cropped up when a report in German newsletter Platow Brief, which did not say where it obtained the information from, highlighted concerns over the future of the alliance between the two auto makers.

Last month, Osamu Suzuki, chairman of the Japanese company, wrote in his blog that none of VW’s technologies were interesting enough to be adopted and that for the time being, Suzuki was in no hurry to collaborate in critical markets such as India.

“We are producing more than 200,000 units of our diesel engine, which is attracting a lot of attention in India. Thus, for the time being, particularly in critical markets like the minicar market and India, we are not in a hurry to collaborate with Volkswagen,” Suzuki wrote in his blog. --- Source

Maruti Suzuki bets on a small capacity 1,000cc diesel engine being developed by Fiat!

Quote:
Maruti has a solitary diesel engine in its entire portfolio, the highly acclaimed 1.3 Liter common rail turbodiesel engine developed by Italian automaker Fiat. Maruti has used this gem of an engine in a plethora of models ranging from the Swift Hatchback to the SX4 Sedan, with tremendous success. However, this also means that Maruti’s biggest sales successes like the 800cc Alto Hatchback are still in want of a small capacity diesel engine, much smaller than the 1,248cc Fiat multijet unit.

It is here that a 1,000cc small capacity diesel engine that Italian automaker Fiat is said to be developing could come in very handy for Maruti Suzuki. While Maruti has been evasive about the new engine, the 1,000cc capacity is a clear giveaway that the engine will not be anything else but a diesel engine as Maruti already has the highly refined and frugal 1 liter K-Series petrol engine that does duty on the likes of the Maruti Alto K10 and the A-Star. Fiat is said to be working on such an engine, although no specific time line seems to be available as to when the engine will be ready for commercial use.

Now, why is the diesel engine a must for cracking the Indian market?

In India, a country where frugal running is accorded the most importance by almost all budget car buyers, most cars sold are still under the 6 Lakh Rupee mark and are small cars whose main selling points remain an affordable price point and frugal running. Entry level small cars though, are predominantly petrol powered with the smallest capacity diesel engine having a capacity of 936cc being introduced quite recently in the Chevrolet Beat Diesel.
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