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Old 20th September 2011, 19:45   #91
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Default Re: Forster resigns from Tata Motors

A CEO position is not a low level job that can be filled up by a standardized process of elimination from a few hundred candidates. If indeed Forster had plans to quit he would have given sufficient notice/intimation of the same, so the company could prepare for a succession plan. And if he had been found unsuitable he would have been shunted out right on day 1. So I think people are justified to read more into this than meets the eye. It's not possible that Tata Motors acquired JLR without evaluating each and every one of the senior management thoroughly to know who could stay on and who couldn't.
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Old 20th September 2011, 20:01   #92
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Default Re: Forster resigns from Tata Motors

^^ Such resignation doesn;t happen in a single day like low level one. it;s not necessary that all these announcement are done to press. it;s like asking every CEO to announce if he is going to washroom or not. he was not a bolly wood celebrity that everything be announced . as for succession plan goes,no company depends on one individual alone .

I guess we are missing a very imp point, he may have resigned from CEO post but he still stays within the board of directors of TATA;s.so he can still bring the change he wanted to bring in .

Last edited by .sushilkumar : 20th September 2011 at 20:07.
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Old 20th September 2011, 22:58   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR View Post

Several years back, when Mercedes Benz and TML parted ways, MBIL and German exes were all praises for TELCO (as it then was). Thej most relevant quote I will never forget - "They are the only foreign collaborator (ie., non-German) who actually learnt something from us".


Sridhar-v - about the comment you made about oil sump painting issues. We had freshly launched a Tata bus sometime around that time.

The built for long distance bus", however needed a full engine overhaul in 3 months, and another in another 3 months. In next 3 months, the engine block developed a crack, and ultimately, we sourced a new engine. The booking for our next but- a yet to be delivered Telco Chassis was sold at a hefty premium and more than the premium, we were happy that the "tata" was off our heads. Related???
I agree about the comment of TELCO learning from MBIL. That was because of the ethos promoted by Mr. Moolgaonkar & his team.

Re ur engine issues- Well, in the early 1980's TELCO was operating with a lot of constraints, mostly due to Govt. Policy and the need to import almost all critical parts. So Indigenisation was an imperetive then. But they always put in their best effort. Recall my comment re Mr. Moolgaonkar in the begining or the comment re. oil seal leakages. So I would not unduly blame them for issues during that period. But now there is now excuse.


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Originally Posted by mallumowgli View Post
Vow that was quite something

But I doubt whether the reason for failure of electronics would be a manufacturing issue - it should be more of a design issue and the robustness of the components. I feel even if the components' repeatability and process stability parameters are met, the components will still fail. That may be the reason why, instead of various niggles you come across in a Tata, you have failure of components in German cars. That too same kind of complaints cropping up again and again
Well my experience with some defence projects and machine tool electronics suggests otherwise. There are process variation in electronics components production and some components are better than others. So it does make a difference. I have a few interesting examples which I will narrate in some lengthy posts over the next few days.

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Originally Posted by download2live View Post
You are the man. It is so interesting to know the inside story. Keep them coming. Anytime interacted with FIAT? Would love to learn their story also. The hidden story.

No wonder why number of thanks far exceeds the number of your posts.
Have interacted with Fiat' engine plant @ Ranjangaon. The machines that produce the cylinder heads & blocks have a process capability in excess of CPk 3.0. (it is a very high level) I am in the process of typing a couple of write-ups on factors affecting quality and will explain in detail there.

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
At the risk of sounding like a voyeur, would love to know the follow up.

Regards
Sutripta
Well the couple of machines doing part time machining for exports grew into a full fledged export oriented unit and is a major profit center now. We all learnt a lot in the process of tightening the production quality to the Jap's standards. Subsequent lots were successfully exported. I am not privy to what is the current status but will try & find out.

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Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
WHY?

Respected Sir,

All my life I have been closely related to this unsung heroes world - my dad was working as a QC person in a leading clutch & brake supplier for nearly all manufacturers in India. His stories of how Bajaj, AL, TML, M&M, etc fought over 2Rs per component still lingers inside my head!!

Santosh
Please no formal adressing. We are all like minded chaps sharing our knowledge and helping out each other. The very fact that u all are spending ur valuable time reading my posts, reacting, questioning and debating points is the best compliment u can give me.

I am sure ur father will have a lot of insights re quality & our market.


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Originally Posted by amitwlele View Post
Is the general Indian pysche or the "Chalta Hai" attitude one of the reasons for this? After all, the examples that are being cited as comparison are Japanese/German/American/Korean manufacturers.

Are any other Indian auto manufacturers any different?
Actually the reasons go deeper. I will explain in detail in the write-ups that I will be posting. As they say in advertising - watch this space!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
Hello Mods,

Request you to please club Sridhar-v's all manufacturing related posts into one separate thread and name it appropriately.

Sridhar-v, thanks a lot Sir! I had been wanting to know for the longest time all the information that you have shared with us!
Pls. no formal adressing. I also agree with this suggestion re separate posts. Alternatively a suffix " & a discussion re Quality" can be added to the tittle as this thread is turning out to be very interesting.
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Old 21st September 2011, 09:42   #94
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Originally Posted by sridhar-v View Post
one of the effects- the Indica's rear suspension camber angle goes phut in a significant no of cars!..

Dear Sir,

Very True. More than 50% of Indicabs have this problem in Bangalore. Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the problem and how does it happen ?

Regards,
Ravindra M
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Old 21st September 2011, 10:53   #95
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Default Re: Forster resigns from Tata Motors

I also feel that in India vehicle manufacturers get away with a lot of leeway with regard to complaints as the law is very lenient with them till now. There is no system of compulsory recall or claiming damages. The end user consumer will have to spend a lot of time, money and energy to fight it out legally and it makes more sense to sell the lemon than lament over it.
At the design and manufacturing stage the manufacturers are well aware of what they can get away with easily. The dealers too soft pedal these complaint each time and raise their hands once the warranty period is over. As Shridhar's posts repeatedly points out that the technical knowledge and human expertise is available but the will and perseverance of the management is unable to override the short term commercial interests.
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Old 21st September 2011, 11:07   #96
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Originally Posted by DDDHRUV View Post
I also feel that in India vehicle manufacturers get away with a lot of leeway with regard to complaints as the law is very lenient with them till now. ...
At the risk of going OT, a few days ago I read in the Economic Times that the government is planning to set up a system where a car buyer can lodge a complaint against defects in a car with the STA (State Transport Authority) and manufacturers could be fined upto 1L in case the defect is proven.

I would say it's a step in the right direction, though some may want to call it too little too late, or a very small step.

Mr. Shridhar, I am eagerly awaiting for your posts, not simply to know why TMIL is facing so many issues, but to also know how the major manufacturing companies work. You could write a good book with these experiences.
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Old 21st September 2011, 11:28   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravindra M View Post
Dear Sir,

Very True. More than 50% of Indicabs have this problem in Bangalore.
have you ever observed how the indicabs are driven over bad roads/ potholes as compared to indica owned by normal people / other hatchbacks ?

Normally people slowdown invariably at majot pothole ridden roads , but these indicabs who are always in a hurry does not even brake a bit and go over these bad roads.

Agree that the suspension part may be not as good as in other cars ( which are also 20-30% costlier) , but the treatment given to these indicabs are pathetic. also note that , these sort of failures happen in these cars after 9-18 months / more , but note the km run in this period ..it will be more than 65 to 70000 in each minimum.

Pls treat a Santro/Wagon-R/ estilo/ beat etc in the same way daily and observe how the suspension behaves over the same period !
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Old 21st September 2011, 11:39   #98
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Default Re: Forster resigns from Tata Motors

@Sridhar, the insights that you are sharing is capable of shaking one's confidence in TML's products. Personally, have been a long time TML customer, and seem to have got the good pieces so far. But reading your posts here, doubts have crept in. Best case: I hope I dont have to go car shopping soon. Because spares availability is one advantage that TML products still have, compared to some others ( M&M & Maruti also have that)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar-v View Post
So you had 2 people competing for the post of MD. - One who was showing immediate results & another who was doing things for the long term good but increasing current pain. Guess who won??

So Forster tried to continue where Sumantran had been stopped. No way that he would have been allowed to succeed.
Considering the image that Ratan Tata has, wasnt he able to do anything here (in both cases) ?

Last edited by condor : 21st September 2011 at 11:40.
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Old 21st September 2011, 14:39   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing View Post
have you ever observed how the indicabs are driven over bad roads/ potholes as compared to indica owned by normal people / other hatchbacks ?

Normally people slowdown invariably at majot pothole ridden roads , but these indicabs who are always in a hurry does not even brake a bit and go over these bad roads.

Agree that the suspension part may be not as good as in other cars ( which are also 20-30% costlier) , but the treatment given to these indicabs are pathetic. also note that , these sort of failures happen in these cars after 9-18 months / more , but note the km run in this period ..it will be more than 65 to 70000 in each minimum.

Pls treat a Santro/Wagon-R/ estilo/ beat etc in the same way daily and observe how the suspension behaves over the same period !
If you think all the Indica cab drivers like to bang their cars through each and every pothole available on the road, you are quite wrong. Also if you think the Indica cab drivers are the only people who like to do this, again you are wrong. None of the other vehicles shows a "spread your legs" kind of a stance, for that matter. Not even the decades old Premier Padmini taxis, not Santros, not M800s, absolutely NONE.

My Santro has run 75k now, have been driving it through monsoons last three years. The car is eight years old, has already been restored after the July 2005 floods. The suspension is original and still working great. So I won't accept your contention that rough driving over bad roads has anything to do with the Indica's rear stance.

I have actually come to a point where the moment I spot an Indica in front, my eyes inadvertently travel to its bottom and I almost always get the chance to point out to my co-passengers, "Look, she has her legs spread out!".
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Old 21st September 2011, 14:57   #100
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Default Re: Forster resigns from Tata Motors

1)No where i said its all indicabs , its majority are ill treated
2) Mostly all indicabs are loaded with 3 passengers in rear seat, that cosntitutes 75% of their total kms covered. How many times are private vehicles loaded like that?
3) I also have a santro , 6+ years old ....suspension way worse than indica since i drive both on same road.
4) PS: I have not disputed the camber angle issue in any Indica, yes thats a problem in some cars but that definitely gets multiplied by absue in Indicabs.
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Old 21st September 2011, 15:28   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
If you think all the Indica cab drivers like to bang their cars through each and every pothole available on the road, you are quite wrong. Also if you think the Indica cab drivers are the only people who like to do this, again you are wrong. None of the other vehicles shows a "spread your legs" kind of a stance, for that matter. Not even the decades old Premier Padmini taxis, not Santros, not M800s, absolutely NONE.

My Santro has run 75k now, have been driving it through monsoons last three years. The car is eight years old, has already been restored after the July 2005 floods. The suspension is original and still working great. So I won't accept your contention that rough driving over bad roads has anything to do with the Indica's rear stance.

I have actually come to a point where the moment I spot an Indica in front, my eyes inadvertently travel to its bottom and I almost always get the chance to point out to my co-passengers, "Look, she has her legs spread out!".
Not sure if it's reasonable to compare a Cab with Pvt Owned vehicles. We all know that Cabs are driven by multiple drivers with varying styles and mostly loaded with passengers/luggage. These cabs are meant for that. Moreover the cabs accumulate fast mileage on ODO and never attend to service intervals on time since the owner of the vehicle is trying to recover his investment fast. I know few transport owners (mostly my school buddies ) and have seen them treat their vehicles nothing but money spinning machines.
We owners will take care of our car really well irrespective of driving condition. We may pass over bad roads but as owners we know how to treat them well.
So PLEASE lets not compare a self-driven Santro with a IndiaCAB.

No offence meant to any of the owners but If santros/Zen/i10/WagonR/Swift/etc are driven like indicab (i.e covering 80000+ Kms in one year, 90% of times loaded with people/luggage, passing through all kinda terrain/whether without proper servicing) then every machine (read as CAR) will end up having same issues like Indicab.
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Old 21st September 2011, 15:38   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar-v View Post
Pls. no formal adressing. I also agree with this suggestion re separate posts. Alternatively a suffix " & a discussion re Quality" can be added to the tittle as this thread is turning out to be very interesting.
I finally got the time to go through your earlier posts.
Indeed, its totally enlightening.
Now I really understand, why did my indica alternator fail so many times. The new alternator(same spec, from Lucas, but generic, goes in many cars) is doing fine.
The belt screeches no matter what I do. My electrician tells me that if he tightens it, it will screech less, but then alternator bearings will go toast.
My safari, well thats an altogether different story. My three year old vehicle is brand new thanks to everything being replaced, from the common rain, to the fuel pump to the injectors to the differential to what not.

Anyways, it makes me wonder. See, my safari has had retro fitments of over 2-3L in MRP due to manufacturing defects.
So tata sold me a Safari for 9L ex showroom, and then have spent 2-3L in MRP to fix it as something goes bust now or then.
Is this tracked anywhere.
If a vehicle needs lakhs worth of repairs couple of months after being delivered to customer, is somebody in the QC dept pulled up?

Every 4x4 safari I know needs a rear diff replacement(LSD kit) after 60-65000kms, I am sure Tata motors would be aware of this. Do they not care?

The vehicle testing guys, while testing the safari would have faced issues like power windows jamming up, ECU malfunction, dust in cabin etc., Do they also do not care.

What decides their salary? I work in QC, and my performance is measured by how many releases I can delay. I guess in Tata its the opposite. As long as they stamp "Approved" they keep their jobs. When they stamp "rejected" they get pulled up.

As for their market share, I guess shareholders need not money. Indian consumer is very immature when it comes to car loyalties and expectations.

I have people telling me that power windows occasionally jamming is a niggle, and it does not mean that Tata Safari is junk.
another gentleman on this forum argues, that since only 10% of safari owners have problem with their vehicle its an excellent product.

They do not understand that world has moved on. 1 in 1000 failure is also considered bad.

Thats why people keep on buying Skodas inspite of their dubious record.
But hopefully, as globalization brings more "proper cars" to our country, the consumer here will understand that just painting a dashboard in beige color does not mean its luxury. Or that its not okay if dust comes into the cabin. Or that indicator stops working after 6 months is not a niggle, its a sign of poor quality.

Only when people realize that, the jugaads which TML makes will stop selling. Till then people will keep buying these contraptions, and write golden reviews
eg.
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I love my XYZ vehicle. It ran for full 2000kms before the brakes failed and in the collision I only lost my legs. My tank like vehicle saved my life. I love it
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Old 21st September 2011, 17:16   #103
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Originally Posted by harishpr View Post
Not sure if it's reasonable to compare a Cab with Pvt Owned vehicles. ...
Does this still explain why only the Indicas on the road show this?

If the rated capacity of a car is five people, do you really expect the car should not hold up over a period of five years and a lakh kilometres even if every day five people travelled in it?

I am sorry but I am unable to make out why you are dragging outside elements such as bad roads and rash driving into the Indica's rear wheels splayed out. I can't make the connection.

tsk1979, it's only if Tatas undertake this study that they will realize how much they end up spending. Most times upfront and mindless cost cutting results in the money being spent somewhere else. This could be a glaring example of the same. Maybe Tatas should partner with a Japanese company.
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Old 21st September 2011, 17:42   #104
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I have observed that while the earlier Indicas almost always exhibited "spread out" rear wheels, the later ones do not. I thought the issue had been resolved successfully.

It may be pointed out that Indica is the only car in its segment to have an independent rear suspension and so there is a design issue involved as well. To keep things simpler and less "spread-prone", with Vista, TM shifted to a non-independent set up at the rear, the usual norm in the segment.
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Old 21st September 2011, 21:28   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar-v View Post
...
So they put in the CMM, as advised by me, in an inline layout i.e. it was a part of the production line. At that time it was a revolutionary step in Pune, though I knew of it having become common practice abroad.
...
Just a totally OT question.
So CMM is inline. 100% checking. What action does one take when one notices
an out of spec component?
a trend/ drift, but absolute values are within specs?

Will not resetting machines/ tools will cause a discontinuity which will lead to greater scatter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar-v View Post
...
( one of the effects- the Indica's rear suspension camber angle goes phut in a significant no of cars!.)
...
If the cars leave the factory with the correct setting, will it not point to a design issue rather than a manufacturing/ process issue?

Regards
Sutripta
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