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Old 21st September 2011, 21:49   #106
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Default Re: Forster resigns from Tata Motors

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Anyways, it makes me wonder. See, my safari has had retro fitments of over 2-3L in MRP due to manufacturing defects.
So tata sold me a Safari for 9L ex showroom, and then have spent 2-3L in MRP to fix it as something goes bust now or then.
Is this tracked anywhere.
If a vehicle needs lakhs worth of repairs couple of months after being delivered to customer, is somebody in the QC dept pulled up?

Every 4x4 safari I know needs a rear diff replacement(LSD kit) after 60-65000kms, I am sure Tata motors would be aware of this. Do they not care?

The vehicle testing guys, while testing the safari would have faced issues like power windows jamming up, ECU malfunction, dust in cabin etc., Do they also do not care.

They do not understand that world has moved on. 1 in 1000 failure is also considered bad.
I am sure this costs TATA alot of money, but a significant percentage of these recalls and replacements quite possibly get passed directly onto their suppliers.

As for the 1 in 1000 - As an automotive manufacturing company, we get measured on a PPM basics (Parts Per Million). The PPM here is the number of rejects or suspects parts per million parts supplied.

Most Japanese or Japanese influenced companies have an allowable PPM of 5, where as most European companies have a 25-30PPM limit.

I am not sure what TML's QC department seem as acceptable.

I also feel there is a level of 'Denial' involved. We have a few Indian steel suppliers, but the level of response you receive is so different. Nothing ever seems to be their fault.
Does Tata see their reliability problems as their own or is it always blamed on suppliers, roads, drivers, etc?

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Old 22nd September 2011, 00:00   #107
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the consumer here will understand that just painting a dashboard in beige color does not mean its luxury.


Frankly I do not know when the quality will improve. Quality comes at a cost. And for a nation known for price consciousnesses its indeed a rather fine balancing act.

Take for example Aria. Now when it comes to outrageous pricing the phrase going around is "They did an Aria".

Where is Mr Sridhar?
We are waiting Sir for more inside stores. Especially on Aria.

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Old 22nd September 2011, 09:31   #108
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As expected this thread has become a TATA;s bashing thread despite being about a CEO;s resign.

problem is that people expect a Porsche At the cost of a safari and a audi at the price of a Indica. IMO the no of properly maintained Indica;s is very less and maintenance of those running with fleet operators is anybody;s guess. Needless to say those who have maintained well , still swear by their indica' s . we have a ritz/santro in Our office running as CAB . Will try to source pics of both ( with all most same Odo ) to show the difference. as for build quality goes, that;s any day better than Maruti's or Hyundai 's. at least i never seen a rattling indica so far where as my friends 20 K run swift rattles more than a drum . IMO nobody will agree here ..Period !!!!!!!
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Old 22nd September 2011, 09:38   #109
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Agree @.sushilkumar; See the number of cribs about the Etios not have double seals on the doors, etc. I expect similar about the Brio once it is launched. We want a Rolls at the price of a Nano, with a 50kpl consumption as well.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:02   #110
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Agree @.sushilkumar; See the number of cribs about the Etios not have double seals on the doors, etc. I expect similar about the Brio once it is launched. We want a Rolls at the price of a Nano, with a 50kpl consumption as well.

Thanks for agreeing with me sir. I thought i am the only rebel here.we will Never criticize any Japanese / Korean or any other . Why Because they are paying us ( Pun intended ) to buy their cars and saying good words about them. what if they exploit our own country man . they are paying us . it;s a different matter that they are throwing what ever junk they produce to Indian customer at double / triple the price and we happily lap it up being a imported car but than we have a history of being fascinated with anything phoren.


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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:15   #111
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Fully agree with Sushil and sgiitk.

Yes this thread has been converted to Tata bashing instead now and people are just more than happy to bash a india grown company /product and in all praise for korean/ jap stuff, which are much costlier ( less VFM than Tata's).

Also, looks like there are few souls in the forum ( sorry about that) who may have experienced some bitterness somewhere with Tata's in their professional journey and are venting it out here.
Trust me Tata's will not stoop down such low to come and counter those points which may be wrong as well ( who will validate them ?) . They are open to feedback much better than the Hyundai's/ Toyota/other foren cos.

Tata are improving and trying best to adjust to the indian customers rather than dumping junkies at much higher price to indian people.

People just forget the cost factor of Tata vehicles and compare Endy with Safari/ Aria ....is that not simple o/t and misleads the forum members.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:45   #112
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Yes this thread has been converted to Tata bashing instead now and people are just more than happy to bash a india grown company /product and in all praise for korean/ jap stuff, which are much costlier ( less VFM than Tata's).

Tata are improving and trying best to adjust to the indian customers rather than dumping junkies at much higher price to indian people.
In my view its not TATA bashing but a fair comparison. Tata cars like Indica directly compete with Korean and Japanese cars (Santo/i10/Ritz etc). I donít think Korean/jap cars are much costlier than Indica. In fact, the newly launched Jazz is not far away from top end Indica.

I agree that some of the foreign brands are dumping outdated models on us at a higher price (such as Toyota Etios) but Tatas are also not far behind in fooling the customers. Apart from the Indica and its zillion variations, there are hardly any competitive Tata cars on the market. Nano was promising but going downhill and with the launch of Hyundai Eon, we will see more customers dumping Nano and going for Eon.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:48   #113
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Default Re: Forster resigns from Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
As expected this thread has become a TATA;s bashing thread despite being about a CEO;s resign.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Agree @.sushilkumar; ... We want a Rolls at the price of a Nano, with a 50kpl consumption as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing View Post
Fully agree with Sushil and sgiitk.
...
Trust me Tata's will not stoop down such low to come and counter those points which may be wrong as well ( who will validate them ?) . They are open to feedback much better than the Hyundai's/ Toyota/other foren cos.
People aren't complaining why Tata aren't providing automatic climate control in the Indica. People are complaining why the whole car isn't working flawlessly from day one. And since they paid for their products in full, I think they have every right to complain.

About the outdated products being dumped here: try comparing prices of both the Sumo and the Qualis in the used car market. Or try comparing the feedback of Innova owners to the Safari owners in terms of 'niggles' found in their vehicles.

Last edited by honeybee : 22nd September 2011 at 10:56.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:56   #114
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^^ don't wish to get into a pointless debate here like it has been for 7 pages now, but if TATA;s car's are not working flawlessly than why Whole of India is buying them and show me a single car which has worked flawlessly. All go to service centers for various problems or others . If you point me a single car , i will hang myself upside down and sing "jack and Jill" for whole of my life.

you are getting what you are paying for. at least they honor the warranty claims without a question being asked unlike other where they wait for warranty to expire and than tell the customer that pls take the car away as warranty has expired. it;s a diff matter that when the car entered the service center , it still has 7 days of warranty left or when they refused engine warranty because the Owner has changed the Bulb on his car. there are many more such stories , only thing is that they don;t get into public domain for obvious reasons.

Last edited by .sushilkumar : 22nd September 2011 at 11:00. Reason: speeling correction
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Old 22nd September 2011, 11:14   #115
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Default Re: Forster resigns from Tata Motors

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we will Never criticize any Japanese / Korean or any other . Why Because they are paying us ( Pun intended ) to buy their cars and saying good words about them.
I think you have got the wrong point. This thread is not about bashing Tata. I love the fact that this thread was created because as a Safari owner, I want to understand why the product is marred with small - small niggles- even when I have treated it with silken hands?

You can read my ownership thread on this very forum where I have gone ga-ga over it. But now I haven't updated the thread for sometime because it has been a progressively irritating experience maintaining it since the last 4-5 months.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing View Post

Also, looks like there are few souls in the forum ( sorry about that) who may have experienced some bitterness somewhere with Tata's in their professional journey and are venting it out here.


People just forget the cost factor of Tata vehicles and compare Endy with Safari/ Aria ....is that not simple o/t and misleads the forum members.
On the other hand I feel indebted to the souls who have shared with us the insider stories, which as a consumer have made me more knowledgeable.

Agreed, Tata cars cost less compared to competitors. But I feel apart from ingenuity on their part, they have also resorted to doing cheap things to produce cheap cars.

A case in point: Both the keys (orignal & duplicate) of my Safari broke....and without warning and the second time while in the middle of a highway. On both occasions the key looked proper, but as soon as I inserted them to unlock the door , they broke. And before you blame me, both the keys of our previous Safari also broke in a similar fashion. Now I also have other cars, how come I don't break their keys?

I have other small anecdotes to share too, which drive home the point that Tata vehicles have inconsistent quality levels. Also please understand, this is not bashing them or having an attitude of mistrust against home grown manufacturers. There are many things to appreciate about Safari as a product and which appeal to me a lot and am sure there are such attributes for other Tata cars too, but overall if you ask me, I sometimes do feel that I should have rather bought an Innova - only because Safari is becoming an increasing pain to maintain!
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Old 22nd September 2011, 11:20   #116
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I also believe that this thread has become a TATA bashing thread. But i guess people are only voicing their opinions (which may not always be on the basis of first hand experience). We only need to acknowledge the opinions and move ahead.

My personal view is that TATA cars have come a long way from the initial start and Vista/Manza are definitely leagues ahead in terms of quality and finish. This leads me to believe that they are consiously trying to improve. As a value package its gives the consumers a decent buy. All the Japs/Koreans/Germans have a old legacy in car manufacturing and TATA has to do a catch up very fast. And i think they are trying.

I am still waiting for inputs from Sridhar about my initial query. Is the Indian Psyche or Chalta Hai Attitude behind the quality woes of Indian Auto Manufacturers?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 11:33   #117
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Any healthy debate needs to focus on both sides of the story and I pointed out before on this thread as well, that a one-sided view does not complete the picture. Everyone has a right to compare apples with oranges - but the comparison may not yield any productive outcome.

At a broad level i have seen most of us agree that

1. Tata vehicles broadly are VFM products.
2. Tata vehicles have historically not focused on quality and are not at par with competition (on quality).
3. Tata vehicles have improved tremendously (in quality) over multiple iterations.
4. Tata Motors have in general responded to feedback (if we look at the big picture).
5. Tata Motors A-S-S sucks.


Let us be critical where Tata Motors has failed, but not forget to appreciate them where they have done well. As a customer, if my primary requirement was VFM and space, TML Vehicles would probably top my list. If my primary requirement was quality and/or luxury, it would be a different manufacturer. Different customers have different requirements and general trends do change with time.

With Aria (and hopefully their future launches) Tata Motors has displayed the appetite to change their core competency (and thus unfortunately moving away from VFM/Affordable) and let us hope they do well. The intent to improve seems to be in place, let us see if they are successful in implementing as well.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 11:49   #118
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Default Re: Forster resigns from Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
As expected this thread has become a TATA;s bashing thread despite being about a CEO;s resign.

problem is that people expect a Porsche At the cost of a safari and a audi at the price of a Indica.
I could not get it. You want to say that the only high end cars have power windows that work?
Our getz had power windows which worked.
Quote:
IMO the no of properly maintained Indica;s is very less and maintenance of those running with fleet operators is anybody;s guess.
a fleet operator has very different requirements. They earn on any km. Even a very problematic indica will not exceed 3-4rs/km in maintenance cost after 100,000kms. A fleet operator who charges 12rs-25rs/km will not be bothered by one rs extra in maitenance cost. Moreover, Going to get some minor niggle fixed, for example, AC blower not working on setting one, but working on setting two three or four is not a priority. But wait, I think Only Porsches and Audis have working AC blowers?
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Needless to say those who have maintained well , still swear by their indica' s . we have a ritz/santro in Our office running as CAB . Will try to source pics of both ( with all most same Odo ) to show the difference. as for build quality goes, that;s any day better than Maruti's or Hyundai 's. at least i never seen a rattling indica so far where as my friends 20 K run swift rattles more than a drum . IMO nobody will agree here ..Period !!!!!!!
so if 9 out of 10 indicas are fine, its a good thing? I think the Tata QC folks also think like that. If 9 out of 10 customers do not get problematic vehicles, their job is done?

But maybe I have unrealistic expectations. Only Audis have working power windows, eh?

And speaking of cabs why should I care about indicabs or ritz cabs. If you want to hang upside down, please go through safari reviews of all members who have put up reviews on this forum.
Then in the evening hang yourself upside down after reading the report of a member who had a chasis changed
then hang upside down again after reading report from a member whose cars lights(headlights/taillights) stopped working on the eve of delivery.
Hang upside down on reading about the safari which was stranded on the highway within couple of months of ownership because some sensor went bust.
Hang upside down on reading the report from a member whose safari was in workshop for 1 month as they could not fix some ecu problem.

Getting stranded on the road may be a niggle to you, and complaining about it may be Tata bashing. But own a safari, and then talk. I challenge you to find a review of a safari done 50,000kms where the owner has not had to go to the Workshop to get one niggle fixed after other.

And do not forget to post pics of yourself hanging upside down

Last edited by tsk1979 : 22nd September 2011 at 11:54.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 12:00   #119
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Our getz had power windows which worked.
Yes, Hyundai power windows are much better than Maruti. I had an Esteem VX (one of the earliest ones, hence not a i). In its six years with me the power windows failed at least four times, mostly due to wires being frayed at the point they enter the doors. I had an Accent for almost eight years, and did not have a single power window problem.

Once a thing is there it should work - period.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 12:03   #120
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I could not get it. You want to say that the only high end cars have power windows that work?
Our getz had power windows which worked.

a fleet operator has very different requirements. They earn on any km. Even a very problematic indica will not exceed 3-4rs/km in maintenance cost after 100,000kms. A fleet operator who charges 12rs-25rs/km will not be bothered by one rs extra in maitenance cost. Moreover, Going to get some minor niggle fixed, for example, AC blower not working on setting one, but working on setting two three or four is not a priority. But wait, I think Only Porsches and Audis have working AC blowers?

so if 9 out of 10 indicas are fine, its a good thing? I think the Tata QC folks also think like that. If 9 out of 10 customers do not get problematic vehicles, their job is done?

But maybe I have unrealistic expectations. Only Audis have working power windows, eh?
tanveer , point is that no product is trouble free. nobody is perfect when it comes to mass production of cars or any other product for that matter. If your indica has a power switch failure than there are 9 others as well who are working fine. Why point out that one only and forgetting about 9 others which are running fine . Every car has a niggle or two and where did i pointed out Power windows switches and Ac blowers things . Let us not talk in single context. one needs to see the whole picture.

As for quality goes, it;s a continuous improvement process . like of toyota's / honda still hasn't perfect that despite being in market for many decades now . aren;t we over expecting here given that they are in passenger car market for just 15-18 years now .everybody would agree here that the newly launched cars has way better quality and interiors with less niggles compared to earlier one .

No offense but yes, you have unrealistic expectations considering above.
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