Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 13th September 2011, 03:56   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
S350L-E240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: India
Posts: 1,416
Thanked: 373 Times
Default BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Hello everyone,

Before I start this post, a sincere thanks to the moderator 'Rehaan' who was nice enough to send me all the posts from a thread which had to be removed for certain reasons,

Secondly these are only quotes from that thread which I am trying to format as well as possible for everyone to understand it, and if something is confusing you do post, will try answer it to the best I can. As most of these itself were my answers to clear a lot of doubts of other members and some questions directed at me.

The below deals with a general matter related to premium small cars and hatches by luxury car makers like BMW / Audi & Mercedes, while a lot of news come out and without trying to be disrespectful to any auto journals / magazines they do post a lot of information which mostly has been created and / or posted only to fill pages and sell more, but Team-Bhp being a free community lot of information can be posted without any financial benefit which allows a lot of facts to come out, once again this does not mean others do not post facts but there are things where information can misguide unless well communicated.

I personally am not the best in the world for communication but will give it my best shot in this thread, If and when cars like the A / 1 / A1 come into the country do understand they will cater to a very different target audience, and while a lot of us ask questions like would these brands want to water down? Well honestly in most developed markets these cars have existed for years now and while BMW / Audi & Mercedes are premium brands, they are not exactly niche brands or brands which are exclusive or something with a limited presence they basically are in simple words " Mass market premium car " with a product mix which caters to perhaps a young college graduate and then going up the ladder with age and range of products and all are well categorized and each has it's identity of not crossing into each others territory except a few in a similar price band.

Even when these cars come to India, do not assume you will see them the way you see an i20 along the parking lots as even the basic cars will be above 15L Ex-Showroom with good enough local content, and they offer little space so for anyone thinking that a 15 lac BMW will kill all others in the segment no, it will not, the Jetta will sell as well as the others and what will happen is the 15 Lac BMW / Others will create a niche for itself but of course I do not rule out a little cross selling which is bound to happen, someone in my own family was looking for a 7 seater SUV and instead of the Fortuner went and got the X1 which I still do not understand why is it considered an SUV. (No offense to any X1 owners its a wonderful car not an SUV)

You also must understand these companies all need volumes, but they will ensure each offering is a premium offering and will never be out in the crowd the way you would perhaps see a hatchback from Hyundai, etc. They will always be charged a lot more, and those who need a bigger car will continue to drive and look for a bigger car, but once the bigger car comes in, expect them to look for the unusual, and expect a lot of cheaper variants from all the 3 big german carmakers including FWD cars from BMW, Smaller roadsters from BMW and Mercedes and do not think Audi will sit and watch they are getting equally aggressive and with Chinese markets in their clutches they have a smart drive ahead, also expect a lot of part sharing among variants so do not be too surprised when you see 3-4 similar looking cars in the showroom, they may have similar aspects but they will all offer you an experience they intend to offer you, a roadster will bring the sky on your face, and a SUV will give you a little extra ground clearance that it's platform derived roadster, but the corporate identity will continue and go even further down and integrate the design language.

I also understand we as a community love gadgets in our cars and sometimes if there are certain features missing everyone is disappointed and I have read statements like would the car makers dare to not have ACC / similar in Europe / USA, well believe me we get a lot more standard equipment in our base cars compared to those markets, yes we do pay a lot more money and some of it may not be justified by us and some may be but ultimately the choice lies with us the Consumer, but its important to get to know when these small cars arrive do expect to see some unthinkable and at that time I wish we as a community who talk about being mature are able to digest an omission of leather @ the price? Or some thing else that perhaps by then the neighbors i20 / Verna may have, So my point is do not assume that the BMW @ 15 L will have memory seats / LCDs / Nappa leather etc.

And below are the posts from the thread do read they should give you a lot better insight on the future of premium small cars / hatches and mini sedans and SUV's from the Germans.

Quote:
2012 is Important for BMW India and BMW as a whole as their new 1 and it's variants along with the new 3 the most important model for them with the 5 comes in it's new generation and goes on sale and the arrival of 3 is what is making BMW India re-think it's 1 series plans as they do not have the capacity to take care of three volume products (X1,1,3) at the same time from the same plant the way it is for now, so while the products are being thought about, I can give you few points,

1. Mini WILL launch before the 1 does.

2. BMW 3 will be a massive launch with some very special variants covering a huge price band. We might even see the 3 at Auto Expo if all goes well. It will break the segment in a huge manner, and I can assure you the C-Class facelift will have had a very short period of glory.

3. Anyone who thinks 1 is sold only due to brand, believe me have owned it and it's a wonderful car, very useful for Indian daily use needs, and considering now there is such a huge database of premium car owners who currently use an i20 / Jazz and others will definitely think getting to the 1.

4. It's very very important for us to stop comparing any car prices with prices in the US, I mean most perhaps do not know this but there are loads of cars from Germany which are cheaper in US than its own home country, and I am speaking of cars made in Germany itself and sold in US. The volumes US gives is way too good for a car maker to even think of pricing the cars like the US. We have to stop this argument, also while the cars are cheaper there a lot of standard features that make it into cars here are expensive options, I had the ML (Previous Generation) and the door pads did not even have leather,

5. The 1 when it comes will have good amount of local content and as I have said in some other thread there is a huge effort being made to try get it at a price of 16L Ex-Showroom, (Inflation excluded)

Most likely Variants will be 116i/116d and another high end variant, but do not expect all cars to have equipment levels like the 5 or similar. This may change as soon BMW also plans to have a few 3 cylinder engines, but when concrete data is out will update this.
Quote:
Will keep my post simple to help others also,

1. Indian market has shown a lot of maturity with the X1 and it's what has made BMW / Others get more confident in their small cars, and yes it will be a slow and gradual process for the market to mature completely to issues like fabric seats and non climate control units in base car but it will build up slowly and for BMW it's important to be the benchmark and the leader of what direction to take.

In fact fabric seats were highly considered for X1 base model in India but they realized / felt people here would be more pleased with the fake leather, and I for one would have loved fabric over the rough texture of the X1 corporate edition upholstery, but this idea can be looked at for the 116i when launched?

2. Expect the 1 to be positioned at a very youthful crowd, and expect things like Apps, Idrive and various other features but do not assume this will break any benchmarks but expect it to meet every safety need and any omissions will only be in the trim levels or equipment.

Manual Transmission could be considered but only if volumes justify or else to import the transmission will make the 1 fall into the 30% tax bracket something which BMW India will avoid at all costs,

3. MINI, It was seriously considered sometime ago but due to reasons unknown the plans were put back and they wanted to focus more on their core portfolio of 5 and 3, and then of course the F10 and then the X1, now that in the last 3 years they have built their customer base and a large one in so little time they are ready to give us all a new dimensions which they will from 2012.

Mini like I said will be in India soon and much before the arrival of 1. And while a lot of reports keep cropping up, I have stayed away from rumors and avoid posting them and incase there is a time when I am not sure of it I always have made it a point to mention that.

Important point to note, Mini will be expensive so be prepared and ignore any car magazines who perhaps might lead you other wise.

4. 3 Cylinders / FWD will be a part of BMW's future, sad yes, but they are doing it and should be out soon with a base model of 1 cylinder per 500 CC, and don't worry about BMW's 3 cylinder power, they will do a wonderful job compared to anything from the VAG group, but do not forget the VAG's 1.2 TSI's are quite nice compared to the Indian polo engine and to give you an example the 1.6 L 4Cyl engine in the 118i makes 170 bhp and takes the car from 0-100 in 7.4 seconds.

3Cyl : 1500cc
4Cyl : 2000cc
6Cyl : 3000cc ..... And so on..!

The 1 is a perfect combination of a car with it's 50:50 distribution, good quality, Rear wheel drive and a great road presence.

Regards,
I hope none here have been offended, also understand I am not at all pointing fingers at anyone personally my point of this entire post is to only pass information which will be highly important to anyone here who perhaps maybe waiting for that A-Class a lot of media since 10 years loves to print that its coming in 2 years, also do be prepared for a whole new experience, premium it will be but only ACC / Sunroofs are not about a premium car there is a lot more to it and do look at it with an open mind, I also understand a lot here may disagree completely or partially and I would love comments but do try not get aggressive and also do read it all before finding any faults as come times I have been quoted out of context and the meaning completely changes.

Lastly, I am in no way associated with any car maker, the above is mostly me sharing personal information and certain practical aspects and some concrete information, I do not gain any benefits by the above its all pure knowledge sharing and nothing else.

Typed all of the above while watching the U.S Open Finals, 3.55 AM now, 2 sets down, No sleep in sight!

Regards,

Last edited by S350L-E240 : 13th September 2011 at 04:11.
S350L-E240 is offline   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2011, 08:51   #2
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: hyderabad
Posts: 26
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

Post deleted by the Team-BHP Support : Please do NOT post one-liners that add little or no informational value to the thread. We need your co-operation to maintain the overall quality of this forum.

Please read our rules before proceeding any further.

Last edited by GTO : 13th September 2011 at 14:43.
nishantmohan is offline   Reply With Quote Received Infraction
Old 13th September 2011, 09:26   #3
BHPian
 
2cents's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: India
Posts: 321
Thanked: 75 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by S350L-E240 View Post
I personally am not the best in the world for communication but will give it my best shot in this thread,....
That's the only part I'm not willing to believe. Thanx for retrieving that lost info and starting this thread - one I'll be glued to, looking for updates!
2cents is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2011, 10:11   #4
BHPian
 
amitg79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 353
Thanked: 224 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Will the 1 come in a sedan body-type for India? Top Gear India said a couple of months ago that the 1, the Mercedes B class and the Audi A3 sedans were expected in the 18-25 lakh Rupees price category.
amitg79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2011, 11:23   #5
BHPian
 
Frankazoid!!!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Thane
Posts: 62
Thanked: 20 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

I for one would seriously consider the BMW 1 series in the next 3-4 years even though the front end styling is not particularly to my taste. However the thing that excites me the most about this car is the rear wheel drive layout! I am sure there are many more like minded enthusiasts out there who would be willing to sacrifice practicality for some genuine rear drive action. I think this would be a potentially profitable move by BMW.
Frankazoid!!! is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2011, 14:15   #6
Distinguished - BHPian
 
swiftnfurious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Chennai
Posts: 6,449
Thanked: 6,438 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Just came across Hormazd's tweet that Mini will be launched in India in 2012 ! That's just an year ahead !

And yeah, a good write up. You are way too humble to mention you are not good in communication, but you did a good job!

Edit:: Hey, would you have some more info on whats in store with the new 3 series launch? Looks like a segment game changer from your words!

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 13th September 2011 at 14:20.
swiftnfurious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2011, 15:20   #7
Senior - BHPian
 
S350L-E240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: India
Posts: 1,416
Thanked: 373 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Replies in Bold,

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cents View Post
That's the only part I'm not willing to believe. Thanx for retrieving that lost info and starting this thread - one I'll be glued to, looking for updates!

Thanks a lot for your kind words, I wrote that to ensure I never get mis quoted nor would I want to have anyone be mislead with information as it is really important to avoid rumours, will ensure I keep you posted on the plans as I wrote in the previous post right now the issue they are confused about is if they should have seperate dealers for Mini or integrate it with existing BMW dealers with a seperate section but will know very soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitg79 View Post
Will the 1 come in a sedan body-type for India? Top Gear India said a couple of months ago that the 1, the Mercedes B class and the Audi A3 sedans were expected in the 18-25 lakh Rupees price category.

Mercedes /Audi / BMW are still charting out plans please avoid reading too deep into magazines, I will update this post as well as possible with any news mostly it will be about Mercedes / BMW but will try Audi too, and sedans will come but at a much later stage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Just came across Hormazd's tweet that Mini will be launched in India in 2012 ! That's just an year ahead !

And yeah, a good write up. You are way too humble to mention you are not good in communication, but you did a good job!

Thanks again for the compliments, lol I did mention Mini in 2012 and I wont be surprised if the real source of Information was Team-Bhp! But also do not expect the Mini to be cheap like I said earlier,

Edit:: Hey, would you have some more info on whats in store with the new 3 series launch? Looks like a segment game changer from your words!

I will speak to you on the 3 at a later date, would not want to spoil all the fun at once but be rest assured it will the greatest ever car launch in the country

Regards,
S350L-E240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2011, 16:27   #8
BHPian
 
johnjacob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bangalore, INDIA
Posts: 344
Thanked: 24 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Isn't BMW going to launch a new Mini (mark 3) in 2013? If they launch the Mini here in India next year, won't that be the current Mini which 5+ years old is shortly due for replacement?
johnjacob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2011, 17:03   #9
Senior - BHPian
 
S350L-E240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: India
Posts: 1,416
Thanked: 373 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Well I do not exactly keep in touch with information about Mini as it personally does not fall into my kind of cars, but as far as I know the new Mini Cooper and its variants will make it's public debut at Paris Auto Show 2012,

And even if they launch the current Mini, it will sell and initially do not expect huge volumes as it will play a very niche crowd, but do know this it will hammer the Beetle completely out of the picture with BMW's aggressive entry,

Lots of cars have been in their final years with a car makers entry, but do remember they will be building the brand Mini step by step and with the cooper launch in due time expect the Countryman , Paceman etc as and when deemed necessary.

Lastly, please be ready to understand the Mini is going to be expensive do not have hopes on press articles trying to make claims of it being close to 16 lac or any such price.

Regards,

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjacob View Post
Isn't BMW going to launch a new Mini (mark 3) in 2013? If they launch the Mini here in India next year, won't that be the current Mini which 5+ years old is shortly due for replacement?
S350L-E240 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 14th September 2011, 18:10   #10
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kollam/Bangalore
Posts: 234
Thanked: 13 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Just came across Hormazd's tweet that Mini will be launched in India in 2012 ! That's just an year ahead !
yes, seems this is confirmed by BMW at Frankfurt Motor show today. some news from ACI here
RakishRam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th September 2011, 18:24   #11
BHPian
 
mohandasnikhil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 273
Thanked: 238 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Well I really think there is a market now for a Premium Small Car, i.e higher than the Jazz. In cities like Mumbai, where I live it is extremely frustrating if you have to drive luxo barge around town, and that is why most of the users are compelled to use the services of a driver, even though we love to drive.

I think the Mini or 1 Series is the perfect 2nd Car, that the housewife can use, and is also nice for the weekend drive for the car loving man.

I for one would be happy to use an Chauffer driven Innova, and get my wife a Mini.
mohandasnikhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th September 2011, 20:41   #12
Team-BHP Support
 
noopster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 8,665
Thanked: 9,197 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

A BMW at 16-18 lacs will certainly be a gamechanger. Though it may skip some of the "essentials" for a luxe car, the sheer brand value is beyond belief. Younger people may well opt for one as a "starter" luxe car over brands like Skoda, VW, Toyota, Chevy etc.
noopster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2011, 12:36   #13
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 189
Thanked: 131 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

I was reading about the Mini launch on Autocar and it seems that the CEO has announced that they will be aggressive with the price. This means that they will not do what VW and Fiat did with the Beetle and the 500. The Mini will be a CKD unlike the 500 and the Beetle which are CBUs. I also believe that the beetle and 500 existed in India not for numbers but for brand building. Mini cannot do that since they will be selling only one car here (the countryman, clubman etc are just variants more than anything else).


This means that the prices should be substantially lower than the other 2. Going by the pricing of the 320d (in the UK and India. we are around 10-15% higher) I would guess that the Mini Cooper with the 122bhp engine should be around 12.5 to 13 L ex showroom. That to me is a bit high. The countryman (which will be the bread and butter model) should be around 16-17L ex showroom.

I guess the sweet spot would be to put the Mini Cooper at around 9L and the Mini countryman One at around 12L.
HKap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2011, 13:33   #14
BHPian
 
nipunkul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 119
Thanked: 15 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

I think by aggressive they mean it will be the same segment it is in the west, unlike the fiat 500, which was sold 1 segment higher, since fiat thought, it was its own segment.

So the cooper auto which starts at GBP 16K, and would spec out at over 20K with all the bells and whistles is in the same range as Octy, Cruze, A-Class and Citroen C3. The countryman starts 500 pounds dearer. The fiat 500 on the other hand ends its range below 15K.

So the competition is with the Beetle and not the 500, and at 16L base price for the range would be OK. The 1-Series starts above the Mini, so this should hold in India as well. BMW want 3 series to be more accessible, so it will get crowded for them from 18 to 30L range, with Mini hatch, coupe, clubman, countryman, 116, 118, 120, 123, 1-coupe, 320, CE, X1 all in this range, so expect 1 car at every 1L difference by end-2012.
nipunkul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th September 2011, 21:30   #15
Senior - BHPian
 
S350L-E240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: India
Posts: 1,416
Thanked: 373 Times
Default Re: BMW India 2012 and premium small cars and perceptions!

Trust me everyone, stop being mislead by any calculations this (Mini) is going to be expensive,

It WILL be priced above 1 in India.
It WILL not be below 20 and expect the countryman to go a lot higher.

And please take this as a genuine guarantee and avoid speculations on this thread.

Regards,
S350L-E240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-bhp RadiantKarma The Indian Car Scene 115 27th August 2016 18:58
2013 Corruption Perceptions Index: World Rankings (India = 94) iVento Shifting gears 4 5th December 2013 17:34
The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions GTO The Indian Car Scene 356 4th January 2011 23:03
Skewed perceptions, biased, preconceived notions towards Hyundai cars.Why? mclaren1885 The Indian Car Scene 222 9th September 2009 13:20
Camera Phone Problem : People's perceptions lead to big trouble. aaggoswami Shifting gears 30 17th June 2009 06:32


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 10:58.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks