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Old 27th September 2011, 21:12   #1
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Default Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

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The Indian Army brigade facing the Chinese in north Sikkim has an unusual vehicle in its inventory: Mitsubishi Pajeros! The vehicles were specially procured after observing similar vehicles used by Chinese military personnel on their side of the border.

The fact is northern Sikkim is no picnic. Over a distance of 60-70 km, the height rises from 15,000 feet to 19,000 feet. (The Chinese have it comparatively easier, they reach the same heights but rising gradually over 140 km). It puts considerable strain on army personnel not to mention vehicles and equipment. And given the poor state of roads there, the wear and tear is steep. Therefore the rugged Pajero.

It didn't come easily. Apart from the army's stringent procurement procedures, the mandarins in the Finance Ministry were reported to have had many objections. Nevertheless the proposal went through for an undisclosed number of Pajeros and they are doing yeoman service.
Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim
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Old 27th September 2011, 21:45   #2
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

Are the Gypsys not rugged enough ? probably it does not give any creature comforts. a pajero costs 4-5times a gypsy.

what is the equipment list for these pajeros ?

Please do not see this comment as something that reflects my patriotism. I am as patriotic as anyone.
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Old 27th September 2011, 21:54   #3
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

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i dont know who or which babu advised indian govt not to build infrastructure in border areas with china, as the infrastructure build by india could be used by the chinese in an event of a war!!!!

now sikkim and other border areas suffer due to this short sightedness of babus in indian govt!

dumb as can be!

coming back to the topic....glad to know some better decisions are being taken to give brave indian soldiers better vehicles and equipment! (i know pajero is more than 10 year old vehicle and technology and HM must have made some sale)

Last edited by Parm : 27th September 2011 at 21:56.
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Old 27th September 2011, 22:20   #4
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

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Originally Posted by Parm View Post
i dont know who or which babu advised indian govt not to build infrastructure in border areas with china, as the infrastructure build by india could be used by the chinese in an event of a war!!!!

now sikkim and other border areas suffer due to this short sightedness of babus in indian govt!

dumb as can be!

coming back to the topic....glad to know some better decisions are being taken to give brave indian soldiers better vehicles and equipment! (i know pajero is more than 10 year old vehicle and technology and HM must have made some sale)

Pajero is more than 25 years old platform, also Hindustan Motors survives on the sales to the Government departments.
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Old 27th September 2011, 22:50   #5
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

It is time Govt procure LR Defenders from TATA for these regions.

Even Talibans with Toyota Hilux are better equipped.

Gypsy is for suicide missions. It may be capable but not ideal.

Last edited by aerohit : 27th September 2011 at 22:54.
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Old 27th September 2011, 22:54   #6
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

Wouldn't buying fortuners have been a better idea?
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Old 27th September 2011, 23:03   #7
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

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Originally Posted by Parm View Post
i dont know who or which babu advised indian govt not to build infrastructure in border areas with china, as the infrastructure build by india could be used by the chinese in an event of a war!!!!

now sikkim and other border areas suffer due to this short sightedness of babus in indian govt!

dumb as can be!
Off topic reply:
Why not contribute to governance if you feel you know better?

Its really an age old military doctrine.

Please read up on the Blitzkrieg by the German Wehrmacht in WW2 aided by French roads. Or the difficulties faced by the same army in Operation Barbarossa in eastern USSR where no roads existed.
Or for a more regional context, the Indo-Chinese 1962 War that we lost - that is, we accepted defeat because the Chinese were close to gaining access to the road system of West Bengal.

Note: I am only clarifying the direct reasoning behind the quoted policy.
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Old 27th September 2011, 23:08   #8
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

I was in Sikkim during 2005-2006 .The India- China border near Nathula is reachable via- Chango (Tsongmo) lake. I had been to the border and had seen some of the Indian Army's establishment over there.We shook hands with the Chinese soldiers who are just across the barbed wire fencing on the border here at Nathula with freezing conditions during winter. The Chinese troops were quite pleasant and cheerful in their demeanor though they could not follow English properly. It is a well known fact that the Chinese territory across the border have been developed with very good infrastructure. They are constantly improving and there is a rail connection not so very far from the border.
The roads on the Indian side have steep rock cuttings on hill slopes and face frequent landslides making them cut off even with some rockfall, that needs the BRO's help to clear off.
I have extensively used the Gypsy in Sikkim and found it to be the fittest MUV to reach most terrains. The only disadvantage is that its front seat occupants are cosy but the rear seat occupants are tossed up, down, fore and aft or sideways on uneven roads.
I am not sure about how they will use the Pajeros, which may have little advantage on the safety front and may seat all occupants more comfortably than the Gypsy or the Mahindra 550DP. Moreover Gangtok does not have a HM dealer (for maintenance) as there are almost no Ambassadors plying there. I believe Siliguri which is about 140 kms away, may have a small HM dealership.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 27th September 2011 at 23:10.
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Old 27th September 2011, 23:18   #9
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

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Originally Posted by SedatedDrive View Post
Or for a more regional context, the Indo-Chinese 1962 War that we lost - that is, we accepted defeat because the Chinese were close to gaining access to the road system of West Bengal.
OT: We did not accept defeat; Chinese unilaterally declared ceasefire.

On topic: Why Pajero? What advantages does it have over the present army vehicles, to justify 4 times the expenditure and the proportional maintenance cost?

Last edited by darklord : 27th September 2011 at 23:20.
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Old 27th September 2011, 23:34   #10
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

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Originally Posted by SedatedDrive View Post
Off topic reply:
Why not contribute to governance if you feel you know better?

Its really an age old military doctrine.

Please read up on the Blitzkrieg by the German Wehrmacht in WW2 aided by French roads. Or the difficulties faced by the same army in Operation Barbarossa in eastern USSR where no roads existed.
Or for a more regional context, the Indo-Chinese 1962 War that we lost - that is, we accepted defeat because the Chinese were close to gaining access to the road system of West Bengal.

Note: I am only clarifying the direct reasoning behind the quoted policy.

Sikkim earthquake: Chinese threat making Sikkim suffer

KOLKATA: Nearly a week after the September 18 earthquake in Sikkim, relief hasn't yet reached the interior areas of this tiny state. Reason: The state lacks infrastructure, particularly roads and airfields , which would have speeded up succour to the people of the state.

Advanced landing grounds and roads had not been developed as mandarins in Delhi feared such infrastructure would help the Chinese over-run the region in the event of a repetition of the 1962 border conflict.

The Air Force is still finding it difficult to move men and equipment to the worstaffected areas. Eastern Air Command sources said mobilization would have been faster had the IAF managed to land AN-32 or a similar large transport aircraft close to Mangan, Chungthang or Lachung.

"Delhi woke up from its slumber only recently to realize that infrastructure development is required in the northeast. This shift from its Pakistan-centric approach has led to development of facilities in Assam and Arunachal Pradesh. It may take some more time for infrastructure to be built in north or east Sikkim," said a state government source.

The Union defence ministry was able to successfully reason that Sikkim should be left underdeveloped for "strategic" purposes. The fear was if China were to carry out a lightning strike across the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in north Sikkim, it would be able to take the entire state by using the infrastructure built by the Union or the state government.

"The philosophy was that should such a strike take place and Indian forces be compelled to fall back, the Chinese should not get access to infrastructure that would help consolidate its position ," said the official.

"In reality, this was a ridiculous strategy. China is rapidly building infrastructure on the Tibet side and lack of infrastructure on our side won't deter them. It is a matter of concern that no ALGs exist in Sikkim," said another official.

The Army is now considering a Mountain Strike Corps and may station ultralight howitzers and light tanks along the LAC. Now, IAF might also consider ALGs in north and east Sikkim .


Sikkim earthquake: Chinese threat making Sikkim suffer - The Economic Times

MOD: sorry for going off topic, but i had a point to prove!

some of us people need to be made aware of realities!

Last edited by Parm : 27th September 2011 at 23:36.
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Old 28th September 2011, 00:26   #11
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

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Originally Posted by darklord View Post
OT: We did not accept defeat; Chinese unilaterally declared ceasefire.
Off topic: Unilateral ceasefire after occupying our lands.

It is a defeat that our Government of that day accepted when it decided it can not take back the areas occupied by the Chinese ever since. Not everyone in India has forgotten this humiliation.

As to the policy, let us face the fact: we do not exactly have a peace-loving-democratic-Norway on the other side of the border, which for that matter is not even agreed upon.

On topic: The earthquake is a natural calamity that has happened for the first time in Sikkim. There is no doubt we need to improve infrastructure for facing such calamities in future. But there are limits due to strategic reasons.

@darklord: No need to bold and underline. I am not reading impaired.
@Parm: Please do not quote news articles written by journalists who would only quote their sources as "another official". We also need to be aware that unlike in our country where even procuring Pajeros gets a keen eye from the public, in Maoist China secret policy decisions are made undisputed by a self-elected ruthless Politburo. Hence I ask you to extend the realities across the border to get the overall picture.
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Old 28th September 2011, 00:30   #12
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

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Originally Posted by darklord View Post
OT: We did not accept defeat; Chinese unilaterally declared ceasefire.
Being patriotic doesn't mean that we turn away from the facts. It is well known that the Chinese declared a unilateral ceasefire due to 2 reasons:
1. Their motive of making us aware of their military supremacy and mountain warfare was achieved.
2. International pressure and politics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklord View Post
On topic: Why Pajero? What advantages does it have over the present army vehicles, to justify 4 times the expenditure and the proportional maintenance cost?
IMO, no. As mentioned by a few others, the Gypsy, notwithstanding its discomfort to the rear passengers, is the best vehicle for our varied terrain especially in the hilly areas due to its short track, petrol engine, amazing reliability and most of all, the ready knowledge levels and inventory of spares that the army has.

Last edited by n.devdath : 28th September 2011 at 00:35.
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Old 28th September 2011, 07:44   #13
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

Quote:
Originally Posted by darklord View Post
OT: We did not accept defeat; Chinese unilaterally declared ceasefire.

On topic: Why Pajero? What advantages does it have over the present army vehicles, to justify 4 times the expenditure and the proportional maintenance cost?
Off topic. We did not accept defeat! Chinese unilaterally declared ceasefire. China still occupies Aksai Chin, northeastern part of Ladakh. The war achieved China's objective of securing it's borders in the western sector. Don't go by the word play of the diplomacy.

It doesn't matter if we accept it or not. The fact of the matter is we lost. Not to take anything away from the army, it was a political failure. The army had to do with what ever it was provided.
There is no doubt we need to improve infrastructure all across the eastern front but looks like the strategic reasoning is, if there is no infrastructure, the Chines cannot progress further.

On topic, I agree, Why Pajero? Yes, they wanted a good platform. Why not say, TFortuner (costs more or less the same, sells more across the country/globe as well and is based on Innova platform so spares won't be a issue). More over, Toyotas have proven to be the best technicals across the globe. The could have been rigged any way the army wanted or LRDefender (al right, we don't have the manufacturing set up yet) ? Our procurement process is always in question.

Last edited by AdityaLN : 28th September 2011 at 07:45.
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Old 28th September 2011, 10:03   #14
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

Its not just the terrain - its the extreme elevation - the terrain is about 15,000 ft increasing to about 17,000 ft in the north. The Gypsy with its relatively smaller displacement and normal aspirated petrol engine struggles at those elevations.
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Old 28th September 2011, 10:28   #15
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Default Re: Rugged Pajero for jawans posted in Sikkim

[quote=SedatedDrive;2522627]
@Parm: Please do not quote news articles written by journalists who would only quote their sources as "another official". We also need to be aware that unlike in our country where even procuring Pajeros gets a keen eye from the public, in Maoist China secret policy decisions are made undisputed by a self-elected ruthless Politburo. Hence I ask you to extend the realities across the border to get the overall picture.[/QUOTE]

Its really an age old military doctrine.

Please read up on the Blitzkrieg by the German Wehrmacht in WW2 aided by French roads. Or the difficulties faced by the same army in Operation Barbarossa in eastern USSR where no roads existed.

Or for a more regional context, the Indo-Chinese 1962 War that we lost - that is, we accepted defeat because the Chinese were close to gaining access to the road system of West Bengal.


if we go by your doctrine of not building the infrastructure on our side of the china border...

...i would like to ask you why now the govt is building the infrastructure? still it could be used by the invading chinese forces?

please answer....

coming back to the topic>> i think the pajeros must have been picked up at a very good price as HM is clearing the stock!

Last edited by Parm : 28th September 2011 at 10:31.
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