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Old 15th October 2011, 21:55   #76
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Great thread RadiantKarma.
Thanks for the kind words.

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And pretty interesting responses as well.
Absolutely. When I had put up the thread, I was kind of expecting straghtjacketed responses. I am happy that, true to the character of team-bhp, a lot of value addition has happened to the thread.

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Saw some views that the folks should comment only on the cars they own. It does have logic, but I tend to think differently. Being a part of this wonderful community, we kind of know the brands in offer, and quite a bit of pros and cons associated with each of the players. Afterall its these perceptions which will finally impact the buying decision.
I am of the same view as yours. At the same time, I am grateful to all the voices of dissent as they have clearly emphasized that these perceptions are, well, just perceptions, and one has to be judicious in applying the same for a buy decision.

Team-mates, let me take this opportunity to share my view that the idea of seeking reliability views only from owners, who have no awareness of how other brands stand w.r.t. reliability, may itself be fraught with unreliable results. Someone who has owned only one or two brands, and has no awareness about other brands in this regard, how is he going to know what reference to use to judge the level of reliability? Let me give an example.
I asked a friend some time ago how his car was doing and whether he had faced any quality issues. (I am not naming the brand to avoid controversy) He said that he had faced only a couple of problems- actually functional failures - with side indicator system and like. And one of the issues was yet to be resolved as AS&S did not have the spares. But overall, he was happy with the car as there had been no breakdown whatsoever. Now, the punchline is that his car was only 6 months old at that time! With all these problems so early on, he was still willing to give it a good certificate!
This is an extreme case, but it does point to the difficulty in obtaining reliable results from Yes/No type ownership responses. It actually requires detailed structured questionnaire and scientific evaluation of the responses. This would be beyond the scope of this community.

On the other hand, my personal view is that an alert and avid petrolhead (which an average bhpian is) often knows more, and in an unbiased manner, than even the owners on this aspect. An example is here
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Originally Posted by avisidhu View Post
Sat in an Altis which was being used as a cab in Bangkok (btw, I dont think any other car is even used as a cab over there). I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the odo. it had already run 7 lakh KMs!! And yet no rattles, sqeaks or any considerable wear and tear. You could easily compare it to a 40K run car in India.

That day I realised what the actual meaning of the word 'reliable' is
Does avisudhu need to own a Toyota and run it for 7L kms to know its reliability? (avisidhu, I hope you don't mind my sharing your post in this thread, as I felt it was quite relevant.)
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Old 15th October 2011, 22:51   #77
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

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Originally Posted by RadiantKarma View Post
On the other hand, my personal view is that an alert and avid petrolhead (which an average bhpian is) often knows more, and in an unbiased manner, than even the owners on this aspect. An example is here

Does avisudhu need to own a Toyota and run it for 7L kms to know its reliability? (avisidhu, I hope you don't mind my sharing your post in this thread, as I felt it was quite relevant.)
Ohh no not at all, in fact thanks for considering my post as an apt example But yes, that episode was an eye opener of sorts. I mean, bean reading for quite a while how a car that runs 2 lakh KMs without issues is mostly considered a good enough benchmark, but watching a vehicle present in such a good condition at 7L KMs was just shocking.

Didn't want to mention this earlier, but he was willing to adjust 7 fully grown adults in that single cab (and he did, please don't ask how, hehe) So I realised he wasn't finicky about maintaining the car in good shape or anything, and yet.......

And yes, your earlier point is absolutely valid too. The perception of reliability is quite relative. The lower segment Maruti's don't usually break down in the middle of the road, yet the rattles and squeaks are so prominent that I would hesitate to use Reliability and Maruti in the same sentence, for the simple reason that it spoils the driving experience for me. On the other hand someone else would be consider other factors significant and consider Maruti as a benchmark when it comes to reliability, and would be quite justified too.
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Old 15th October 2011, 23:36   #78
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

Among the brands I have owned, here is my experience list on reliability, best to worst.

Hyundai, Nissan
Honda
Ford
Maruti
Fiat

I have not made up my mind on our old (and sold) Amby, because it wont be an apple to apple comparison!

Last edited by dot : 15th October 2011 at 23:37.
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Old 16th October 2011, 00:47   #79
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

Would not like to comment on the brands not used by me. Ive owned quite a few and my inference and rankings are as below,

1) HONDA - Used a Honda City ZX GXi from Dec 2006 to Nov 2010, i would say the reliability was just fantastic. I have NEVER experienced a single mechanical fault in the entire 4 years and the 50000 km of use. The A.S.S. was ok, nothing exceptional nor too bad. Sold it only because of the high cost of petrol and also that I fell for the LINEA

2) MARUTI - Have used a M800, Omni and Esteem in the past. Currently using a Zen Estilo from Nov 2007. 49000 km done. Again no major mechanical issues. Just the usual body rattling and minor electrical problems from time to time. Chronic problem is the low FE of about 9 - 10 kmpl in Bombay with AC. The A.S.S. is ok, reliable and efficient mostly but reluctant to acknowledge faults and should i say they give a damn at times.

3) TATA - Have used 2 Indicas in the past, and im also using an Indigo Marina LX TDi from April 2006. Its done 90000km and still going strong The Marina has better reliability than the Indicas i used earlier, the first one (July 2002) had to have the entire gearbox replaced at 3000 km. Minor recurring problems like the weird gearshifts, the belt noise, uneven tyre wear etc are livable with, expecting a TATA vehicle. Post 75000 km the cluth wear is unbelievable, ive had the clutch / pressure plate replaced 3 times in 20000 km. TATA A.S.S is not that bad, nothing out of the world, acceptable. Special mention of Ambika Motors, Surat. Once on the NH 8 my indica that was under warranty got stuck in third gear. I drove 75 km in the third and just drove into the workshop unannounced. They took my car in, had it fixed FOC and i was out, in a matter of an hour, i think that was exceptional.

4) F-I-A-T - What do i say. It figures last in almost all the posts. But im sharing my first hand horror. I own a Nov 2010 Linea Mjd Emotion Pk. Done 28000 km so far (mostly done many a 2500km trips in 3 days on the lovely NH4). Dont get me wrong, i absolutely love my Linea. Its just beautiful, its build is bulletproof, once it gets going its a absolute dream to drive, the body control and high speed stability are fantastic, and ive never driven a car that has felt safer under high speed braking. All this with a consistent 17 - 18 kmpl is mind boggling. The only real downsides of the car are the low GC and sluggish city speed performance (diesel) and the huge truck like turning radius.

Whats not mind boggling is the reliability and the A.S.S. There have been hardly a few trips of more than a 1000 km after which i have not had to send my car to the workshop. Ive had a bent engine guard, wheel arch insides have given way, airbags have failed (error message), gear linkages have broken, my starter has conked off, the battery has failed, minor creaks and rattles started as early as 2000km, and it sips a litre of the very expensive synthetic engine oil every 2500 km.

Ive just got my car back after 11 Days yes you read it right 11 Days from the service center where the car was lying for want of a faulty starter. The A.S.S. people couldnt find a starter and had to ultimately lift one off the assembly line for replacement in my car. I had to literally shake up everyone from the MD of the service providing company to the Bombay service manager of TATA FIAT to the Western region service manager of TATA FIAT for the part to be replaced. In case i would hove not been so proactive my car would have still being lying in the service center.

I would like to mention here that TATA FIAT did provide me a loaner car (top end MANZA ELAN PETROL) from the 3rd day onwards. But the amount of travelling that we do the fuel price difference in 11 days came up to a whopping Rs 15000. They were even readily willing to acknowledge the problem. But i experienced a distinct partial treatment that the A.S.S of TATA FIAT have between the TATA cars and the FIAT cars.

I feel that more than just producing fantastic cars, FIAT should acclimatize their cars better for Indian conditions, have a company owned and company operated A.S.S. setup and ditch TATA, or else pack up and leave India.

Mitul.
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Old 16th October 2011, 14:19   #80
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

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Sir, with respect, I disagree with this. Look at the troubles faced by i20 owners. The steering, which is such a critical component in a car, rattles so horribly. For me, it started with less than 500 kms on the odometer. Its been nothing short of a nightmare trying to get my car rectified. Its keeps on recurring no matter what fix they try. To this day the rattle persists and Hyundai have all but given up on the issue. only temporary fixes are being done.Hyundai covers the issue till the car is under warranty and After warranty expires, I don't know what sort of horrible fate awaits me. The way I was treated by these great Hyundai wallahs is something else too and I don't think any manufacturer would go as low as calling genuine concerns of a customer to be madness.

Yes, hyundai used to make good cars when it first came to India but not anymore. The Accent that we owned was brilliant while the i20 we own now is the exact opposite. If I had to rate Hyundai, it would be at the bottom amongst all manufacturers!!!!!

I would totally agree with this. The only reason I got rid of the i10 was the poor service provided to me by Hyundai. I had the clutch replaced for no reason initially with the car having done only 6k. And under warranty. Post that the part was replaced another 5-6 times (under warranty) and they even tried fitting another gearbox to see if the judder with the card could be resolved.

Also, from what I have heard from the service guys from Hyundai service center is that the part life is also shorter. They told me that if I drive without clutch riding (which I do not and they agreed), then I could expect around 50k kms from the clutch. Also, the fan belt was also replaced around 40k kms.

In perspective, my Swift D is done 115k + kms without a change of the clutch. Also, my Baleno at close to 45k is going strong. So was my old Zen D (I had not changed the clutch till the time I sold it at 1.3 lac kms.)

Again, my experience, the guys at Maruti was more proactive, and tried to find problems than deny them. Maruti guys listened to you, and tried to really asses where the problem existed. Hyundai guys listened to me, and started providing me excuses on why the same was not a problem (and after a lot of talks, kind of agree that there is a problem).

In my opinion, the order is:

1. Maruti
2. Toyota
3. Honda
4. Tata - they at least try

And on the other end:

Hyundai
from what I have heard (perception) Skoda
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Old 16th October 2011, 15:08   #81
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

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I would totally agree with this. The only reason I got rid of the i10 was the poor service provided to me by Hyundai. I had the clutch replaced for no reason initially with the car having done only 6k. And under warranty. Post that the part was replaced another 5-6 times (under warranty) and they even tried fitting another gearbox to see if the judder with the card could be resolved.

Also, from what I have heard from the service guys from Hyundai service center is that the part life is also shorter. They told me that if I drive without clutch riding (which I do not and they agreed), then I could expect around 50k kms from the clutch. Also, the fan belt was also replaced around 40k kms.
These Hyundai wallahs are complete morons. No matter how much you try to convince them that the problems in the car are due to inherent issues, they will always try to put the blame on you and question your driving style. Even if you tell them that you have been driving cars for years and that your previous car never had such issues( i.e. driven by the same person & on the same roads), they will never agree.

Compared to the same experience with Maruti, the Swift ZXi which we owned, I just had to tell the Maruti guys that I am having X problem. They would, if needed, send 2-3 guys on a TD to check on the issue and sort it out. But with Hyundai, if you tell them you hear a rattle, they will blankly tell you in your face that they hear no rattle, even if you try your hardest to make them hear the rattle. Things had become so bad that I had to make videos of the issues to show it to them. How does one deal with such people from a so called "Reliable car company" ????

That's why I said earlier in the thread, if I had to rate Hyundai, it would be at the bottom amongst all manufacturers.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 16th October 2011 at 15:10.
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Old 16th October 2011, 22:43   #82
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

Over the last 17 years, have owned and driven quite a variety of cars and here goes by rating (this includes my experience in US as well):

a. Toyota
b. Maruti Suzuki
c. Nissan
d. Honda
e. Hyundai

Not rating others as it would be a hearsay. I would like to make one statement though: I would think that the quality of after sales service is part of the reliability business not just how durable the engine and its part are. Having said that my experience with Hyundai (I owned a Santro) is that when things are going good, no issues. But when an issues that is "zara hatke" then Hyundai gets into knots. Though the issue is old, one day when I was driving my Santro the A/C just died. The Hyundai guys just did not have a clue as to why it died. And the issue persisted for a good 6 months - they will repair it, the A/C will work for a week to four and then it would go 'kaput'. It went till a major change of part happened - unfortunately I do not remember the details as it happened about 4 years back. They key thing should any issue come up, how the after sales and the manufacturer respond is a part of the deal.
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Old 17th October 2011, 07:31   #83
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

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I would like to make one statement though: I would think that the quality of after sales service is part of the reliability business not just how durable the engine and its part are.
Good point there Aaren. Another point I noticed is that reliability and hassle-free ownership experience often gets associated with the no. of service centers available for a certain brand. My viewpoint is, if the car is reliable and does not warrant service center visit every other month, why do we need ASCs in every 2 kms? I will be happy to go with a brand which has one quality ASC in my vicinity, just to ensure that the support system is in place.
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Old 17th October 2011, 08:24   #84
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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Another point I noticed is that reliability and hassle-free ownership experience often gets associated with the no. of service centers available for a certain brand. My viewpoint is, if the car is reliable and does not warrant service center visit every other month, why do we need ASCs in every 2 kms?
Good point. Although going by that logic Maruti will turn out to be the most un-reliable brand with there advertisements of a service centre in the mountainous LEH/Ladakh .
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Old 17th October 2011, 11:00   #85
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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Good point there Aaren. Another point I noticed is that reliability and hassle-free ownership experience often gets associated with the no. of service centers available for a certain brand. My viewpoint is, if the car is reliable and does not warrant service center visit every other month, why do we need ASCs in every 2 kms? I will be happy to go with a brand which has one quality ASC in my vicinity, just to ensure that the support system is in place.
Now that's when we begin to forget that these are machines after all
Jokes aside, having a wide service network is a big plus, especially for people who travel outside cities frequently.

I travel to my hometown in the ANHC most weekends, and the nearest Honda service centre is 150 KM's away. Reliability is fine, but God forbid if something does go wrong due to any XYZ reason, I don't know what option I have, other than taking it to the next door mechanic and hoping for the best.
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Old 17th October 2011, 11:16   #86
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I have few cars including domestic and foreign makes the ranking is
Toyota Hilux
Bolero GLX export model
Ritz
Wagon R
Indica
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Old 17th October 2011, 12:30   #87
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Good point there Aaren. Another point I noticed is that reliability and hassle-free ownership experience often gets associated with the no. of service centers available for a certain brand. My viewpoint is, if the car is reliable and does not warrant service center visit every other month, why do we need ASCs in every 2 kms? I will be happy to go with a brand which has one quality ASC in my vicinity, just to ensure that the support system is in place.
Very valid point.

However, what I meant was not the quantity / number of Service centers but the quality of service that would be rendered and how your issue is addressed. This does not take away from the fact that there have to be certain number of service centers that would be a factor of the population and the size of the city / district.
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Old 17th October 2011, 16:54   #88
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Default Re: Reliability and hassle-free ownership: Perceptions of popular car brands on Team-

Among the companies you have mentioned, my list would go like this with 1 being the best & 12 being the worst:
  1. Toyota - although expensive, their A.S.S. is fantastic
  2. Maruti - do i need to explain?
  3. Honda - franky, I dont know how it is now
  4. Hyundai - decent service support
  5. Mahindra - reliable cars but average A.S.S.
  6. Nissan - as far as I have heard, reliable cars with decent support
  7. Chevrolet - good cars but poor A.S.S.
  8. Ford - same as above!
  9. Fiat - again good cars but pathetic A.S.S.
  10. VW - expensive cars & poor A.S.S.
  11. Skoda - same as above
  12. Tata - unreliable cars & poor A.S.S., what a combo!
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Old 19th October 2011, 10:59   #89
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To Mods : I think a poll would be nice.

Personally I feel these are top four

1. Toyota
2. Honda
3. Hyundai
4. Maruti
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Old 19th October 2011, 21:38   #90
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I will take the results with a pinch of salt,on this thread . I have been to FIAT / TATA & Maruti A>S>S and i will rate FIAT better than 2 others . Maruti no doubt is easily available everywhere but i feel success has gone on to their heads with their take it or leave it attitude

people at FIAT has taken care of mine car excellently so far , where i will stay neutral for TATA
totally agree, my experience as well with FIAT seem to be VERY good so far even better than my Maruti A.S.S experience. i don't understand why everybody keep pounding FIAT being the worst, i have never come across a FIAT with a fatal flaw such as others do. Anyway i would rate them atleast Neutral.
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