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Old 13th October 2011, 20:57   #61
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by RadiantKarma View Post

Going into the details of Etios - you get excellent driveability with negligible turbo lag, linear power delivery & good low-end torque, light and precise controls, spot-on ergonomics, short-turning radius, mature ride quality, composed handling, adequate ground clearance, seating comfort, superb space management all over including cubby holes & glove box, above-par fit & finish, good chassis, class-leading FE... In fact, there is hardly a design aspect that can be placed as a significant negative as far as functionality is concerned.

With such fundamentals and space on offer, if Etios was shod with upmarket clothing and a few knick-knacks, would it not be priced in the segment of Vento/Verna instead?!
Do you work as a copywriter for an ad agency whose client Toyota is? So many superlatives? You are really going to great lengths to prove that Etios is the best sedan there is in india right now. Why be so desperate? Unless you are a Toyota dealer or something. Lighten up. Toyota is a boring brand making utilitarian cars. Nothing exciting. In india, it's even worse. Walk into their showrooms and except Fortuner nothing looks good. You compare it with Verna/Vento? Heck, with all the superlatives you listed, you can compare it with even Accord/Beemers.
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Old 13th October 2011, 20:57   #62
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by hvs View Post
Quote of the day..!!!
Yup, I compared it to a scooter, but the damn thing has a 3 month waiting!!
And people are saying it flopped?
If we do not get the Liva, the waiting would be a significant factor.
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Old 13th October 2011, 21:00   #63
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Originally Posted by vb-san
That should have been the Vios, and with the brand recognition they have in India, it would have really worked in the C-segment (in both petrol and diesel).

I feel Toyota should have been better off in this segment if they got the Yaris and Vios to the Indian market instead of the Liva/Etios. It should have been a quality competition in B+ segment and C segment respectively. Instead they decided to get something India specific. Reason mentioned: Yaris is an expensive car, and is not meant for India. I still cannot digest that reasoning

Not sure about the Vios, but Yaris is one cute n quirky car which returns some real good mileage.

Toyota does not have a presence in the C segment. Etios/Liva is in the B/B+ segment and we all know where the petrol & diesel variants are heading ( Check this post in the New Car Deals thread).

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Originally Posted by Sahil
Toyota Etios Mid Model (G) from Madhuban toyota,Mumbai:
34k cash discount + free insurance + free kit toyota accessories kit 7000+ free sunfilm+ free double din music system worth 10k. On-road price approx 6 lakhs
Toyota needs to get the Yaris here to compete with the Jazz and Yaris sedan into the already crowded C segment. Honda, having nothing to lose (since they are handicapped without diesels) are getting ready with a sedan in the sub-City (B+) segment.
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Old 13th October 2011, 21:27   #64
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by ethanhunt123 View Post
XUV would not seat 7/8 in comfort and Aria is one segment above, so hardly competiton.
Aria does not seat 8 in comfort either. If you are more than 5 feet, last row is not for you. And the fit and finish is still not in the same league as Innova.
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Old 13th October 2011, 21:38   #65
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Originally Posted by drmohitg
Similarly all that talk of fortuner seeing a decline in its numbers doesn't make sense. The Aria too is loaded. Yeti is loaded. Hyundai Santa FE, Ford endy and Chevy captiva are all loaded with gadgets and many of these offer a much better driving pleasure, seating comfort then the fortuner. Best part being barring the Santa FE ( which also is pretty close) all the cars are cheaper then the Fortuner. Still they are not even matching fortuner numbers collectively. So what will the XUV do to shake things up for the TOFU? People buy the fortuner for its Busch looks which the XUV totally lacks. It looks horrendous and is being praised only after the price was announced. People buy the fortuner for the T badge which is something again Mahindra is not going to match ( Yes I am patriotic but also practical).

Last but not the least please don't mention water seepage issues and clutch failures in Etios and Liva. All the reports have been from outside sources and Mr munish who started this whole thing has never bothered to reply on TBHP even after becoming a member and repeated requests. So unless some member from the forum who owns any of these cars faces such an issue we cant attribute these to the cars. Till now all the members I have talked to have not had any of these so called issues.
+1 to that. I own an Etios and have not faced any issues till date. Being a DIY guy there were some niggles which I fixed myself. I am definitely more practical than being loyal to any brand/product (head over heart). Etios was a value product when it was introduced 6 months ago(Today it's like buying iPhone 2G at the iphone 4S price). But today with cars being launched left/right/center, it's plain overpriced and no longer VFM (the offers/discounts speak for themselves). Can you recollect any other Product for which Toyota gave any offers at all?

End of the day, this shows that the Indian market is maturing. The price discovery happenning in the products like City/Jazz/Fiesta/Fluence/Etios/Vento is very good for the customer. This will force the companies to stop charging huge premiums for their products (compared to their corresponding prices overseas) :-)
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Old 13th October 2011, 21:46   #66
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by andromeda View Post
End of the day, this shows that the Indian market is maturing. The price discovery happenning in the products like City/Jazz/Fiesta/Fluence/Etios/Vento is very good for the customer. This will force the companies to stop charging huge premiums for their products (compared to their corresponding prices overseas) :-)
Moral of the story:
Indians dont buy expensive junk anymore
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Old 13th October 2011, 22:33   #67
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by andromeda View Post
But today with cars being launched left/right/center, it's plain overpriced and no longer VFM (the offers/discounts speak for themselves). Can you recollect any other Product for which Toyota gave any offers at all?
This will force the companies to stop charging huge premiums for their products (compared to their corresponding prices overseas) :-)
+1. I totally agree that almost all Toyota offerings are way too much overpriced. Tell me about it. I just bought a 1.4L Altis diesel for 15+L. But what I meant by my previous post is that there cars are reliable and thats the reason people are ready to pay a premium unless they are offered something similar by some other company which matches Toyota's quality at a much lower price tag. Similar to the case of Vento and Verna launching diesel variant at a price lower then the Petrol run Honda forcing the latter to finally drop prices from those insane initial figures from all those years. I would love to buy a fortuner at less then 20L OTR .
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Old 13th October 2011, 23:02   #68
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Sorry to disagree here. Is Etios the real world of Toyota. IMHO, the real world of Toyota (outside India) comprises of cars like Yaris, Corolla, Camry, Fortuner etc. - quality and fuss-free products, which can go on and on.
Agree with your disagreement. Guess things got mixed up. The focus of my statement was not on Etios being real world of Toyota, but to emphasize the fact that Toyotas are more under the hood than over. Yes, they make reliable and fuss-free product, and with focus on function over form - which makes the car user-friendly. That's the real world of Toyota. If someone tries to find segment-leading style or features in a Toyota product, something better is always available at the price point. People have only seen high-end (for Indian market) products and expect similar premium interiors in a far cheaper car of Toyota. They ought to realize that Toyota's strength lies elsewhere. Of course, this is my impression of Toyota cars, and you may not agree. But I hope I have clarified.

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Agreed on the points, but I am surprised that safety features does not figure in the list above.
I was only elaborating the fundamentals of the car. And happy that you agree on the fundamentals part!

Quote:
That should have been the Vios, and with the brand recognition they have in India, it would have really worked in the C-segment (in both petrol and diesel).

I feel Toyota should have been better off in this segment if they got the Yaris and Vios to the Indian market instead of the Liva/Etios. It should have been a quality competition in B+ segment and C segment respectively. Instead they decided to get something India specific. Reason mentioned: Yaris is an expensive car, and is not meant for India. I still cannot digest that reasoning
Vios would have been priced higher. Toyota has made a conscious strategic call to enter mass market and hence, the efforts and investment to develop an India-focused product at a lower price point. Time will only be the true judge of this decision. They can still bring in Vios at a later stage, maybe in premium C segment?

Last edited by RadiantKarma : 13th October 2011 at 23:10.
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Old 13th October 2011, 23:10   #69
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Originally Posted by drmohitg

+1. I totally agree that almost all Toyota offerings are way too much overpriced. Tell me about it. I just bought a 1.4L Altis diesel for 15+L. But what I meant by my previous post is that there cars are reliable and thats the reason people are ready to pay a premium unless they are offered something similar by some other company which matches Toyota's quality at a much lower price tag. Similar to the case of Vento and Verna launching diesel variant at a price lower then the Petrol run Honda forcing the latter to finally drop prices from those insane initial figures from all those years. I would love to buy a fortuner at less then 20L OTR .
:-)
Some amount of credit should be given to the government as well. When the petrol prices shot up through the roof, Honda was caught with it's pants down. Other manufacturers bailed out since the could somehow get Diesels. The sleeping Honda did not have any option than to partially (it's still not 100% VFM yet) let go of its huge margins. All other hapless guys had to take a cut in their petrol car margins as well. Rest is history.

Would love to see other VFM products like XUV force other players to offer more value to their offerings. Time for Indians to stop getting ripped off just because the Yen rose against the $ by 10% this year :-)
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Old 14th October 2011, 03:57   #70
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

The thread title seems to indicate that the Etios/Liva were cars that should have shaken the market, but didn't. I don't think so at all.

These cars were meant to be budget offerings from a premium manufacturer. Now premium to Toyota means nothing goes wrong, but you don't get much to begin with.

In that respect, this is probably new territory for Toyota. Yes, they are trying to capitalise on their reputation with the "Q Class" ads, but why wouldn't they? Everyone attempts to capitalise on their strengths.

Are the Etios/Liva trouble-free? I don't own either, so I can't personally say, however based on the issues reported (Not counting the leaky doors or low FE): No.

Are they relatively trouble-free? Short answer: Yes.

Add to that the fear surrounding the purchase of a Tata, the ever escalating cost of Hyundais, and the looong waiting period of the Swift twins (diesels), I think the main competition (volume wise) has been taken care of.

All things considered, they're doing pretty well for themselves, though only Toyota can say whether sales are meeting their expectations. They are certainly selling in relatively high numbers for both segments, and I believe that can not be counted as a flop by any means.

OT: Personally, I wouldn't consider them for myself, and don't recommend them to anyone in my family - though I would to acquaintances, based on their priorities. And I would not drag the Altis into this discussion, because it is clearly in a different segment and the main issue with the Etios/Liva twins is their bare-bones, dull and weird interiors.
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Old 14th October 2011, 09:41   #71
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

Vid; 4 months waiting for Liva/Etios? Swift has 6-8 months!

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Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
The thread title seems to indicate that the Etios/Liva were cars that should have shaken the market, but didn't. I don't think so at all.

These cars were meant to be budget offerings from a premium manufacturer. Now premium to Toyota means nothing goes wrong, but you don't get much to begin with.

In that respect, this is probably new territory for Toyota. Yes, they are trying to capitalise on their reputation with the "Q Class" ads, but why wouldn't they? Everyone attempts to capitalise on their strengths.

New territory? We are talking about Toyota! not MM or Tata ! One wouldnt expect a guinea pig from Toyota! Not the right time or place.
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Old 14th October 2011, 11:16   #72
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Do you work as a copywriter for an ad agency whose client Toyota is? So many superlatives? You are really going to great lengths to prove that Etios is the best sedan there is in india right now. Why be so desperate? Unless you are a Toyota dealer or something. Lighten up.
Funny you say that. OTOH, let me offer my disclaimer first. Yeah, my views may be biased to the extent that I am a happy owner of Etios (P). Period. But I stand by what I have said. And if you ask me if the car is flawless. Far from it. But going by overall experience so far, positives far outweigh the negatives. At least for me. Touchwood! My joys and ecstasies and frustrations and letdowns of ownership are detailed in my thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ful-charm.html (Plain Jane Toyota Etios conquers the heart with her soulful charm!).

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Toyota is a boring brand making utilitarian cars. Nothing exciting. In india, it's even worse. Walk into their showrooms and except Fortuner nothing looks good.
You have your perception. Please do keep it up. I am just sharing my experience so that more petrolheads can look under the hood and beyond what is immediately visible - low style and refinement.

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You compare it with Verna/Vento? Heck, with all the superlatives you listed, you can compare it with even Accord/Beemers.
My apologies if my rant ticked you off. But I'd suggest, just check for yourself (take a long TD, go thru' official test drive reports) without bothering about my intentions (they could still be malafide, who knows?!) if those 'superlatives' are true. Since you value them so much, you might have just stumbled upon a great car for yourself!

Accord/Beemers you said?! Guess that was just sarcasm. I myself would be flabbergasted if some compared it with something like Corolla. Still sharing a few gems from people with better credentials than mine for the benefit of the community (from a different thread).

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Always insisted that the Etios (Petrol) is one heck of a drive! For 5.xx lakhs, it is surprisingly fun to drive. Torquey engine, light kerb weight, balanced handling and well controlled body roll. Forget the SX4, I'm putting my money on the Etios to even beat a Corolla Altis on the track. Shows that you don't need to spend too much money to have a whole lot of fun.
GTO's credentials include: Official test drive & reviews of Corolla Altis and Etios P

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
The SX4 is nowhere near as comfortable as the Etios. The Etios is even more comfortable than the Altis which costs twice as more.
Vid's credentials include: Owns a Corolla Altis and did official test drive & review of Etios D.

Do these justify at least some of my rant?
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Old 14th October 2011, 11:38   #73
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by RadiantKarma View Post
I am a happy owner of Etios (P). Period.
Do these justify at least some of my rant?
Yes, they do. At least better than someone who has never owned a Toyota and are still determined to dig it's grave based on 'just' their perception. It seems so surprising to me sometimes when somebody here compares a Toyota to an 'expensive junk'. I am sure that person has never owned a Toyota to justify his comment. I have owned cars from the Ambassadors, Fiats, Marutis, Daewoos, Hyundais, Hondas et al to the Toyota. And I am an Indian. And if Toyota is an 'expensive junk', I (as an Indian) will buy it over and over again for the value I have received over my 9 years of ownership.

The Etios twins may be slow starters, and they may have shortchanged on some 'non' essential features (interiors) which are easily customisable after-market, but they will give you a solid product in the essential's list, which will deliver more and more value in the long term. Period.

Last edited by dkaile : 14th October 2011 at 11:42.
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Old 14th October 2011, 12:14   #74
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by dkaile View Post
Yes, they do. At least better than someone who has never owned a Toyota and are still determined to dig it's grave based on 'just' their perception. It seems so surprising to me sometimes when somebody here compares a Toyota to an 'expensive junk'. I am sure that person has never owned a Toyota to justify his comment. I have owned cars from the Ambassadors, Fiats, Marutis, Daewoos, Hyundais, Hondas et al to the Toyota. And I am an Indian. And if Toyota is an 'expensive junk', I (as an Indian) will buy it over and over again for the value I have received over my 9 years of ownership.

The Etios twins may be slow starters, and they may have shortchanged on some 'non' essential features (interiors) which are easily customisable after-market, but they will give you a solid product in the essential's list, which will deliver more and more value in the long term. Period.

+1 to this. Every car has its positives and negatives. For Etios the positives are definetly the superb fundamentals discussed above. Shouldn't we being petrolheads appreciate the fundamentals more than anything else?
The negatives of Etios are definetly the missing 'bling' , cost cutting and some essentials like underbody coating/damping etc
As a first time new car buyer graduating from an Alto i am completely satisfied with my Etios (p) after 9K km.
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Old 14th October 2011, 12:16   #75
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

Looking back at subject - Toyota Diesel Twins didn't shake the market. Now, isn't that true? Agreed we need a longer duration to really conclude these, agreed that we have a waiting period for these, but with the sales data we have at hand these may not be flops, but these aren't market shakers either.

Forget how good or bad the product is? An owner will believe it was the best (and thus justify his/her decision to buy it). An owner of a rival car will believe it was not (and thus justify his/her decision to not go for it). The Toyota twins have their share of strengths and weaknesses? They are "assumed" to come with the famed Toyota reliability and this assumption is good for some, not enough for others.

All said and done, it is not "only" about how good/bad a product is, but how good/bad the product is perceived, and you do not need to own a vehicle to create a perception. Over a period of time, if these cars do demonstrate that they carry forward the "famed" Toyota reliability, then they may end up shaking the market, but given what little we have seen so far, I have my doubts.

The Qualis did shake its market segment, so did the Innova and the Fortuner. The Etios/Liva twins have not "yet" shaken the markets. May be they would in the future, but with so much competition around and people seeking "value" and not just "cost", it may not be so easy.
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