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Old 14th October 2011, 12:55   #76
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
What is up with all this hoopla around the XUV making the Innova and Fortuner look like stripped down variants, a loot by Toyota and predictions of XUV eating up the whole Indian automotive industry. Seriously??
drmohitg, the Fortuner but not the Innova does look like a rip off to me. It did before and with the XUV launch it has just been confirmed.

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
If it was that easy for any car with just added gadgets and a decent price tag then The hyundai cars would have till now cannibalized all of the Indian car industry.
I dont think thats is a correct way to describe things. In the context of the conversation, XUV does not just offer more gadgets compared to Fortuner at a much lower price. It is a MUCH BETTER vehicle too.

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Similarly all that talk of fortuner seeing a decline in its numbers doesn't make sense. The Aria too is loaded. Yeti is loaded. Hyundai Santa FE, Ford endy and Chevy captiva are all loaded with gadgets and many of these offer a much better driving pleasure, seating comfort then the fortuner. Best part being barring the Santa FE ( which also is pretty close) all the cars are cheaper then the Fortuner. Still they are not even matching fortuner numbers collectively. So what will the XUV do to shake things up for the TOFU?
XUV is very different from all the other vehicles mentioned by you (Aria, Captiva, Endeavour, Santa FE). All the others either matched or didn't match Fortuner's performance at a cheaper price or bettered it by being equally expensive.

Now here is an offering (XUV) which out performs, out handles,
out rides () , out brakes the Fortuner and in the passing also offers way more features and by the way costs about Rs 8 lakh less. Now thats turning the tables on Fortuner.

Also please don't forget if Innova is selling at 4k every month to establish Toyota's name as a reliable manufacturer. So is Mahindra selling Scorpio at a similar rate every month. That should also point to the presence of reliable products being offered by Mahindra.
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Old 14th October 2011, 13:23   #77
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
The thread title seems to indicate that the Etios/Liva were cars that should have shaken the market, but didn't. I don't think so at all.

These cars were meant to be budget offerings from a premium manufacturer. Now premium to Toyota means nothing goes wrong, but you don't get much to begin with.

In that respect, this is probably new territory for Toyota. Yes, they are trying to capitalise on their reputation with the "Q Class" ads, but why wouldn't they? Everyone attempts to capitalise on their strengths.

Are the Etios/Liva trouble-free? I don't own either, so I can't personally say, however based on the issues reported (Not counting the leaky doors or low FE): No.

Are they relatively trouble-free? Short answer: Yes.

Add to that the fear surrounding the purchase of a Tata, the ever escalating cost of Hyundais, and the looong waiting period of the Swift twins (diesels), I think the main competition (volume wise) has been taken care of.

All things considered, they're doing pretty well for themselves, though only Toyota can say whether sales are meeting their expectations. They are certainly selling in relatively high numbers for both segments, and I believe that can not be counted as a flop by any means.

OT: Personally, I wouldn't consider them for myself, and don't recommend them to anyone in my family - though I would to acquaintances, based on their priorities. And I would not drag the Altis into this discussion, because it is clearly in a different segment and the main issue with the Etios/Liva twins is their bare-bones, dull and weird interiors.

You are partly right about how the Toyotas products work. More reliability than bling and whistles and etc. The Vios and Yaris also are entry level products sold in other markets. They look acceptable and are priced slightly above VFM. Their pricing for the diesel isnt exactly VFM for how the product looks.


The biggest let down for the etios has been the way the dashboard has been designed. Please dont tell me that function over form is what it is all about . Also, please do not tell me that engineering and costs were factors to go for that odd looking dashboard. The Vios and the yaris have central consoles where speedometer/instrument cluster is placed and looks quite good. Please check the image and decide for yourself how the toyota engineers got it wrong. Better air flow and all that gimmick will not make it look better. It looks ugly. Period.


This alone would have done wonders to the car in my humble opinion and I would have considered it as a potential car myself and so would others.

The Etios rear also looks poorly designed. At this point in time with so much advances in manufacturing and designing softwares, such ugly rears are simply not acceptable.

As for the title of the thread, They havent shaken up anything yet for sure. They havent flopped either. I would say they will do decent numbers but will not top the sales charts for sure with all the competition.
I sincerely hope they change the dashboard design in their facelift.

Hyundai is the only manufacturer who has caught the pulse of the indian consumer well and it reflects in their products. Just check the new elantra and the sonata which are yet to be launched.
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Old 14th October 2011, 13:37   #78
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
drmohitg, the Fortuner but not the Innova does look like a rip off to me. It did before and with the XUV launch it has just been confirmed.
All Toyota cars are overpriced. What makes you feel the Innova is VFM? Its way overpriced according to me. Infact it has certain very very basic features missing from it even today which cars costing half its price have. They give some features only in the high end V model like Auto folding mirrors and stuff and make it look like a luxury when these have become basic features in Todays Indian car market.
So I am never going to say that Toyota cars are VFM. They are expensive for what they offer but we are forced to buy them because of lack of other options.

Even now after the official review is out, I can't consider the XUV over the Innova. We bought it for its space.


Quote:
I dont think thats is a correct way to describe things. In the context of the conversation, XUV does not just offer more gadgets compared to Fortuner at a much lower price. It is a MUCH BETTER vehicle too.
Agreed. But don't you feel that the people who buy the fortuner today, buy it for its image in our society ( atleast the majority of buyers). As a member put it earlier and it was the best way to describe this that majority of the Fortuners on our roads do "Mall roading" rather then "off-roading". Now with this in mind we can safely list out the reasons why the Tofu sells:
1. Looks.
2. Size.
3. T badge
4. Perceived Image.
5. Decent space
Leaving out the T badge I don't see XUV can match the Tofu on any of the other parameters.

For example I have seen so many of my Dad's colleagues ( people who have the money and possess only average car knowledge) go buy the Verna for its perceived brand image and hence the society image. All of them are chauffeured and when I ask them why didn't they consider a Etios/Manza/Logan they have no answer other then these cars being cheap cars. What I am trying to say is a bulk of Fortuner sales happen due to the increasing Vitamin M that people have. 5 years back I hardly used to see SUV's on our roads. Cars like tuscon and Terracan failed to impress. Now suddenly there is a hoard in every household to get an SUV standing in there garage even if they have no use for it.


Quote:
Now here is an offering (XUV) which out performs, out handles,
out rides () , out brakes the Fortuner and in the passing also offers way more features and by the way costs about Rs 8 lakh less. Now thats turning the tables on Fortuner.
Lets see how things go. A major concern is the electricals. I have never owned a mahindra car so cant comment. But yes mate I will be more then happy if the XUV forces the Toyota to reduce prices on the Fortuner and Innova.

Quote:
Also please don't forget if Innova is selling at 4k every month to establish Toyota's name as a reliable manufacturer. So is Mahindra selling Scorpio at a similar rate every month. That should also point to the presence of reliable products being offered by Mahindra.
Come on! The number of cars sold is governed by so many factors. Scorpio is way more cheaper then the Innova. It looks much more rugged and SUVish. So many or rather anyone wanting a SUV in 10L price bracket will take his pick between Scorpio and Safari rather then Innova which has a different USP all together. Infact thats why I said before that according to me XUV will eat more into the market share of Scorpio and
Safari rather then the Innova.
That way Tata sells so many Indicas/Indigo/Manza each month. Still we are very critical of there long term reliability.

Last edited by drmohitg : 14th October 2011 at 13:45.
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Old 14th October 2011, 14:14   #79
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
All Toyota cars are overpriced. What makes you feel the Innova is VFM? Its way overpriced according to me.
Beg your pardon, but I meant to be condescending towards T-Fort when I labeled it a rip-off. While I don't use that gesture against against Innova, it in no way absolves the Innova from being over priced, in my books (also yours).

I agree when you say : They are expensive for what they offer but we are forced to buy them because of lack of other options. Unfortunately for Toyota we are staring to get options which offer what Toyota has to offer and then they give some more.

(But disagree when you say most Fortuner owners buy the product for its image. That I think is a minority view, and could be disgraceful for some. For e.g I own a Safari for 3 years and 1 lac kms. I need to look for a modern SUV (not for mall going purposes, but because of my real life requirements) for myself. To be true until the XUV, I had no other choice but to look at Fortuner for an upgrade, because buying a new Safari/Scorp was too old world now. But Fortuner was not priced sanely. Enters XUV and I have all I wanted (except for gadgets - which I don't need) at almost half the price!)

Coming back to the topic of why Toyota's recent launches couldn't stir up the market in the old fashioned Toyota way, I thinks its because they were launched in a segment where users already had enough choices, and these choices had those attributes that Toyota products charge a premium for.
And while at it, Toyota decided to nullify its over- price disadvantage by squinting on interior quality. Which is among the first thing that a prospective buyer interacts/feels/looks at when he starts evaluating his options.
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Old 14th October 2011, 14:32   #80
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
Unfortunately for Toyota we are staring to get options which offer what Toyota has to offer and then they give some more.
ofcourse. Its so good to see so many cars today to choose from. That is the reason that even though the Altis is its segment leader, it no way runs away with the crown but just manages to sneak slightly ahead.

Quote:
But disagree when you say most Fortuner owners buy the product for its image. That I think is a minority view, and could be disgraceful for some. For e.g I own a Safari for 3 years and 1 lac kms. I need to look for a modern SUV (not for mall going purposes, but because of my real life requirements) for myself. To be true until the XUV, I had no other choice but to look at Fortuner for an upgrade, because buying a new Safari/Scorp was too old world now. But Fortuner was not priced sanely. Enters XUV and I have all I wanted (except for gadgets - which I don't need) at almost half the price!
Why is it disgraceful? I didn't understand you there. Although my apologies first. Now without sounding disgraceful please tell me how is it a minority view? Do you really think that even 50% of the Fortuner owners go off-roading? And by off-roading I mean off-roading! Not knocking up numbers on the highways, however good or bad they are. I am pretty sure ( although there is no data available) that not more then 5% of the Fortuner owners go off-roading with it and need the 4 into 4 capabilities.


Quote:
And while at it, Toyota decided to nullify its over- price disadvantage by squinting on interior quality. Which is among the first thing that a prospective buyer interacts/feels/looks at when he starts evaluating his options
.
+1.
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Old 14th October 2011, 17:01   #81
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
They give some features only in the high end V model like Auto folding mirrors and stuff and make it look like a luxury when these have become basic features in Todays Indian car market.
So I am never going to say that Toyota cars are VFM.
Infact even Innova V does not have power folding mirrors. They have only electrically adjustable mirrors.
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Old 14th October 2011, 17:15   #82
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Infact even Innova V does not have power folding mirrors. They have only electrically adjustable mirrors.
Oh my bad. Things like this just make me want to . I can't imagine how much profit Toyota must be making with each car sold. In that regard I really appreciate the launches of Aria, XUV and the Yeti. The upcoming Merlin will just add to the increasing list of options a customer will have. It will surely not be long enough for Toyota to go the Honda way and reduce prices or add some features.
Another big miss on the Innova IIRC is the back seat arm rest. For a car that is increasingly used to long journeys a hand rest is such a blessing.

I hope with the new Innova they correct some if not all of these shortcomings.
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Old 14th October 2011, 17:42   #83
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Oh my bad. Things like this just make me want to . I can't imagine how much profit Toyota must be making with each car sold. In that regard I really appreciate the launches of Aria, XUV and the Yeti. The upcoming Merlin will just add to the increasing list of options a customer will have. It will surely not be long enough for Toyota to go the Honda way and reduce prices or add some features.
Another big miss on the Innova IIRC is the back seat arm rest. For a car that is increasingly used to long journeys a hand rest is such a blessing.

I hope with the new Innova they correct some if not all of these shortcomings.
I very much agree with your points drmohitg. Toyotas may be VFM elsewhere but here in India they are overpriced for what they offer. We always keep banging about Toyota's reliability but how many cars of other manufacturers do we see broken down on the highway? Paying a premium for the so called "T badge reliability' doesn't hold water in my books.

Speaking about reliability, my Swift VDi hasn't broken down even once in its 3 year 55000 kms life and this car has seen all terrains and all weathers. I'm speaking for every other manufacturer out there. For the quality of materials Toyota has used on the Etios, "reliability" will be no more in Toyota's dictionary.

For Pete's sake Innova doesn't even have a roof-top antenna. It still has a pull-out antenna like the Amby's of the 60's.

In case Toyota is reading this: India is not your dumpyard for your below par quality products. Wake up!
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Old 14th October 2011, 17:55   #84
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post
For Pete's sake Innova doesn't even have a roof-top antenna. It still has a pull-out antenna like the Amby's of the 60's.

In case Toyota is reading this: India is not your dumpyard for your below par quality products. Wake up!
Thats an other very big omission you have pointed out. In fact it will be interesting to compile a list of cars currently on sale which have a pull out antennae. The best part is these are features which cannot be called luxury. These are fast becoming standard on even cars costing 3-4L.

What I mean by Toyota reliability is the way they have packaged the whole thing. Trust me my Innova has seen many many bad roads, all the time loaded to the brim and best of all gone through various hands since people keep borrowing it and my dad obliges. But even after 80k kms there is not a single rattle, or any premature part failure. Absolutely none. Thats what I like about it. Reliability is not about breaking down in the middle of the road. That way I guess barring Skoda () almost all modern cars very rarely desert you.

And that is the reason we were convinced to go for our second Toyota and bought the Altis even though once again feature wise comparison with its segment makes me look like a fool maybe to many for having bought it. For 15.4 L I don't get leather seats, fogs, HID/Xenons, cruise control, autmatic headlamp leveller, automatic D&N mirror, ESP, Hill descent control and the list just goes on. But then all I needed from this car was to sit my dad in comfort, return good FE and stay as good as new for as many years as we keep it and I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Last edited by drmohitg : 14th October 2011 at 17:58.
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Old 14th October 2011, 18:11   #85
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Oh my bad. Things like this just make me want to . I can't imagine how much profit Toyota must be making with each car sold.
No, I'm not laughing at your agony. This actually reminds me of a discussion I had with my BIL who's in US. He is completely sold out on Toyota because of, apart from reliability, the user-friendly nature of the cars they offer and has found mobiilty with several Toyotas/Lexus over the years.

Discussion veered to the perceived stinginess of Toyota in providing good interiors or reasonable level of equipment and we agreed that they must be making obscene amounts of profits out of their thoughfulness in making, whatever little they provide, rather user-friendly. He said half-jokingly "I know they milk me of my hard-earned money, but I love the way they do it!" I couldn't help smiling, agreeably!

Not everybody finds it amusing though. And this is good for the market!

Last edited by RadiantKarma : 14th October 2011 at 18:12.
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Old 14th October 2011, 18:58   #86
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

Sat in an Altis which was being used as a cab in Bangkok (btw, I dont think any other car is even used as a cab over there). I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the odo. it had already run 7 lakh KMs!! And yet no rattles, sqeaks or any considerable wear and tear. You could easily compare it to a 40K run car in India.

That day I realised what the actual meaning of the word 'reliable' is
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Old 14th October 2011, 19:09   #87
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by avisidhu View Post
Sat in an Altis which was being used as a cab in Bangkok (btw, I dont think any other car is even used as a cab over there). I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the odo. it had already run 7 lakh KMs!! And yet no rattles, sqeaks or any considerable wear and tear. You could easily compare it to a 40K run car in India.

That day I realised what the actual meaning of the word 'reliable' is
This is exactly what I have been saying all along. Toyota cars are build to last you a lifetime. In contrast read the following take directly from TBHP official review of the XUV and draw your own conclusions:
Quote:
Apart from the above, the worrying areas for Mahindra were already showing up on our test vehicle. Even on our test car, the electronics were acting funny from time to time. Once, after switching the ESP off, we couldn’t figure out how to switch it back on. Ditto for the hill descent control. On another occasion, the rear air-con button refused to activate air-conditioning at the back. Strangely, after a while (that included engine switch off and restart), these controls were back to normal. Mahindra better sort these things out ASAP, remember how Scorpio VLX owners always complain of their sensors going bust? Another typical Mahindra weakness is that our 1,000 kms run XUV5OO was already making squeaks and creaks from the tail-gate and rear door area. The sounds weren’t audible when I was sitting on the front seats, but they were prominent on the middle row, and really loud on the third row. This is not something that will go down easily with the 15 lakh rupee customer I spoke of earlier.
So in this regard once ( and IF) the Etios/Liva twins prove to continue having true Toyota genes then people will start ignoring the Interiors. The fundamentals of the car should be in the right place and everything else is only secondary.

Last edited by drmohitg : 14th October 2011 at 19:11.
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Old 14th October 2011, 19:16   #88
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

I dont think it is too early to judge the etios and the Liva. The petrol versions are already being sold with some offers, free insurance etc. H/ever I dont think the diesels will get in to that slot as yet. But the poor performance of the petrols will affect the diesel too in the long term with factors like re-sale value etc kicking in.
Toyota has claimed to have spent quite a bit of money in developing the etios and the liva. To sustain the money spent, these cars should last atleast 5 years { with minor face lifts, changes thrown at regular intervals before a complete new platform comes in}, so do any of you think that these cars are going to look appealing say in 2015? Even the dzire launched in 2008 is due for an upgrade next year on the newer swift's platform, which is just about 4 year cycle, in spite of being a segment topper.
Just look at the cars being launched today-Brio, the new swift, sunny--they all look good enough for the next 4-5 years.
Anyways, I think the sales numbers will speak for itself in the coming months. And when the sunny diesel is launched, I'm sure the etios will take the biggest hit, cause its USP is space and the sunny seems to be much better in that front.
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Old 14th October 2011, 19:38   #89
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Originally Posted by motorworks
I dont think it is too early to judge the etios and the Liva. The petrol versions are already being sole with some offers, free insurance etc. H/ever I dont think the diesels will get in to that slot as yet. But the poor performance of the petrols will affect the diesel too in the long term with factors like re-sale value etc kicking in.
Toyota has claimed to have spent quite a bit of money in developing the etios and the liva. To sustain the money spent, these cars should last atleast 5 years { with minor face lifts, changes thrown at regular intervals before a complete new platform comes in}, so do any of you think that these cars are going to look appealing say in 2015? Even the dzire launched in 2008 is due for an upgrade next year on the newer swift's platform, which is just about 4 year cycle, in spite of being a segment topper.
Just look at the cars being launched today-Brio, the new swift, sunny--they all look good enough for the next 4-5 years.
Anyways, I think the sales numbers will speak for itself in the coming months. And when the sunny diesel is launched, I'm sure the etios will take the biggest hit, cause its USP is space and the sunny seems to be much better in that front.
There are different interrelating factors here.

Reliability - Not many would argue about Toyota reliability in India and overseas. But Etios is a ' Made for India' as per Toyota and hence there is no history to judge it. I'm not saying it's any less reliable than other Toyotas, but we just do not have the historical data from anywhere to back it up.

There was an earlier post saying Toyota has not compromised with the core (Engine, Drivetrain, etc.). I'm sure most of you agree that the present Etios owners bought it with believing this is the case.

VFM - This one is tricky. Is it VFM as on today? The free market decides. In any case Toyota needs to keep selling Etios to make sure it's the 'Reliability' aspect is confirmed/proven on-road (may take 2-3 years for the broader market to accept it and buy one). To keep selling, Toyota will need to keep adding 'value' to Etios. Petrol prices are only hastening this process. End of the day, customer WILL (not yet) be the king !!

Last edited by andromeda : 14th October 2011 at 19:45.
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Old 14th October 2011, 19:46   #90
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by motorworks View Post
Just look at the cars being launched today-Brio, the new swift, sunny--they all look good enough for the next 4-5 years.
The swift is hardly a upgrade. Its practically the same car even though maruti wants us to believe they have used everything new. But to a customers eye its so hard to tell if the car you are looking at is the old swift or the new swfit.

The sunny too has its own shares of troubles. Most important being the relatively cramped head room at the back, very few dealerships and unknown servicing costs. Plus the diesel Sunny going by the current pricing will easily overlap with the likes of C segment cars which is a whole different ball game.
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