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Old 14th October 2011, 20:28   #91
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by muni View Post
Hyundai is the only manufacturer who has caught the pulse of the indian consumer well and it reflects in their products.
Is it? Really? That's a new knowledge.

Do you think Indian consumer thinks about style, features and quality only? What about mileage, service cost, highway stability, and well-put-out basic machine?
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Old 14th October 2011, 20:48   #92
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
Is it? Really? That's a new knowledge.
Do you think Indian consumer thinks about style, features and quality only? What about mileage, service cost, highway stability, and well-put-out basic machine?
You are free to take it as knowledge or opinion or a point of view.

There is something called as aesthetics and visual appeal also which to an extent ups all the factors that you mentioned. You don't want an ugly looking machine with all attributes do you. In this case the interior looks and feel are at fault that is it.

To me, Toyota messed up the interior look and feel. Am pretty sure this is one of the main reasons why it is not doing amazing numbers. The segment in which it is competing has products which offer better value.

I have driven the diesel Liva and liked it for all the attributes you mentioned except for the interiors and to an extent the Price. I will not buy it.
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Old 14th October 2011, 23:12   #93
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

Both liva and etios are overpriced in my opinion for what it offers. They are by no means cheap options. Only if toyota had provided better interiors and good insulation, it could have been a game changer in their respective segments for toyota.
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Old 15th October 2011, 12:54   #94
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

Though the discussion is about Toyota diesels but I can't help dragging in petrol avatar of Etios siblings.

I just saw on Facebook page of Etios and a guy is saying there that a guy in Mumbai is getting 34k cash discount + free insurance + 17k worth of freebies for Etios petrol. Totals around 70k

Is Etios that terribly flop? It also makes me thankful that I cancelled my Etios! It would be impossible for me to live if I bought Etios and only one month later 70k discount was offered on it!

And, when I scroll down on their page, I see same old problems being discussed which I saw for three months when I was in hunt for a new car, 8-9kpl mileage in city, intolerable noise & vibration and lack of customer support. The rain water seepage problems are no more discussed (since rain season is gone).
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Old 15th October 2011, 13:04   #95
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

Aren't most petrol cars running discounts? I think its more because of the sudden increases in Petrol prices and the market shifting towards diesel. Anyways 70k sounds like a lot and I am not sure that such large discounts exist. The guy might be getting a old car or something, you never know.

But this makes me want to ask the age old question again although its off-topic. How much time before the govt is forced to increase the diesel prices? Everyone today wants only and only a diesel car regardless of there running.
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Old 15th October 2011, 13:59   #96
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

I strongly believe Toyota goofed up by looking to address a segment it did not need to. Toyota is strong enough a brand to have slugged it out against the Verna/City/Vento etc with the Yaris/Vios. People have high expectations from the T Brand. The expectations is that Toyota would fight it out in the 8-11L segment. The Yaris would have been an aspirational car for many, including me. I doubt if the Etios can be fill that expectation.

The Etios reminds me as a replacement of the good old Esteem. Imagine if MSIL relaunches Esteem now? It will be a limited success at best. Fact remains that the Etios twins have not done what Figo did for Ford or what the i20/Verna did for Hyundai.

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Old 15th October 2011, 15:03   #97
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsCry View Post
Though the discussion is about Toyota diesels but I can't help dragging in petrol avatar of Etios siblings.

I just saw on Facebook page of Etios and a guy is saying there that a guy in Mumbai is getting 34k cash discount + free insurance + 17k worth of freebies for Etios petrol. Totals around 70k

Is Etios that terribly flop? It also makes me thankful that I cancelled my Etios! It would be impossible for me to live if I bought Etios and only one month later 70k discount was offered on it!

And, when I scroll down on their page, I see same old problems being discussed which I saw for three months when I was in hunt for a new car, 8-9kpl mileage in city, intolerable noise & vibration and lack of customer support. The rain water seepage problems are no more discussed (since rain season is gone).
If the best seller - Alto can give discounts, why not a new comer?

Discounts have become just another sales gimmick. Increase the Ex-Showroom price and then give discounts, hoping that the customer is fooled.

The only problem with discounts is that the other items - road tax, insurance etc are tied to the ex-showroom price and you end up paying more even if there is a hefty discount.

Back to the topic. With the present craze for diesels, I do not think that Toyota will have a "Flop" in its hands. Unless the public perceives it
a bad bargain, they will sell in decent numbers, at least much better than Fiat, Ford and others competing in this segment. Whether they can overtake i20 or Swift remains to be seen.
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Old 15th October 2011, 15:24   #98
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by motorworks View Post
With all its global presence and r & d, all they could manage was a liva / etios at this price? If some other manufacturer like maruti had come out with such products, people would have slammed it straight away and we wouldnt even have received some positive feedback that we have got till date.
Toyota sells budget sedans and hatchbacks in the rest of the world, but in India they are at a price war with other manufacturers in India. If you look at their business model, they are bound to their suppliers so cannot switch between suppliers to find lower prices for parts like their American counterparts do. That places a pretty hard limit on their price-cutting abilities and had to work around it.

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Originally Posted by gomzi View Post
I'm not sure why Toyota even bothered to make 2 "new" cars for India when they already had the Yaris sedan and Hatchback that they could have launched. I'm seeing a lot of hatchbacks and compact cars on the road and a lot of them are the Yaris siblings along with Nissan Sentras.
Introducing the Yaris in India would mean selling a hatchback or a compact sedan for a price much higher than Toyota's Indian competitors therefore Etios was the way to go. Granted, there's the R&D costs that they could have saved on but in the long run, coming up with something they could sell at the same price or for cheaper than Maruti, Ford, or Tata was one of the things they sought out.

Besides, the boot of the Yaris sedan looks like it was added on as an after-thought, as the common opinion is about the Swift DZire.


BTW, out of curiosity, does anyone know of a sedan that was chopped to make a hatchback and has that 'sliced-off' look as an artifact in the design of a hatchback (i.e. the opposite of a boot added to a hatchback)?
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Old 15th October 2011, 17:39   #99
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

IMO, Toyota made a bad judgement by launching the diesel version later. By the time the diesel version was launched, the Petrol had already built up a reputation as a cheaply built, leaky fuel guzzler. If the diesel model had been launched earlier, Toyota would have found customers who were willing to live with the not-so-good stuff for the economy.

And once Toyota's reputation for solid build was gone for a toss, there was no appeal to it when much more modern cars with better build were available at competitive prices. In short, they forgot that it was the quality that the brand promised, and not the brand itself, that sold cars.

Not to mention, people would rather be seen in an expensive Maruti than a cheap Toyota.
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Old 15th October 2011, 17:46   #100
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
Is it? Really? That's a new knowledge.

Do you think Indian consumer thinks about style, features and quality only? What about mileage, service cost, highway stability, and well-put-out basic machine?
I will add to this... What about space for passengers? The Santro is more spacious and confortable that the FLUIDIC Verna. AT least my head does not brush against the roof (rear seat) in Santro as in the verna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muni View Post
You are free to take it as knowledge or opinion or a point of view.
To me, Toyota messed up the interior look and feel. Am pretty sure this is one of the main reasons why it is not doing amazing numbers. The segment in which it is competing has products which offer better value.

I have driven the diesel Liva and liked it for all the attributes you mentioned except for the interiors and to an extent the Price. I will not buy it.
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Originally Posted by manasmadaan View Post
Both liva and etios are overpriced in my opinion for what it offers. They are by no means cheap options. Only if toyota had provided better interiors and good insulation, it could have been a game changer in their respective segments for toyota.
At the price point, there are several other better equipped examples. However, if they wish, they could just change the dashboard, rear seats, put extra door beading, additional insulation and add VGT to the diesel, things might change for a surprise (if they can still maintain the priceline).

Last edited by specialist1968 : 15th October 2011 at 17:48.
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Old 15th October 2011, 19:26   #101
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

1. I just do not understand why people go on about reliability whenever they talk about Toyota? I just cannot understand this - probably because I do not own a Toyota? But why do people believe Toyota's are damn good? Just because they saw a qualis with 2 lakh kms on the odo? Or just because Top gear says so?

2. Toyota does not have a design department. Period. They make some of the most boring cars out there. Hyundai is totally on the opposite spectrum. Hyundai cars have that oomph factor has someone previously mentioned. The only USP of Toyota I have heard till now is Reliability which I think other cars can easily match. I can accept the fact that Toyota's are reliable but I just cannot accept the fact that Toyota's are the most reliable (I will probably have to own it to believe it). I mean people have bad experiences and good experiences with FIAT/MARUTI/HYUNDAI/TATA.

3. Probably Etios/Liva are not selling as everybody was expecting them to. But they will definately get sales for Toyota. If you ask me to buy it I will probably not buy it because it just does not excite me.
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Old 15th October 2011, 19:26   #102
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

Well Said. A quality product in the 8-11 Lakh segment would have gone a long way in not only maintaining the brand value of toyota, but also boost their bottom line.

I went for VW in this segment since I wasn't too happy with the other choices , and if I had an option with Toyota, I would have gone for it eyes closed. A golden opportunity missed, I would say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KPS View Post
I strongly believe Toyota goofed up by looking to address a segment it did not need to. Toyota is strong enough a brand to have slugged it out against the Verna/City/Vento etc with the Yaris/Vios. People have high expectations from the T Brand. The expectations is that Toyota would fight it out in the 8-11L segment. The Yaris would have been an aspirational car for many, including me. I doubt if the Etios can be fill that expectation.
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Old 15th October 2011, 19:33   #103
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by Saanil View Post
1. I just do not understand why people go on about reliability whenever they talk about Toyota? I just cannot understand this - probably because I do not own a Toyota? But why do people believe Toyota's are damn good? Just because they saw a qualis with 2 lakh kms on the odo? Or just because Top gear says so?
Not because they saw. Its because people have owned these cars for that long and all those years and kms the car still runs as good as new, doesn't fail you ever, has very low maintenance cost. Thats reliable. Don't believe me? Take a ride in my Innova and you will know what I mean.
Its not just about reaching 2L kms on the Odo. Its the whole journey that makes Toyota special!
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Old 15th October 2011, 20:17   #104
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Not because they saw. Its because people have owned these cars for that long and all those years and kms the car still runs as good as new, doesn't fail you ever, has very low maintenance cost. Thats reliable. Don't believe me? Take a ride in my Innova and you will know what I mean.
Its not just about reaching 2L kms on the Odo. Its the whole journey that makes Toyota special!
But there are many cars of other brands too which must have done 2 lakh kms without any troubles right! It would have been special if all the Toyota's had been like that. I am not sure if that is the case. I think apart from Reliability Toyota does not have any other USP. Space, driveability, interiors - every other car manufacturer has this. The thing I want to stress is - Toyota may be reliable but others are not that behind.

Anyways I think Etios/Liva sales figures are not going to increase that much from now on. Ofcourse October sales might be a little higher because of Diwali but after that I do not see the models doing great numbers.
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Old 15th October 2011, 20:22   #105
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Default re: The Toyota Diesels (Etios / Liva / Altis) didn't shake the market, did they?

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Originally Posted by Saanil View Post
But there are many cars of other brands too which must have done 2 lakh kms without any troubles right! It would have been special if all the Toyota's had been like that. I am not sure if that is the case. I think apart from Reliability Toyota does not have any other USP. Space, driveability, interiors - every other car manufacturer has this. The thing I want to stress is - Toyota may be reliable but others are not that behind.
Like which other cars? Most of them develop some niggle or the other. Ofcourse that does not mean that all Toyota cars are niggle free. But its not a fairyland right. Machines do fail at times. But the proportion of Toyota's which will come out unscathed after years of assault is much more then anyother brand.

Anyways enough of Toyota praise. Lets keep the discussion focused on Etios/Liva.
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