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Old 19th October 2011, 18:03   #16
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

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Originally Posted by ukderebail View Post
I am only worried if the weight of the vehicle is lesser and engine is powerful, will the braking system be effective. With tubeless tyres unless one has ABS system one is bound to meet with accidents. The brakes skid uncontrollably without ABS, i hope manufacturers address this problem. After two experiences of unable to control my A Star once while it was raining my vehicle veered to the left uncontrollably when i applied brake, second time i applied brake it skidded uncontrollably to hit the railway track a distant of almost 20 feet.
Scientifically Momentum can be defined as "mass in motion." All objects have mass; so if an object is moving, then it has momentum - it has its mass in motion. The amount of momentum that an object has is dependent upon two variables: how much stuff is moving and how fast the stuff is moving. Momentum (p) depends upon the variables mass and velocity. In terms of an equation, the momentum of an object is equal to the mass of the object times the velocity of the object.

p = m • v


where m is the mass and vR] is the velocity. The equation illustrates that momentum is directly proportional to an object's mass and directly proportional to the object's velocity.


Hence you just said the opposite of what laws of physics suggest.
Tubeless tires have no relation to ABS.
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Old 19th October 2011, 18:26   #17
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

I read somewhere (and also was in the Autocar show) that Tata is planning to reduce Vista's weight - apparently this is by re-designing certain parts which were present to conform to European safety regulations - if that is the case and the trend, then I'm worried. Does that mean that safety will be compromised in the Indian version compared to European one?
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Old 19th October 2011, 19:21   #18
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

I was shocked to see the alto's brochure quoted kerb weight of 705 kg for the 800 cc version. Thats about light as the omni. The k10 weighs at 760 kg, whereas the F8D had about similar weight 4-5 years ago.safety? care a damn.
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Old 19th October 2011, 23:43   #19
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

Hmmm, I have observed that Toyota cars manufactured in India have thinner sheet metal than Japanese manufactured cars, for ex: I've compared the rigidity of the Toyota Corolla 2011 model manufactured in Japan v/s India, and the Indian one is more flexible, and prone to dents/deformation v/s the Japanese one. The test in question was just me sitting on the bonnet, hitting the sheet metal with my bare hands etc..., so it was subjective in that sense, but feel free to try it out, and you can immediately feel the difference. Its very easily noticeable.

Now call me a sceptic, but I dont feel that the Indian Toyota Corolla is safer than the Jap Corolla. Same goes for other brands sold in India as well. So I'm gonna go with the theory that Indian cars are lighter for cost reasons and definitely not safety reasons or mileage reasons.

A quick google search showed that the weight of the Indian Toyota Corolla is 1200 kgs while the same model in Australia weighs 2800 lbs, which is about 1272 kgs. I cannot really believe that the Indian model is safer than the Australian model. Now, where did those 72 kgs go?

Last edited by Lalvaz : 19th October 2011 at 23:50.
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Old 20th October 2011, 01:14   #20
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Originally Posted by Lalvaz
Hmmm, I have observed that Toyota cars manufactured in India have thinner sheet metal than Japanese manufactured cars, for ex: I've compared the rigidity of the Toyota Corolla 2011 model manufactured in Japan v/s India, and the Indian one is more flexible, and prone to dents/deformation v/s the Japanese one. The test in question was just me sitting on the bonnet, hitting the sheet metal with my bare hands etc..., so it was subjective in that sense, but feel free to try it out, and you can immediately feel the difference. Its very easily noticeable.

Now call me a sceptic, but I dont feel that the Indian Toyota Corolla is safer than the Jap Corolla. Same goes for other brands sold in India as well. So I'm gonna go with the theory that Indian cars are lighter for cost reasons and definitely not safety reasons or mileage reasons.

A quick google search showed that the weight of the Indian Toyota Corolla is 1200 kgs while the same model in Australia weighs 2800 lbs, which is about 1272 kgs. I cannot really believe that the Indian model is safer than the Australian model. Now, where did those 72 kgs go?
Going by this logic, isn't Amby the safest car in India ?

BTW some of the lightest European hatches like Renault Twingo have 5 star Euro NCAAP ratings while our heavy Scorpio can't even clear crash ratings in US.
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Old 20th October 2011, 09:37   #21
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

Providing ridges on the roof or a crease on panels, will give structural stability at a lower thickness of the sheet metal.

Pedals - holes cut into the pedal reduce the weight/cost.

So yes - Reduce the weight, reduce cost of components and make money. Most junta are not concerned about the kerb weight of the vehicle - it's just 'how much/litre?" - the more the better.
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Old 20th October 2011, 11:35   #22
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

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Originally Posted by chennai-indian View Post
Does that mean that safety will be compromised in the Indian version compared to European one?
Of course..that's the whole conclusion from this thread. Anyone you know who buys a car based on its NCAP ratings? I don't know any!
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Old 20th October 2011, 23:07   #23
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

Weight reduction OK. But not at the cost of safety! The structural strength of the body shell must be greater in newer designs to make the occupants safer. We cannot expect the solid cars like the classics and vintages with a thick gauge, cold rolled sheet making up its body shell. The older cars did not have crumple zones and a safe passenger cabin in the monocoque structure.Even their steering wheels pierced the chest of the driver during impacts, costing many a life.
All said and done, newer designs need to be lighter and the weight reduction must never compromise with the safety. In fact, the NCAP rating must get upgraded every time a newer model is introduced.
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Old 20th October 2011, 23:24   #24
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

Indian vehicle manufacturers care for customer's safety? Humbug. We're talking about a country where safety features are considered 'premium' by the manufacturer, and 'useless' by majority of the volume market.

I don't blame the manufacturers completely either. They're just serving up what the customer wants. 9/10 Indians will take extra 'bling' accessories over safety features without skipping a beat. We as customers need to change first. The manufacturers will fall in line by themselves.
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Old 21st October 2011, 16:42   #25
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

Interesting thread.

What about the Boron steel (a.k.a. moron steel on this forum) on the new Ford Fiesta? Does it weigh less? I am sure that it has more tensile strength, going by the atrocious price of the car.
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Old 28th October 2011, 01:52   #26
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

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Originally Posted by ethanhunt123 View Post
Going by this logic, isn't Amby the safest car in India ?

BTW some of the lightest European hatches like Renault Twingo have 5 star Euro NCAAP ratings while our heavy Scorpio can't even clear crash ratings in US.
Pray, how did you deduce that from my comment?
All I said was comparing the same model of car sold in India v/s Japan or Australia, there is a difference in the strength of the steel used. This is easily discernible even to a lay man, and the spec sheets show a difference in weight too. Thats why I surmised that the reduction in weight in the Indian car has nothing to do with safety.
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Old 28th October 2011, 10:14   #27
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

In one of the crash worthiness tests telecast on Discovery Turbo, an older model SUV was pitted against a Toyota MUV (do not remember the model, but looked like a bigger Innova). The results were revealing. The SUV failed the test and injured the dummies, while the MUV came out with flying colours, passengers all safe.

So a larger heavier body does not guarantee crash worthiness. Lighter better designed body with crash crumpling zones does.
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Old 28th October 2011, 12:17   #28
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

The argument of lighter vehicles being more profitable need not be true in all cases.

The use of aluminium, composites and high strangth steels have their own impact on the overall cost of the vehicle interms of the tooling, fixtures, handling, base / raw materials, processing, etc.

For example changing just the grade of ordinary automotive purpose steel sheet from one to another will incur an cost impact of more than 12~15 % minimum.

Also, the actual cost of the vehicle is derived by the below relation.

Actual Sale Price = a) Actual Cost of Vehicle + b) Taxes & Levies + c) Profit

Now for any car given the category, the taxes and levies are same. Profit in the current competitive environment cannot be reduced or despised, as it will affect the sustainability of the organisation (we are in Free Market era, not in License Raj, where manufacturers determined the price).

For given category, the customer chooses the final price. So the manufacturers are left with the sole option of playing with the actual cost of making the vehicle.

The most prominent, efficient and reliable means is by reducing the weight, since material cost will be the primary trigger for the pricing. As the commodity prices keep increasing, the emphasise is more on reducing weight to keep the cost at par to the sale price without affecting the operating margins in profit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanhunt123 View Post
BTW some of the lightest European hatches like Renault Twingo have 5 star Euro NCAAP ratings while our heavy Scorpio can't even clear crash ratings in US.
HEAVY NEVER MEANS SAFE. Infact the heavier the car the more challenging it is to meet crash requirements.

A mass increases, the Kinetic energy increases (here Velocity 'V' is constant for all cars, as per regulations). Hence, the term V2 (V square) is same for all vehicles. So the differentiator is the Mass 'M', as M increases, the kinetic energy increases.

So as the vehicle undergoes crash, the Kinetic energy will become Zero. The inertia of the driver or vehicle will still be in the same direction of the vehicle. So we use seat belts, air bags to avoid this motion.

Now law of conservation of energy, comes into play. So the Kinetic energy need to be transformed to another form. Most preferred and better means is in terms of structural crush (called crumple zones), since steel has two distinct advantages - no electronic gimmicky, hence very reliable mode and cheaper to develop.

Vehicular crash standards require the Dummies to conform to certain injury criteria (degree to which the impact will induce a fatal trauma). But the degree of actual trauma may differ from one individual to another.

If we are to test the ambys' or other older vehicles, no doubt they will remain structurally intact, but will score very poorly in the injury criteria, since they are void of crumple zones or other safety mechanisms.
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Old 28th October 2011, 12:37   #29
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

Kindly note that all steels weigh the same as their density is same. What really matters is their tensile strength (at which they break / failure starts) or rather their Yeild Strength (condition at which they permanently deform) will vary depedning on their type.

For the same load, performance, life, durability and strength normal steels will be much thicker compared to their High Strength counterparts. This is the basis for the weight difference between them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
What about the Boron steel (a.k.a. moron steel on this forum) on the new Ford Fiesta? Does it weigh less? I am sure that it has more tensile strength, going by the atrocious price of the car.
By using this type of steel, the manufacturer (in this case Ford) would save a lot of metal to give the same amount of performance, safety, durabillity. since Boron steel, as rightly pointed by you has more tensile strength. In fact it can be made into one of the toughest steel sheet by employing the Hot Stamping process.

But at the same time the Boron steel costs a real bomb compared to the normal steels. Hence the high pricing of the car.

But IMHO the car is over priced a bit compared to what it actually should.
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Old 28th October 2011, 12:37   #30
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Default Re: How Indian car manufacturers are profiting by reducing weight of the vehicles

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Originally Posted by ukderebail View Post
I am only worried if the weight of the vehicle is lesser and engine is powerful, will the braking system be effective. With tubeless tyres unless one has ABS system one is bound to meet with accidents. The brakes skid uncontrollably without ABS, i hope manufacturers address this problem. After two experiences of unable to control my A Star once while it was raining my vehicle veered to the left uncontrollably when i applied brake, second time i applied brake it skidded uncontrollably to hit the railway track a distant of almost 20 feet.
Sorry for being OT but this certainly would have been a scary experience. Hope nothing serious happened.

Having said that did you report this to Maruti and if yes, what was their reply?
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