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Old 13th June 2012, 20:33   #421
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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Originally Posted by Scarlet_Rider View Post
I think you can use the same Maruti Omni Non-MPFI filter that we have used for the S1 as well. It is a perfect combination of price, quality and ease of availability. By the way, any plans on acquiring a NE?
Bought this filter yesterday, now i need to clear out one confusion, should i mount it vertically or horizontally. Mounting it vertically will require the pipes to be rerouted but will not look ugly whereas positioning it horizontally, the pipe location will be a direct fit though it will require fabrication of new mounting bracket & IMO would look really ugly.
Please suggest what should i do in this regard.

PS: I inquired about the metal fuel filter suitable for PP/NE and was shocked to hear the prices, 300-350 Rs a pc.
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Old 14th June 2012, 09:27   #422
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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Bought this filter yesterday, now i need to clear out one confusion, should i mount it vertically or horizontally.
Sagar, I think one can mount in any orientation. Only thing to be strictly observed is the direction of fuel flow.
Experts please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 15th June 2012, 11:04   #423
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Post Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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PS: I inquired about the metal fuel filter suitable for PP/NE and was shocked to hear the prices, 300-350 Rs a pc.
Yes, now that the metal fuel filters are produced less in number or not at all, the prices will be sky high.

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Originally Posted by samsag12 View Post
Bought this filter yesterday, now i need to clear out one confusion, should i mount it vertically or horizontally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilangop View Post
Sagar, I think one can mount in any orientation. Only thing to be strictly observed is the direction of fuel flow.
Yes, the fuel flow has to be strictly observed. According to Mr. Dhabhar, it should be mounted vertically. I am quoting his post from the last page below. He would be the best person to clarify as to how the position would affect the working of the fuel filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Maruti Van fuel filter suitable for carburettor vehicle must be used. The Maruti Van filter must be mounted vertically, the inlet being below the outlet. The correct location is just outside the main outlet pipe from the fuel tank.
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Old 17th June 2012, 11:58   #424
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

Have changed the filter as advised and have posted in my S1 thread to avoid off topic post here, please have a look and comment.

Link to the thread: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2811412 (Restoration of Premier Padmini S1 (the Special one))
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Old 17th June 2012, 12:06   #425
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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Originally Posted by samsag12 View Post
Have changed the filter as advised and have posted in my S1 thread to avoid off topic post here, please have a look and comment.

Link to the thread: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2811412 (Restoration of Premier Padmini S1 (the Special one))

Sagar,

Thats an AWFUL positioning of the fuel filter

Please have it removed from there and place it elsewhere, It has to be away from any place where there are electrical sparks.

1) Not near the exhaust manifold
2) Not near the spark plugs
3) Not near the ignition coil
4) Not near the fuse box
5) Not near the radiator / its hoses
6) Not near the battery.
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Old 18th June 2012, 22:53   #426
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

I am still waiting for some inputs regarding the setup guys please let me know if its orientation & plumbing is correct.
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Old 19th June 2012, 09:14   #427
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

Dear Samsag12 - I had designed, prototyped and developed the fuel filter on delivery side system for the Padmini S1 non-AC cars. The bracket takes support from the cylinder head bolts and the spring clip design is taken straight off the Nissan Sunny (MMY8054 / MMY8055 to be exact). The system is designed to hold the stainless steel Nissan specification fuel filter in place where inlet is positioned at the bottom and outlet is positioned at the top. In the layout / drawings, I had specified tie-clips to keep safe distance between the fuel system and spark plug wires. Due to non-availability of the Nissan filter, you have used Maruti Van filter which serves the purpose but its inlet and outlet positions are horizontal. In your case, the fuel pipes are physically touching the spark plug wires which carry 25000 volts. This is extremely dangerous. Please remove the filter from this location immediately. So, where and how to fit? Please see the tapered strut below the battery. You will find 2 nos M6*1.0 size projection welded nuts there. The distance between the two holes is 19 mm. The angle with the strut line is 28 degrees. This matches the distance of the fuel filter spring clip mounting holes. Please remove the rivets, discard the bracket, mount the spring clip on the LH strut and then mount the Maruti Van fuel filter on it. I think the filter diameter is slightly less than the spring clip diameter, you may have to devise a spacer locally. Then route the fuel pipe from the fuel pump to the fuel filter inlet and from the fuel filter outlet to the carburettor. Please ensure adequate clearance between the fuel pipes and the spark plug wires. You have used two piece pipe after the filter just now. Please use single piece pipe, such joints are dangerous.

Your crankcase ventilation plastic pipe has fallen off. Please put another one.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 19th June 2012, 10:41   #428
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Samsag12 - I had designed, prototyped and developed the fuel filter on delivery side system for the Padmini S1 non-AC cars. The bracket takes support from the cylinder head bolts and the spring clip design is taken straight off the Nissan Sunny (MMY8054 / MMY8055 to be exact). The system is designed to hold the stainless steel Nissan specification fuel filter in place where inlet is positioned at the bottom and outlet is positioned at the top. In the layout / drawings, I had specified tie-clips to keep safe distance between the fuel system and spark plug wires. Due to non-availability of the Nissan filter, you have used Maruti Van filter which serves the purpose but its inlet and outlet positions are horizontal. In your case, the fuel pipes are physically touching the spark plug wires which carry 25000 volts. This is extremely dangerous. Please remove the filter from this location immediately. So, where and how to fit? Please see the tapered strut below the battery. You will find 2 nos M6*1.0 size projection welded nuts there. The distance between the two holes is 19 mm. The angle with the strut line is 28 degrees. This matches the distance of the fuel filter spring clip mounting holes. Please remove the rivets, discard the bracket, mount the spring clip on the LH strut and then mount the Maruti Van fuel filter on it. I think the filter diameter is slightly less than the spring clip diameter, you may have to devise a spacer locally. Then route the fuel pipe from the fuel pump to the fuel filter inlet and from the fuel filter outlet to the carburettor. Please ensure adequate clearance between the fuel pipes and the spark plug wires. You have used two piece pipe after the filter just now. Please use single piece pipe, such joints are dangerous.

Your crankcase ventilation plastic pipe has fallen off. Please put another one.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Thanks for the detailed info. on the setup, will surely do the conversion ASAP. Just need to clarify some doubts.

1. I presume the filter is to be mounted in the same orientation as it currently is, the inlet being below the outlet.

2. Can i use the same quality pipe(currently fitted) from the outlet to the carburetor? This will eliminate the joint but due to this the metal pipe from the filter to the carb. has to be removed. I hope the rubber pipe won't create a problem or crack due to heat from the engine cover.

3. Regarding the crankcase vent pipe, i haven't seen it since ages, i think it was removed or fallen some 6-7 yrs back. Please guide me in procuring a new one as i am sure the shop guy won't understand a thing about it. They sound totally dumb when asked for a Fiat part

Last edited by samsag12 : 19th June 2012 at 10:42.
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Old 19th June 2012, 10:41   #429
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Post Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
You have used two piece pipe after the filter just now. Please use single piece pipe, such joints are dangerous.
Was just curious to know whether these two pipe pieces are both made of rubber or the black one is the original metal pipe? If it's the metal pipe, then I think what Sagar has done seem to be correct. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 19th June 2012, 10:44   #430
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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Originally Posted by Scarlet_Rider View Post
Was just curious to know whether these two pipe pieces are both made of rubber or the black one is the original metal pipe? If it's the metal pipe, then I think what Sagar has done seem to be correct. Please correct me if I am wrong.
The black one indeed is a original metal pipe Rahul bhai. Have kept it there for known reasons.
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Old 19th June 2012, 11:32   #431
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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Originally Posted by samsag12 View Post
Thanks for the detailed info. on the setup, will surely do the conversion ASAP. Just need to clarify some doubts.

1. I presume the filter is to be mounted in the same orientation as it currently is, the inlet being below the outlet.

2. Can i use the same quality pipe(currently fitted) from the outlet to the carburetor? This will eliminate the joint but due to this the metal pipe from the filter to the carb. has to be removed. I hope the rubber pipe won't create a problem or crack due to heat from the engine cover.

3. Regarding the crankcase vent pipe, i haven't seen it since ages, i think it was removed or fallen some 6-7 yrs back. Please guide me in procuring a new one as i am sure the shop guy won't understand a thing about it. They sound totally dumb when asked for a Fiat part
Dear Samsag12 - Regarding 1, yes please. The inlet goes into the side of the filter, the outlet comes out of the center of the filter, means fuel flows from out to in, that means that there is ample place inside the housing to store impurities till they are disposed off. Regarding 2, yes, or you can use Maruti Esteem fuel hose. The hose is not supposed to react with fuel. Regarding 3, there is a plastic pipe going down from the curved pipe with a holding clip on the rear nut of the fuel pump. You will not get a new one. You will have to dig it out at the scrapyard.

Dear Rahul - there is a huge history why the metal pipe was introduced. Originally, it used to be a plastic pipe. This was done as a value engineering exercise. I was asked to do it. You will appreciate that practically it is almost impossible to perfectly align a metal pipe to a filter outlet on one side and the carburettor inlet on the other side. I had designed a metal pipe with a curved rubber hose at the carburettor location but it was turned down for cost consideration. I had also specified a bolt-on bracket instead of the U clip on the rocker arm cover but this was also rejected by manufacturing. Seeing the sorry state of the clip in Samsag's car's photograph above, I can only benignly smile. So, please remove this metal pipe and throw it away, it actually serves no purpose, it adds three joints, one at it's inlet and two at the carburettor which is all quite unnecessary.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 25th June 2012, 11:26   #432
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Post Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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Originally Posted by KkVaidya View Post
I am using Bridgestone 155/80 Radials since 2004 keeping the pressure at 22/28psi (F/R) which is same as cross plies. I feel Keeping the pressure more will make the ride bumpy.
Mr. Dhabhar confirmed that the radial tyre size that we are using i.e. 155/80R13 is correct. Apart from this he also confirmed that the tyre pressures mentioned in the user's manual are incorrect for radial tyres. Pressure for the radial tyres should be between 29 to 32 PSI. Experiment with different pressures in the above range and use the one that suits best. We are now inflating all tyres to 32 PSI.

Quote:
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Please also verify that the quantity of fuel delivered by the pump in one minute is 980 cc as per design specifications.
Dear Mr. Dhabhar : I tried to verify the quantity of fuel delivered first on the old pump that we have removed. For some reason it did not work at all. Looks like we replaced it just in time!! We then measured the fuel delivery of the new pump which was already fitted. We disconnected the fuel pipe at the carburetor and directed the flow to an empty bottle for a minute. This was then measured and the quantity delivered in one minute was 1170 cc. (Almost equal to the cc of the engine!! ) Please advise if this is normal for a new pump and whether any problems may arise due to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Rahul - there is a huge history why the metal pipe was introduced. Originally, it used to be a plastic pipe. This was done as a value engineering exercise. I was asked to do it.
It is always great to read about your experiences at PAL!!

Regards and Keep Revving,

Rahul Waghmare.
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Old 25th June 2012, 11:41   #433
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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Originally Posted by Scarlet_Rider View Post
We disconnected the fuel pipe at the carburetor and directed the flow to an empty bottle for a minute. This was then measured and the quantity delivered in one minute was 1170 cc. Please advise if this is normal for a new pump and whether any problems may arise due to this. It is always great to read about your experiences at PAL! Rahul Waghmare.
Dear Rahul - thanks for your reply. You have to disconnect the fuel pump outlet and check, in this case you have not measured the fuel bypassed through the first (rear) fuel return line orifice. The second orifice is covered in your measurement because it is inside the Mikuni carburettor. It's OK because even if measured, the reading will be more than 1170 cc and not less, so the mass flow of this pump is slightly on the higher side but it is alright.

There are so many funny incidences, it will fill a whole book and you will fall down laughing! HaHaHa! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 25th June 2012, 12:39   #434
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
It's OK because even if measured, the reading will be more than 1170 cc and not less, so the mass flow of this pump is slightly on the higher side but it is alright.
It is my observation that when I used to run the engine on the Kyosan Denki Mechanical pump (OE fitment), the float level in the carburetor window would be above the center spot. I did not experience any flooding so never bothered to change it as the carb was new (in 2007) and never opened.

When i changed to the electronic pump last month, the level came to bang-on center. I did not change any setting or anything on the carburetor!
Could it be a reason that the mechanical pump was delivering at more pressure?
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Old 25th June 2012, 13:31   #435
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Default Re: The Premier 118 NE thread

Dear Mr.Vaidya - as per NISSAN manual, for Hitachi carburettor, there is a small lug under the needle valve which can be bent slightly in the field to obtain float level at center with engine idling @ 720+/-20rpm condition without rolling load (reference to chassis dynamometer). The nominal dimension from the float chamber face to the float upper side was specified for this, it was 14 mm but I need to recheck this dimension in the NISSAN manual. We had made a master guage in Kurla and we were using this guage on fuel efficiency cars. However, what you are mentioning is slightly different. On the same carburettor, you are getting two different float levels. This can be due to extremely minor leakage past the needle valve. Higher float level beyond specification deteriorates fuel economy by 1 kmpl, I had proved this on VRDE track. NISSAN specification for float level is "nominal level at dot, +/- 1 mm". You can clearly observe by squatting in front of the car and looking from the cutout provided in front of the horns, on the LH side of the radiator. Although on the dot is the best, between - and +, I prefer + side so that I have slightly more fuel in the float chamber at any given time, but within 1mm.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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