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Old 30th January 2012, 11:18   #136
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by scopriobharath View Post
In USA, Price for Gasoline / Petrol

1 Gallon - 3.5 $
3.7 litre - 175 Rs (assuming Rs 50/$ as an average)
1 litre = 47 Rs in USA

In india 1 litre is approx 75/-. Approx 40% more.
You have really not answered my question about petrol subsidy in the USA.
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Old 30th January 2012, 11:30   #137
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by scopriobharath View Post
Tax should be something like IT Slab

Cars costing below 7 lacs - no tax (Assume for private transportation)
Cars from 7-12 lacs - 20% tax
12 lacs and above - 30% tax.

The above structure will ensure Diesel cars are used for personal transportation. Luxury vehicles could/should be taxed 30%-40% tax. This will be a detterent to buy a diesel luxury car.
What appears to be a neccesity to one might be a luxury to another.

I can assure you that a vast majority of Indians still consider a car as a luxury. Maybe not in your or my circles, but lets agree to the fact that India needs to develop a lot more to consider lifting taxes on private vehicles.

Was wondering what percentage of Indians owns a private vehicle? Anybody got any idea?

Last edited by revintup : 30th January 2012 at 11:32.
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Old 30th January 2012, 11:37   #138
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by revintup View Post
What appears to be a neccesity to one might be a luxury to another.

I can assure you that a vast majority of Indians still consider a car as a luxury. Maybe not in your or my circles, but lets agree to the fact that India needs to develop a lot more to consider lifting taxes on private vehicles.

Was wondering what percentage of Indians owns a private vehicle? Anybody got any idea?
It's less than 1% - car ownership, I mean. So, surely a car is a luxury.
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Old 30th January 2012, 11:38   #139
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

Well, I am not sure about what the real situation is with the PSUs about their so-called losses on diesel fuel, but if it's true I would support this decision provided it prevents diesel from being deregulated. Deregulation on diesel would bring about huge increases in almost everything, be it transport, food & beverages, services etc etc & this list is endless.

However, at the same time, the govt. is simply playing on one side. First, they should improve the public transport system & provide good connectivity. Not just people for whom owning a car is a luxury, but also those for whom it is not a luxury would prefer traveling by such means if they are good.
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Old 30th January 2012, 15:35   #140
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

I dont understand.
Wouldn't it be a better idea to simply deregulate diesel prices and give tax breaks for commercial vehicles (such as trucks and vans)?

This might cost the government more money in the begining while actually help them in the long run. As far as issues of inflation caused by diesel prices, concerned thats always going to be the case, gently provide tax breaks and pull them out in steps with in the next 2 - 3 years!

In addition the cost saved in terms of interest will also be of help!
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Old 30th January 2012, 17:04   #141
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

What is the probabilty that the Govt will do the following
1. Green Tax for all new cars
2. Green Tax on used cars during registration
3. Green Tax mandatory on already purchased cars

What will be impact on the used car market and also currently running diesel cars.
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Old 30th January 2012, 17:13   #142
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My two cents to this discussion.

1) Indian Railways (IR) uses approximately 10% of all diesel used within India.
2) IR has had an aggressive policy until Lalu regieme of putting up more and more tracks under electric traction
3) Now after Lalu regime we see almost all of the trains using diesel power running under electric wires

Where is the Indian govt serious on reducing costly imported fuel and saving the environment? This is the biggest scam being perpetuated by the govt, and yet no one seems to realise or raise this as an issue!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
You have really not answered my question about petrol subsidy in the USA.
In USA diesel or petrol or for that matter any fuel is FREE of regulation. Heck even Avgas/jet fuel costs lesser than 97 Octane petrol.

In India taxes cost for approx 50% of cost of fuel per liter. This is the biggest scam being carried out by all successive governments, to fill their pockets and alas we are lead to believe our fuel is subsidized!!!

I pay 33% of my income as tax. On top of it I pay for VAT/SAT or any other kind of tax on everything I buy. I pay double the cost of fuel as taxes. Even then after 60 years of independance I cannot have decent roads to drive on, footpaths to walk on and public transport which I can rely on.
If I lose my job or get hospitalized, I have no benifits from my great govt and I will basically starve or die because govt doesnt care about its citizen's life or welfare.

After all this systematic rape and looting the govt expects us to bear with their 'green' initiatives??? The only green I am seeing is the illegal dollars flowing into the govt's tainted hands


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Last edited by GTO : 31st January 2012 at 13:24. Reason: STRICTLY no inappropriate language on this forum please. Remove word "s....ty"
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Old 30th January 2012, 17:40   #143
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Angry Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
I pay 33% of my income as tax. On top of it I pay for VAT/SAT or any other kind of tax on everything I buy. I pay double the cost of fuel as taxes. Even then after 60 years of independance I cannot have decent roads to drive on, footpaths to walk on and public transport which I can rely on.

If I lose my job or get hospitalized, I have no benifits from my great govt and I will basically starve or die because govt doesnt care about its citizen's life or welfare.

After all this systematic rape and looting the govt expects us to bear with their 'green' initiatives??? The only green I am seeing is the illegal dollars flowing into the govt's tainted hands
The politicians loot the public money for kick-backs and commissions. It has been scam after scam for the past two years, yet majority of the populace seems completely numb/indifferent to it. They only want to discuss films & cricket.

When will India be truly delivered!!

Last edited by GTO : 31st January 2012 at 13:24. Reason: Quoted post has been edited
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Old 30th January 2012, 17:40   #144
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

The Indian Government is always sitting on the chest of the middle class and squeezing the neck of the middle class. Theses days the middle class is the worst hit due to the government policies. Why does not the government find a better solution than the simple and idiotic measure of imposing extra tax on diesel vehicles.

There are so many cars which come only with diesel engines and even if the customer wishes he cannot buy a petrol variant of the same car. For example i want to buy a Safari which comes only with diesel engine and even if i wish i cannot buy a petrol safari. moreover all diesel cars are not sold for the sole reason that the running costs are low. there are so many factors involved in the purchase of a diesel car and not only the cost of running.

anyway as it is we are paying a premium of about Rs. 1 lac or more on diesel cars and if more additional tax is imposed it will make a big impact on so many people mainly the middle class and even the cost of hiring a taxi will also increase significantly. There are so many middle class people who dont own a car but hire a car whenever necessary and it will become unaffordable for them in that case. The auto manufacturers such as tata and mahindra will have to shut shop and so many people directly and indirectly dependent upon the manufacture, sale, service etc of diesel cars will also suffer.

At least we pay road tax, vat, tax on fuel etc, etc, in return of the subsidy offered on diesel. What is the percentage of diesel consumed by the private cars? I am very sure that it is negligible. There are so many other applications wherein subsidised diesel is used such as gensets at corporate hospitals, hotels, industries, etc., etc., how about that. whats does the farmer pay the government in terms of taxes though he gets so many subsidies and benifits from government. its not that i am against farmers and i am a farmer myself and i own more than 50 acres of agricultural and horticultural land. but there should be some justification behind every tax and there should be some return to the government from every subsidy.

Hope that the government will come with a better solution to compensate for the subsidy given to diesel and if additional tax is imposed simply on diesel cars we should definetely protest and avoid paying tax where ever possible.
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Old 30th January 2012, 18:22   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlon View Post
What is the probabilty that the Govt will do the following
1. Green Tax for all new cars
2. Green Tax on used cars during registration
3. Green Tax mandatory on already purchased cars

What will be impact on the used car market and also currently running diesel cars.
Already purchased cars?
30 year old Premier Padmini too ?
Imagine a Padmini owner paying 20Ks (suppose) for a car which won't yeild him 10Ks

I am not sure if already sold cars will come under the green tax norms
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Old 30th January 2012, 18:59   #146
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by revintup View Post
What appears to be a neccesity to one might be a luxury to another.
I agree, but then, India has a mentality of TAXING only those who will be able to be taxed.

So, more you earn, more you pay. No one cares about if it meets the individuals daily expense or not. Ofcourse, you have "some" tax exemptions, but its all for name sake.

Most (atleast more than 60%) of high end cars are bought on company name, to show as expense and claim benefits out of that. Now, tell me why should you buy such expensive cars?

They should also put a slab that "official" class of vehicles should have a higher slab. Its for the purpose, and not for the luxury. Right?

In my opinion they should make DIESEL sold at market price. Irrespective of its public or private. Tie it will the Income tax Dept, allow them to claim Tax Benefits for the proportionate subsidy Govt. would have paid for the bills he produce for the fuel in that year.

Atleast to get this tax claims, every shop-walla will have to file returns.

And you see how the Govt cash-reserve gets filled.
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Old 30th January 2012, 19:06   #147
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

This issue is always taken emotionally by diesel vehicle owners/intending purchasers. Facts are given the go-by.

To get this discussion in to the realm of the logical and rational following issues need to be focused on:

[1] Is Diesel the cleaner of the two fuels i.e. Petrol vs Diesel? If so what grade of Diesel - the one sold in India or the ULSD sold in Europe?

[2] For the government to claim it is incurring losses on Diesel, the government owes it to the citizens to open up the accounting for Diesel pricing by the PSUs' to public scrutiny. Has it done so? I am not aware of that. I would be very grateful for any information that is available in the public domain.

[3] What are the alternative solutions to subsidised Diesel which can be used to compensate sectors critical to the economy in case Diesel pricing is done on a sans subsidy basis?

My understanding of the issue and it's implications are:

[] In India we are not being provided Diesel which is ULSD. To reach the refining level of ULSD, refineries will have to make very substantial investments in technological upgradation, which they do not find viable under the current pricing regime. Hence free market pricing is the situation that will enable them to go in this direction.

[] I will give the government the benefit of doubt WRT to it's stand that OMCs' are having under recovery in case of Diesel unless proven otherwise. Also it is a fact there is a shift in buyer preferences when making a choice for the purchase of new vehicles. The fuel price arbitrage is working in favour of Diesel. Automobile companies are using this to rake in the moolah by charging more for Diesel vehicles than is warranted on account of difference in equipment costs based on fuel used. This trend if not arrested now , will have a snowballing effect on the subsidy the government will have to fork out for Diesel.

[] This whole convoluted inane nonsense of differential pricing of different fuels on considerations other than economic has created this mess. If the government wishes to subsidise some sections of the populations on social considerations then it should do so directly rather than through such senseless policies. The ideal solution is for both petrol and diesel to be priced freely without any nonsensical administrative fiats which only distort the cost structure in the entire economy.

Now you good people are free to find fault with my submissions. Wherever you find a factual error in my submissions kindly go ahead and point it out.

* If your contention is this government is corrupt tell me which government is not? That still does not detract from the economic merit of a sensible energy policy

* If your contention is because roads are bad and you have no health care inspite of paying taxes, go right ahead and stop paying taxes or sue the government for a refund. Better still join public life and become the change you seek. Just don't go around claiming a subsidy. This country is full of people who need support, I am sure we are not from that segment.
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Old 30th January 2012, 20:24   #148
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

Petrol is not de-regulated either, is it? If you observe the trend, petrol prices increase right after some state elections never before the elections. So the petrol prices are still controlled by the government. What about the losses that the Oil PSUs incur because of such steps by the party in power?

This will be amplified if Diesel is priced at market rates.

What if Petrol cars are made cheaper than their diesel counterparts e.g. less excise. With the increase in cost difference and availability of better cars in a given price range sales of Petrol cars might increase.
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Old 30th January 2012, 20:36   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
You have really not answered my question about petrol subsidy in the USA.
When there was a recession in the US, and the Gas prices went near the 5$/g mark, Govt reduced taxes and provided a subsidy immediately to reduce the burden on the common USA Man. Sorry, I googled for a link, but could not find it

Quote:
Originally Posted by revintup View Post
What appears to be a neccesity to one might be a luxury to another.

I can assure you that a vast majority of Indians still consider a car as a luxury. Maybe not in your or my circles, but lets agree to the fact that India needs to develop a lot more to consider lifting taxes on private vehicles.
That is exactly what i am saying. Let there be 1000 benefits for Farmers, people below poverty line, people under X caste/color etc or whatever, reservation, rice @ Rs 1/- etc.

Let there be just ONE friendly facility for the Tax paying salaried middle class, in the form of Fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
However, at the same time, the govt. is simply playing on one side. First, they should improve the public transport system & provide good connectivity. Not just people for whom owning a car is a luxury, but also those for whom it is not a luxury would prefer traveling by such means if they are good.
+1 to that.
I think the same way. IF there are AC / Volvo Buses from my home to my workplace and I at the very least get a place to stand comfortably, I would prefer taking a bus. I assume that they are at least 60% punctual compared to London / USA. Whether a luxury or not, Car helps me get to my office without sweating and on time. If Govt can make public transport efficient, I will dump my Car. When I was in USA, i did not rent a car. I managed with Buses and Trains ONLY for office commute and weekend sightseeing & Shopping commute.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 30th January 2012 at 21:22. Reason: Merged as reported. Please use the edit function next time round. Thanks for the report! :)
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Old 30th January 2012, 20:42   #150
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Originally Posted by mjothi View Post
I agree, but then, India has a mentality of TAXING only those who will be able to be taxed.

So, more you earn, more you pay. No one cares about if it meets the individuals daily expense or not. Ofcourse, you have "some" tax exemptions, but its all for name sake.

Most (atleast more than 60%) of high end cars are bought on company name, to show as expense and claim benefits out of that. Now, tell me why should you buy such expensive cars?

They should also put a slab that "official" class of vehicles should have a higher slab. Its for the purpose, and not for the luxury. Right?

In my opinion they should make DIESEL sold at market price. Irrespective of its public or private. Tie it will the Income tax Dept, allow them to claim Tax Benefits for the proportionate subsidy Govt. would have paid for the bills he produce for the fuel in that year.

Atleast to get this tax claims, every shop-walla will have to file returns.

And you see how the Govt cash-reserve gets filled.
Bills?
I will attach my personal diesel car fuel bills with the concerned person and will get my share of return illegally.
In a country blessed with black money making skills this will just add a feather to the cap.

People talk about deregulating diesel but is there any solution for those who have high mileage run or use vehicle for mass transportation/taxi purpose ?

If diesel price will come to the level of petrol then who will buy a diesel car ?
1.0-1.5 lakhs extra for equivalent diesel car?
Chances are extremely fat.

- We will not have a cheap means of transportation
- We don't really promote alternate fuel
- We don't have convenient public transportation system throughout the country
- Government still doesn't have any alternate benefits as yet !

I believe additional taxes on diesel cars is a better idea than deregulating diesel.
- Atleast people will stop buying diesels if the requirement isn't there
- For high mileage users, diesel will still have benefits in long run
- Private/public transportation will be still economical
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