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Old 15th June 2012, 20:47   #361
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

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Originally Posted by KarthikK View Post
I just received a call from my Maruti SA about my Swift ZDi booking. My delivery was due around October, but the SA had called to 'warn' about possible increase in diesel car prices by 1.5 lacs.
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EDIT : My friend who booked a red ZDi (delivery date december) also got a call saying his car has arrived and he can avoid the extra tax by taking now. His dealer is different from mine, so I suspect all Maruti dealers are playing around with this tax scare.
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
^^^Same for my BIL's friend whose booked-and-waiting-for-months VDi is now magically available immediately. Again this is a dealer in TVM - BIL got a call from QLN dealer.
Interesting point to note is this is Maruti we are talking about. The Swift/Dzire are cars that will sell irrespective of backlogs/waiting periods. I doubt if any of the sales guys are short on their targets with respect to these two cars. So why exactly are they doing this? Do they know something that we don't?
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Old 15th June 2012, 21:59   #362
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli
So why exactly are they doing this? Do they know something that we don't?
Indeed, they seem to have some info that we dont have. I wonder what that is.

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Originally Posted by samarjitdhar
Well what you proposed like bringing the price of diesel at par with petrol that is about 70 sure calls for hefty taxation. Diesel is actually priced realistically while petrol is not.
And on what basis do you say that it is priced realistically ? Maybe compared to the US prices in $ terms. But then they are sitting on huge reserves of crude and can arm-twist the Gulf countries to supply them at low prices. We dont have those luxuries.

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Originally Posted by samarjitdhar
The more the petrol price rises, it seems, the lesser state of peacefulness would be with petrolheads at a point when they have to take public transport and stop being presentable also
Petrol price will have to rise quite high before many of us have to sell our cars. But even then it would be better to sell our cars and use PTS but retain our dignity in our country than take the escape mode of switching citizenship and living in some other country as an alien.

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Originally Posted by samarjitdhar
Well you might not when you tank up but most of what you have expressed here till now seems that diesel users are cheating by not sharing the pain of the petrol users. This is something similar to the feeling which was expressed in another thread.
No one said anything about cheating. Infact in another thread, someone called diesel users looters. I dont subscribe to that either. Diesel is available at a lower price for anyone who wants to buy it and so nothing wrong in buying/using it. The exhortation is for the Govt to do something about this, not to diesel users to give up their diesel cars. Not sure why this bothers you so much.

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Originally Posted by selfdrive
Why can they not deregulate diesel, sell it at market price and then give subsidies in terms of returns to these transporters? Or whoever they think deserves it. Maybe they can be given income tax exemption on diesel usage upto a certain extent.
Too much of a hassle & cost in terms of effort/money in enforcing and doling out the subsidies. And another option for corruption.

Infact a better solution seems to be in the query raised by Prakash_ajp. How much would it cost extra to make a diesel engine compared to a petrol engine of the same capacity ? Anyone in the auto-manufacturing field who can provide figures for this. I doubt it takes more than 25K (max) extra to make a diesel engine of say 1.3 litre (MJD) compared to say a 1.2litre K-series. If so, the auto-cos are looting us by charging a premium of close to 1lakh for diesel cars. If this is true, let the govt charge a tax of say 75K on diesel cars. Companies have to adjust to environmental factors and I am sure auto-cos will protect the investment they made in diesel by giving up 50K-75K extra they are charging currently. The car-buyer might have to pay the remaining 25K-50K and which is still OK given that diesel prices wont be raised.
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Old 16th June 2012, 01:29   #363
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

Guys, I guess I choose the wrong words while putting across my suggestion. When I meant tax the rich, I was referring to tax the luxury cars running on diesel. Luxury cars buyers certainly can afford to pay a few lakhs more excise duty as a compensation for using subsidized fuel primarily meant for running the country.

The reason to subsidize diesel I assume is its the primary fuel for public and commercial transportation which affects the common man. My only question is why a luxury car owner must receive that subsidy?
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Old 16th June 2012, 02:23   #364
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

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Originally Posted by mail4ajo View Post
Guys, I guess I choose the wrong words while putting across my suggestion. When I meant tax the rich, I was referring to tax the luxury cars running on diesel. Luxury cars buyers certainly can afford to pay a few lakhs more excise duty as a compensation for using subsidized fuel primarily meant for running the country.

The reason to subsidize diesel I assume is its the primary fuel for public and commercial transportation which affects the common man. My only question is why a luxury car owner must receive that subsidy?
Just a point of view:

Totally agree that the fuel cost can be the same, but then why tax more? Why should the car overall also cost more? One really wouldn't buy a diesel car for so much more & pay the same to refuel as petrol.

Example: Imagine a luxury car that costs 32.51 lacs ex showroom is 46.5 lacs onroad currently! You're saying tax the person more on this car?

Thats also my 100th post
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Old 16th June 2012, 05:06   #365
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

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Originally Posted by Karan1981 View Post
Just a point of view:

Totally agree that the fuel cost can be the same, but then why tax more? Why should the car overall also cost more? One really wouldn't buy a diesel car for so much more & pay the same to refuel as petrol.
So you are the saying the more one pays for a car, the cheaper he should get his fuel?
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Old 16th June 2012, 05:09   #366
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Originally Posted by carboy

So you are the saying the more one pays for a car, the cheaper he should get his fuel?
:-) Of course not dude, read my message again
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Old 16th June 2012, 11:07   #367
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

With a new FM on the cards all bets are off! Also, with Mamata going out they may be able to hike prices.
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Old 16th June 2012, 16:20   #368
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

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Originally Posted by mail4ajo View Post
Guys, I guess I choose the wrong words while putting across my suggestion. When I meant tax the rich, I was referring to tax the luxury cars running on diesel. Luxury cars buyers certainly can afford to pay a few lakhs more excise duty as a compensation for using subsidized fuel primarily meant for running the country.
Well no problem at all. Let's say we tax luxury cars a lot more and by some magic we are able to bridge the diesel "subsidy" gap. I say magic because given the sheer number of luxury cars that are sold in India I wonder what should be the taxation amount to bridge that gap. Of course the definition of luxury is subjective so it would be good to know from your perspective what would be the cut off. And then once we have this tax, this guy here Farmer splurges Rs 17 lakh on car registration number - The Times of India might still be able to buy his Landcruiser. Now guess how much he pays in income taxes. Yup probably zero. I hope you get the picture now as to why the deficit-subsidy game is more or less over.

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With a new FM on the cards all bets are off! Also, with Mamata going out they may be able to hike prices.
Mamata might still stay on. She has a lot riding on her in terms of development in the state. But price hikes in diesel do you mean? By how much? Rs 2/3 maybe after a lot of brickbats and dog fights? That supposed deficit on subsidy or whatever will still not be bridged and still the petrol users will be upset about diesel price being so low. Also imagine what would it do to inflation where the middlemen are just waiting for such a wonderful excuse to drive prices through the roof. I bought beans today for Rs 150/kg. I wonder where will it end up with a diesel price rise and a failed monsoon. I am sorry but this game of punishing the middle class every time to make up for the government's failures is almost over. This government will face a lot of opposition Mamata or no Mamata if they try to raise prices.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 16th June 2012 at 16:29. Reason: multiquoted
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Old 16th June 2012, 19:59   #369
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

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Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
Mamata might still stay on. She has a lot riding on her in terms of development in the state. But price hikes in diesel do you mean? By how much? Rs 2/3 maybe after a lot of brickbats and dog fights? That supposed deficit on subsidy or whatever will still not be bridged and still the petrol users will be upset about diesel price being so low. Also imagine what would it do to inflation where the middlemen are just waiting for such a wonderful excuse to drive prices through the roof. I bought beans today for Rs 150/kg. I wonder where will it end up with a diesel price rise and a failed monsoon. I am sorry but this game of punishing the middle class every time to make up for the government's failures is almost over. This government will face a lot of opposition Mamata or no Mamata if they try to raise prices.
Mamata even if she hangs on will have no power to veto anything. Now if she stays on it will be because of her need/greed and no more. I expect the support to be frozen at, say, max Rs.5/-per litre and the rest passed on, in one or two instalments. Then they will bank on rupee appreciation, and Brent dropping to $90 (as they expect) to wipe out the support payments. In fact today wearing is FM cap Pranab was even willing to look at taxation reduction on fuels in the ASSOCHAM lecture. With Pranab out of FMs office I will expect some action on the Vodafone case which may improve market sentiment no end. I am afraid food inflation is here to stay for some time.

Last edited by sgiitk : 16th June 2012 at 20:01.
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Old 16th June 2012, 20:33   #370
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Whats the definition of rich? Very relative!
In India now for generations we ve been paying lip service to the Robin Hood philosophy of tax the rich and give to the poor.
In the process it is only the middle classes that get whacked from all sides, being dealt mortal blows almost daily!
The real rich dont care because nothing affects them, the politicos dont give a toot because they also have plenty of undeclared wealth. The poor are too downtrodden to bother about anything except their daily bread!
What a bleedin' mess!

And here we have so many sanctimonious comments about people being able to afford some more just because they are well off. Well, some of us have worked very hard indeed to be able to achieve stuff that is considered basic anywhere else. And despite paying huge taxes, are still forced to worry about medical help, costs of living, education and stuff. All this, without proper basic infrastructure and other hygiene facilities for which we have already paid up in full, in advance!

Sorry for the rant but I am completely disgusted with the scene here!
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Old 16th June 2012, 20:42   #371
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I expect the support to be frozen at, say, max Rs.5/-per litre and the rest passed on, in one or two instalments. Then they will bank on rupee appreciation, and Brent dropping to $90 (as they expect) to wipe out the support payments. In fact today wearing is FM cap Pranab was even willing to look at taxation reduction on fuels in the ASSOCHAM lecture. With Pranab out of FMs office I will expect some action on the Vodafone case which may improve market sentiment no end. I am afraid food inflation is here to stay for some time.
While reduction of taxation on fuels is welcome talk the diesel picture is a bit different. The lion's share of the taxes on diesel is collected by the states and increasing it to nullify the supposed under-recoveries will just push up inflation a lot, even if the center chooses to forego the small amount of VAT it collects from diesel. I doubt how much taxes will be reduced in petrol as the government doesn't perceive it to be contributing to inflation.

A lot of this looks like policy making on hope and prayer rather than sound judgement and analysis. The OPEC has clearly stated that they would like Brent to stay in the $100-$120 territory specially in face of US becoming more self sufficient in the past two years which means lesser demand from the US. They will obviously like to make up for the shortfall in revenue from Brent by reducing production and taking the price above $100. That way they ensure that their supplies last longer and continue to earn oil dollars for the foreseeable future . I don't see those fat sheikhs taking a cut in the no. of official and unofficial wives they can maintain royally. I am also not too hopeful about the Rupee coming back with a bang to help reduce the oil bill given the balance of payments situation. With the world economy slowly going down the toilet, the balance of payments will only get worse. This is an excellent site to get a snapshot of how India is performing Indicators for INDIA. Things only seem to be moving southwards.

OT: While Mamata's demand was close to Rs 23K crores, it seems Mulayam's demands are close to Rs 66K crores for his son's subsidy schemes . It seems the current government only believes in solving the immediate problem at hand thereby creating a much larger monster for the future. This is not only policy paralysis but also long term vision impairment.


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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Whats the definition of rich? Very relative!
In India now for generations we ve been paying lip service to the Robin Hood philosophy of tax the rich and give to the poor.
In the process it is only the middle classes that get whacked from all sides, being dealt mortal blows almost daily!
The real rich dont care because nothing affects them, the politicos dont give a toot because they also have plenty of undeclared wealth. The poor are too downtrodden to bother about anything except their daily bread!
What a bleedin' mess!
+1 billion. The poor are intentionally kept poor so that they never start critically analyzing and take informed decisions. They must be always worrying about how would they feed their family the next day. That is the policy adopted by our politicians. Now the sector under attack seems to be education where they want to do away the concept of exams and assessments totally. Remove the barometer with which you can measure performance, no scope of criticism even if education goes way sub-standard.

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
And here we have so many sanctimonious comments about people being able to afford some more just because they are well off. Well, some of us have worked very hard indeed to be able to achieve stuff that is considered basic anywhere else. And despite paying huge taxes, are still forced to worry about medical help, costs of living, education and stuff. All this, without proper basic infrastructure and other hygiene facilities for which we have already paid up in full, in advance!

Sorry for the rant but I am completely disgusted with the scene here!
Another +1 billion. Not only paid up in full but also subsidized basic facilities for a lot of the less fortunate. Now none of us would complain if the less fortunate ceased to be so less fortunate even after 60 odd years of independence as a result of receiving those subsidized facilities, but it seems they are even worse off now. Reason being all of the money for those subsidies have been siphoned off. So as a result the honest tax payers who worked hard to get a decent life should suffer even more? I am sorry those who subscribe to such an school of thought are using nonsensical bizarre logic.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 16th June 2012 at 20:52. Reason: multiquoted
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Old 16th June 2012, 21:13   #372
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Originally Posted by samarjitdhar

+1 billion. The poor are intentionally kept poor so that they never start critically analyzing and take informed decisions. They must be always worrying about how would they feed their family the next day. That is the policy adopted by our politicians. Now the sector under attack seems to be education where they want to do away the concept of exams and assessments totally. Remove the barometer with which you can measure performance, no scope of criticism even if education goes way sub-standard.

Another +1 billion. Not only paid up in full but also subsidized basic facilities for a lot of the less fortunate. Now none of us would complain if the less fortunate ceased to be so less fortunate even after 60 odd years of independence as a result of receiving those subsidized facilities, but it seems they are even worse off now. Reason being all of the money for those subsidies have been siphoned off. So as a result the honest tax payers who worked hard to get a decent life should suffer even more? I am sorry those who subscribe to such an school of thought are using nonsensical bizarre logic.
60 odd years of 'reservation' and all that nonsense doesnt seem to have done anything positive in terms of upliftment of the real down trodden!
However much our scumbag politicos may rant and rave and use rhetoric, where are the blasted results?
Else does it mean that they are going accept failure?
And the best part is that the self same down trodden classes are the ones that are proliferating in the zillions through procreation!
Ridiculous.
Sometimes, at the risk of sounding unpatriotic, it might have been better if we had had the white man's rule for a little longer, at least until we were able to learn greater responsibility in self governance! As it is giving us Independence has simply created the foundation for another Self Righteous, Hypocritical Banana Republic.
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Old 17th June 2012, 06:47   #373
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

Have a look at this article Diesel exhaust fumes more harmful - News - Autocar India.

Instead of talking on adding up the cost, I hope the authorities look into bringing in better emission norms, and its strict enforcement.
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Old 17th June 2012, 07:22   #374
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on diesel cars

In my opinion the automakers are up in arms against the Additional Tax for Diesel cars primarily because they would not be able to charge the high premiums any more because the difference between Petrol & Diesel cars would be too large to eat into Petrol Car Sales.

Correct me if I am wrong, the difference between Petrol & Diesel cars contain a high artificial premium charged by the auto makers taking advantage of the Diesel Pricing Policy. Car users take their share of premium in diesel vehicles when they resale their cars.

If so why should the government not levy the additional taxes to offset the subsidy in Diesel. On an average Diesel subsidy is roughly around Rs.5/- per litre at the minimum, at about Rs.1,50,000/- it works out to about 150 litres a month for a 15 year lifespan of a Diesel car. The question is should the first buyer alone pay the additional levy when in most of the cases the cars are sold off at about 5 years for a new car.
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Old 17th June 2012, 09:28   #375
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by octy9833 View Post
A better option as a couple of our members suggested, is to have an yearly tax of say 4000~5000 on diesel vehicles. Anything more might even kill the diesels.
Agree... instead of killing the customer and the auto segment why not impose a "car tax", "Congestion tax", "Pollution tax" to make citizens more responsible and use cars only when required. That will be more sensible than just trying to rob the customer all at once and give a sudden death to the auto industry. There will be no second thought from auto majors to shift their factories to Thailand or Srilanka or Indonesia or wherever.

A good example will be to charge a "Hefty Congestion tax" to drive into congested places like T nagar in Chennai. Get rid off the autos, provide proper pavements and let people walk around.
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