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Old 2nd November 2011, 12:14   #31
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

Wouldnt it be far better for Government to Increase the Diesel Prices closer to Petrol say a max 5% gap and start distributing the Farming related diesels though Public Distribution System (PDS- with Ration Cards) much the same way as Kerosene is sold today? It will take care of Government's headache of controlling the pricing on Petrol Pumps and take care of total Quantity of subsidized Diesel to be distributed.

Last edited by anu21v : 2nd November 2011 at 12:16.
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Old 2nd November 2011, 12:19   #32
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

I wish there would be checkpoints/oversight comms to actually respond to us with details on utilization of the tax.
I for one, if i see the returns on my money in proportion to the kitty collected, then tax away.
These random hikes when the authorities lose money should be offset my logic and morals in lowering of the same in case of profits.
And i dont recall even a single instance.

I dont like my money going in to build sub-standard infrastructure, and a q7 for my mp neighbour.

but hey, we will grin/squirm, and bear it.
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Old 2nd November 2011, 12:26   #33
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by vijaycool View Post
Instead of burdening car owners with more tax the govt can provide two types of diesel fuel. One with superior quality and other diesel which CRDI engines cannot run(poor quality) but non ecu engines can run. This way the govt can increase the price of premium diesel and keep subsidy for the other type of fuel. Nobody will risk putting inferior diesel on their modern engine.
Regards,
Vijay
Seriously Vijay this is an Ubercool idea. The only hitch is that we would have to trust the pump guys to have the two different types of compatible diesels. The other problem is that my Junkindica of the model year 2000 with a mechanical pump and injection system can ingest a diet of the presently available super diesel and normal diesel without a problem but my Cruze can only take in the normal diesel as the super diesels available presently in the pumps is poison to its injection system and is displayed prominently in the manual and the fuel door/flap. What do I do then. This is true for all Euro4 compliant engines including the new Passat and Jetta.
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Old 2nd November 2011, 12:40   #34
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
Seriously Vijay this is an Ubercool idea. The only hitch is that we would have to trust the pump guys to have the two different types of compatible diesels. The other problem is that my Junkindica of the model year 2000 with a mechanical pump and injection system can ingest a diet of the presently available super diesel and normal diesel without a problem but my Cruze can only take in the normal diesel as the super diesels available presently in the pumps is poison to its injection system and is displayed prominently in the manual and the fuel door/flap. What do I do then. This is true for all Euro4 compliant engines including the new Passat and Jetta.
I mentioned in a polished way . Premium doesnt mean additives. Good cetane rating with less sulphur and suspended particles comparable to euro IV & V standard.
Ordinary diesel can be differentiated with color like red diesel in European countries so people can know if mixed with high quality diesel.

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Old 2nd November 2011, 12:41   #35
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

This is what I love about India. Nothing ever tends to move towards the betterment of the masses, irrespective of whichever party won the elections.

I'm sorry if I offend anybody who believes that this is a good move, but this is absolutely rubbish. If taxes are to be imposed to screw every citizen who wants to stay within certain price-points, then I suggest that the government also impose (higher) taxes on air, water, babies, scenery, etc.

This is another blatant example of a public servant's over-enthusiastic approach towards increasing their personal wealth. Hello??? Is anybody listening - the word is Public "SERVANT". That doesn't necessarily mean that the public is your servant.

In an article which appeared in the Economic Times in August 2011, Manmohan Singh stated that:

"the US and Europe were suffering and there is some discontent in certain corners about India's relatively resilient economy, stable growth and rising purchasing power."

In light of the statement, I have to ask - "Slow Economy"? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? The middle class spending power of India was estimated to be higher than the cumulative spending capability of multiple European countries put together!!! Heck, Kerala broke some kind of weekly alcohol purchase global record recently.Also keep in mind, India is not a country that necessarily reduces on creature comforts during these supposedly "slow economic time".

There is enough and more money entering the government coffers, ladies and gentlemen. The only real question is, where is it being spent.

To all who supported the move - are you aware of the income of the central government from taxes? To those who do not know, I invite you to do your own research - because the numbers I see are staggering!!! Are you seriously telling me that the government is so cash strapped that instead of working out mutually beneficial alternatives, the only answer is to slap on another tax?

Being from Karnataka, where the road tax is a massive 10%, I wholeheartedly reject this idea - primarily because I am NOT seeing ANY value in terms of road maintenance. Instead, I'm wondering why I paid road tax in the first place.

I'm seeing a fascist attitude from the supposed "powers that be" in terms of what can be imposed on the average citizen. But I'd like to just state:

"Alan Moore: People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people."
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Old 2nd November 2011, 12:44   #36
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by kiran View Post
I believe that it is unnecessary to discuss if the farmers are rich or diesel car owners are rich. The idea is to keep diesel price low - is to get benefits to the poor farmers. Can anyone deny this? The processing cost, crude oil cost, the levies, transportation costs are more or less equal for Petrol and diesel. How and why the diesel price has been kept low? Is it not only to encourage the farming system? Why the other people should get benefits? What is wrong in asking them to pay little extra tax on extra luxuries they enjoy??
Who are the "other" people ? Don't you get benefitted when you pay less for your fruits and vegetables because the truck belonging to a rich transporter guy supplying to the rich kirana / rich Big Bazar bought by the rich ususes subsidised diesel due to which they charge less transportation cost. Besides the above , the cold storage's backup power uses the subsidised diesel to run their gensets which helps bring down the costs for the rich us . So those extra luxuries are enjoyed by one and sundry - that includes the farmer because rise in prices leads to contraction in demand which slams them too . Thus the reality check is in order in case we delude ourselves that diesel benefits only the diesel car owners .
The simplest solution is to de-regulate diesel prices ( govt should also take off their sticky hands and remove the horrendous taxes/levies), even then diesel prices would be at the same level or lower than its currently [ petrol prices would come down , pls do not be fooled by the term "under-recoveries" ] . Let the government raise the tax for infra extra under specific heads so that its administration can be monitored rather than being raised through fuel levies .
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Old 2nd November 2011, 13:00   #37
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
So does it not make more sense to bring in EU 5 norms. EU 5 will mean diesel cars will be more expensive due to particulate filters and like.
And they will be significantly less polluting and be greener than petrol cars.

I completely agree.
This seems to be a very sensible course of action where everyone benefits.
There is less pollution being generated.
The people do not have to pay another unfair tax.
Diesel cars will still be more expensive.
The government get's a benefit in the form of Carbon Credits.

Win-Win-Lose-Win
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Old 2nd November 2011, 15:58   #38
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by anu21v View Post
Wouldnt it be far better for Government to Increase the Diesel Prices closer to Petrol say a max 5% gap and start distributing the Farming related diesels though Public Distribution System (PDS- with Ration Cards) much the same way as Kerosene is sold today? It will take care of Government's headache of controlling the pricing on Petrol Pumps and take care of total Quantity of subsidized Diesel to be distributed.
The demand for Diesel will be present from a much wider class of people(everybody with a diesel vehicle/genset etc.) compared to that for kerosene (Honestly, people use kerosene for cooking/a few generators, hence demand will be from fewer people). What this will cause is a massive black market to acquire diesel at PDS prices. This is not a good idea. The OP's post which mentions additional levies on diesel cars during sale is a better idea. The levies should be calibrated such that it will make sense only for people who drive a lot to buy a diesel car.

Another idea is to not levy taxes on fuel to subsidize things, instead increase prices/taxes of services or products(toll roads, luxury/premium items are a couple which come to mind).
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Old 2nd November 2011, 16:35   #39
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I don't think many people realize that the carbon footprint of a a diesel car is much less than that of a similar petrol car.
Sure, add a 50,000/year tax to diesel cars to dissuade people from buying diesel cars, but when all of them start buying petrol vehicles, its going to be problem, esp if India starts dealing in carbon credits and all seriously.
Very sensible point, not only are the new generation diesel cars more efficient but, much more cleaner than their petrol variants. Diesel usage would also reduce the overall fuel consumption of the country as the engines would run more on less fuel, thus additionally helping the environment.
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Old 2nd November 2011, 19:27   #40
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Unhappy Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
A bit of reality check is required here - please do consider that a vast category of rich farmers who do not pay a single paisa of tax ! And btw , there are luxury petrol cars also available so they should be taxed too ?



There is no law which prevents you from switching crops , you would have to bear the risk of changed subsidies if you do . I also note that you are silent on the fact that you do not have to pay tax on your agri income , thats also a subsidy , isn't it ? Do you think you should enjoy that benefit ? Its meant for rural poor farmers so if we get into a socialistic debate , lets weed out all benefits that are social anomalies. I am sure that you pay the same price for diesel as we pay so I am not sure where you are coming from when you say "No further subsidy or grant on Diesel there"
BTW, hope you are aware that gasoline engines also deplete Ozone layers so maybe we should go back to horse drawn carriages and bullock carts ? Even Prius is more polluting than a conventional car if you consider the carbon footprint of its entire manufacturing process

I simply hate this over simplistic arguement with the pseudo socialistic hue for taxing diesel vehicles - there are immensely more rational reasoning behind taxing diesel vehicles than that cited by you. It cannot be an excuse to bridge the rich poor divide as the arguement is flawed . If its used by the govt to fill their coffers for development work , etc thats a plausible arguement but lets not be (mis)guided by the masquerading of the corrupt political class.

As suggested by one BHP-ian here , let diesel car owners pay a higher levy every year to be recovered through the annual insurance renewal . Let this levy be decided based on average crude prices which should address concerns about why we should pay a tax if crude prices crash. This would also ensure that usage is being paid for rather the burden being borne only by the new users. Why should a cleaner tech be hampered by a lumpsum charge , we would be shooting ourselves if we do that !

@ tsk1979 ( just saw your post ) - EU 5 norms would mean huge invetsments at the refinery levels , is there a corporate will ( and govt will since most are PSUs) to do the same ? As you rightly pointed out , diesel would need to be priced higher if the capex has to be justified

What makes you say that? Are you thorough about the set of laws we have in our state? And what makes you think I'm not a rural farmer? Or do you think a rural farmer is someone who should be half naked with no shirt on, no education and no access to computers? Its saddening to see you jump to conclusions about someone who is a total stranger to you. The income I or my entire family makes as a whole wont even amount for Income Tax payment even. In other words, I'm no Big time feudal land lord. Another thing is even rich farmers pay taxes, Land tax being one. And we use susidised diesel for farming purposes only, Its the fuel that goes into the tiller and thats about it and the bloke who does the tilling gets the fuel from a fuel station at the same price everyone else pays.

Also its farmers, Rich ones or poor for that matter, that feed the world and if the government or someone else thinks its okay to let them die out or look for other lucrative vocations, Then who's going to do the dirty work of farming? At the moment not many people are into farming and the costs are rising and that is whats making you raise an eyebrow when you push the trolley along the super market and look at provisions.

Farming is increasingly becoming a war of sorts with the climate change and many other things. If we get to produce more food and at lower costs, The benefit is passed on.

And about the Ozone layer part you are right, What I was trying to say is that when one gets cheap diesel he will burn it more without a second thought than someone who uses Petrol. And I've already said it before in other threads, The Government shouldn't increase the price of Diesel but slap an additional yearly or half yearly tax or cess on all Diesel cars and not just on the new Diesel car owners (If not all than upwards of B Segment.) They can always relax on the taxes if and when the price of crude falls.(Which is never going to happen probably.)

Last edited by jalex77 : 2nd November 2011 at 19:32.
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Old 2nd November 2011, 21:05   #41
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

The sops dont reach the needy, then why just carry on with the subsidy? Its hightime the diesel prices are deregulated. A yearly premium for diesel car owners will only make the calculation more skewed. Lets consider a diesel car driven 40k+ kms per year and another 8k+ kms. The regulated price benefit the first one draws is much more in comparison to the second, but both would end up paying the same extra premium, if at all it is to come in force. Instead, pay for only your meal (or) buy fuel at market price for your exact needs would be the ideal way to go.

Its just more means of taxing the common man, when the rich know their way to get away / have not much to bother and still burn more fuel. Its quite difficult to have differential pricing for diesel, as, with rampant trafficking, in no time its going to prove futile. Instead, reduce certain taxes where it would translate / provide the same impact as the diesel subsidy did. For example, the inter-state goods carrier charges, tax on food produce / agricultural products reduction can be a good offset to pass on same benefits to the needed beneficiaries, as they did with the deregulated diesel prices. A yearly premium or additional levies only seem to be a short term gimmick and not in the best interests. Just my take.
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Old 2nd November 2011, 23:30   #42
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by jalex77 View Post
What makes you say that? Are you thorough about the set of laws we have in our state? And what makes you think I'm not a rural farmer? Or do you think a rural farmer is someone who should be half naked with no shirt on, no education and no access to computers? Its saddening to see you jump to conclusions about someone who is a total stranger to you. The income I or my entire family makes as a whole wont even amount for Income Tax payment even. In other words, I'm no Big time feudal land lord. Another thing is even rich farmers pay taxes, Land tax being one. And we use susidised diesel for farming purposes only, Its the fuel that goes into the tiller and thats about it and the bloke who does the tilling gets the fuel from a fuel station at the same price everyone else pays.

Also its farmers, Rich ones or poor for that matter, that feed the world and if the government or someone else thinks its okay to let them die out or look for other lucrative vocations, Then who's going to do the dirty work of farming? At the moment not many people are into farming and the costs are rising and that is whats making you raise an eyebrow when you push the trolley along the super market and look at provisions.

Farming is increasingly becoming a war of sorts with the climate change and many other things. If we get to produce more food and at lower costs, The benefit is passed on.

And about the Ozone layer part you are right, What I was trying to say is that when one gets cheap diesel he will burn it more without a second thought than someone who uses Petrol. And I've already said it before in other threads, The Government shouldn't increase the price of Diesel but slap an additional yearly or half yearly tax or cess on all Diesel cars and not just on the new Diesel car owners (If not all than upwards of B Segment.) They can always relax on the taxes if and when the price of crude falls.(Which is never going to happen probably.)
The discussion has gone enough OT - just wanted to point out that I am very well conversant with agri laws of Kerala and the tax laws thus my statement does not have any "ifs" and "buts", I called your bluff as politely as possible . For the rest of the ideological talk , lets save it for another day when I would be interested enough in discussing farmer's dress, education or computers .
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Old 2nd November 2011, 23:51   #43
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I don't think many people realize that the carbon footprint of a a diesel car is much less than that of a similar petrol car.
Sure, add a 50,000/year tax to diesel cars to dissuade people from buying diesel cars, but when all of them start buying petrol vehicles, its going to be problem, esp if India starts dealing in carbon credits and all seriously.
I always thought that the diesel engine was a bigger culprit in the case of pollution.Leaving aside the lesser harmful Co2, doesn't a diesel engine produce soot/suplhur and suspended particulates in the air.I read once somewhere that these particulates etc are carcinogenic.

Petrol cars due to the presence of the catcon are said to produce only Co2,water vapour etc though not sure about this.Co2 can be controlled by planting more trees etc but the carbon soot from diesel engines, how does one get by that ?
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Old 2nd November 2011, 23:57   #44
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

I drive a diesel Cruze and I welcome this move. Even better if they bring in as someone said an yearly tax or license fee for driving diesel cars in the country.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 02:49   #45
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Default Re: Govt plans to impose additional levies on cigarettes and diesel cars

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Originally Posted by kadanaJ View Post
I don't mind paying extra taxes as long as I know it's ultimately going to benefit me at the end of the day.

Unfortunately, in our country, that rarely seems to be the case. It'll most likely end up in some politicians pocket.

Being familiar with the petroleum industry, I know that this would do some good to take off some of the burden from oil companies of under-recoveries from diesel.

HOWEVER: Guys, are we forgetting that cars in our wonderful country are some of the costliest in the world??
And like mentioned by others, the system of our country is so adept at making peoples' hard earned money vanish into unknown pockets so I'd rather keep my money in the bank and have the government owned oil companies continue showing losses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I don't think many people realize that the carbon footprint of a a diesel car is much less than that of a similar petrol car.
Agree. Although a liter of diesel has more carbon content than a liter of petrol, a liter of diesel gets you farther than petrol does.
So for travelling the same distance you will be burning less carbon in a diesel car, and you'll be reducing CO2 and CO pollution along the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Sure, add a 50,000/year tax to diesel cars to dissuade people from buying diesel cars, but when all of them start buying petrol vehicles, its going to be problem, esp if India starts dealing in carbon credits and all seriously.
To be fair to the argument I will mention that although diesel engines emit less CO2 and CO per km, they emit much higher quantities of NOx and particulates compared to petrol. Also, the production of diesel engines is a much more costly process compared to petrol engines. The amount of metal used is much more so diesel loses on a few carbon points there.

----
But let's say we scrap petrol altogether, and produce all diesel oil in our refineries (not practical, but just for discussion's sake).

Diesel, as you probably know, is a heavier component, and is obtained lower in the fractional distillation column in the refinery.
There are 100s of types of crude oils classified on the basis of API gravity (and sulfur content). Heavier crude oils give more percentage of diesel than petrol.

And since heavier crude oil is found in nature more abundantly than the lighter varieties, it is cheaper. Incidentally the crude oil discoveries in India are all of the heavy types. Of course it is possible to produce higher quantities of petrol too from these, by way of 'cracking' the higher hydrocarbons to lower hydrocarbons. But then, this involves investment of crores in such cracking units and they take consumables and energy to function.

Producing only one variety for public distribution would also bring HUUUGE savings on storage and transportation costs. (Number of pipelines to be laid reduces, tank lorries need not have separate compartments, storage tank farms can be smaller, installations/depots are less complicated, our petrol pumps need only fewer tanks & dispensers, etc. etc.)

So going by this, if we were to derive only diesel from crude, it would turn out to be much cheaper for the Indian economy. And we could get diesel at rates of about 15-20 rupees per liter with current crude rates, with no loss to oil companies.

So I say, tax the petrol cars to hell and give tax rebates on the diesel vehicles. How does that sound?
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