Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th November 2011, 11:48   #91
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Kottayam
Posts: 1,081
Thanked: 153 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishnurp99 View Post
The diesel car owner is not getting any additional benefit. He just paid more initial money and got a more FE car which burns lesser fuel.
Of course Diesel owner is getting additional benefit. Currently, the additional money they spent at the time of purchase is not enough to compesate for the subsidy on diesel he/she consumes during the life of the vehicle. If you notice the equation i gave considers the fuel efficiency. Once there is no additional benefit (ie additional duty goes up), still people are buying Diesel for fuel efficiency, that is great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subbarp View Post
My thoughts on this topic of taxation are as follows:
Your suggestion is also very good. This eliminates the one time penalty, ie at the time of purchase.

Bottomline, Something needs to be done to avoid the disparity. going off topic, this is a whole new discussion, let do it in some other thread.

Last edited by teamveevee : 6th November 2011 at 11:55.
teamveevee is offline  
Old 6th November 2011, 11:55   #92
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Chennai
Posts: 314
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

The problem is that if you bring usage into the picture there will be widespread corruption. How do you know how much a person has used his diesel car? Because of the high ex-showroom prices of diesel the govt already pockets a higher tax. Especially in cities like bangalore because of the higher tax rates i believe the total tax difference for a car which cost 4 lakhs and say 5 lakhs will be around 20k. not sure if this discussion should be carried on some other thread since this is focussed on the october sales only.

I don't agree that the diesel owner is getting any special benefit. The petrol diesel price differential has been in existence for a long time. The person who went for a petrol car could have as well gone for a diesel car if he wanted a cheaper fuel but he went for a petrol because of lower cost + the refinement and lower percieved maintainence of the petrol. It's also important to understand that the subsidy for the diesel is only around 5-6 rs. The lion's share of the price differential is due to taxation.

if the petrol-diesel price differential was something which happened say suddenly then yes the diesel user is getting benefit but in this case this has been in prevalence for a long time. In fact in january 2000 the price of petrol was 25.94 and diesel was 14.04. if you see from a % prespective the diesel prices have increased by more than 300% while petrol increase is only around 250%.

Last edited by vishnurp99 : 6th November 2011 at 12:16.
vishnurp99 is offline  
Old 6th November 2011, 12:01   #93
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Kottayam
Posts: 1,081
Thanked: 153 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishnurp99 View Post
The problem is that if you bring usage into the picture there will be widespread corruption. How do you know how much a person has used his diesel car? Because of the high ex-showroom prices of diesel the govt already pockets a higher tax. Especially in cities like bangalore because of the higher tax rates i believe the road tax difference for a car which cost 4 lakhs and say 5 lakhs will be around 20k
The usage figure is not based on the actual usage of each vehicle. It is a national average usage per year calculated by some regulatory body, which can be adjusted periodically, but will be same for all cars. In this approach, Those who use more than the average may slightly benefit and less used once will feel penalyzed.
teamveevee is offline  
Old 6th November 2011, 13:16   #94
BHPian
 
rednikhil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bangalore.
Posts: 165
Thanked: 145 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

It's sad to see the "once darling of the C+ segment" Honda Civic languishing at the bottom of the sales charts, month after month. But the problem is that if it is the new US spec Civic that they intend to launch in 2012, then I don't see the sales going anywhere. Its the same old engine (not necessarily a bad thing) and a bad looker (no design flair) with only some additional features thrown in. The character and charm of the present car is all gone. They really need to do that extra bit more. It could be the scorching hot Si version, or it could even be the "hot hatch" European Civic with a 1.8-2.0 L petrol engine or a 2.0 L i-DTEC diesel engine, something that can change the game the way the current model did in 2006. Hope the guys at Honda fulfill our desires.
rednikhil is offline  
Old 6th November 2011, 13:54   #95
BHPian
 
justwheels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 320
Thanked: 200 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

Monthly Car sales thread is probably the most awaited thread now a days, especially with tight competition in all segments and bad to worst times of automobile industry around the corner.

Coming to numbers, my two cents:

Hyundai EON : I am Sure will dent a few numbers into Alto, but more so will erode a lot from Nano. Tata's need to think again.

Tata Nano : You can't say it is a market failure, but surely a sales failure. Unfortunately, Nano has been beneficial to others than Tata itself. They showcased that it is possible to build a car like that, more so what not to do with that car. Nano V2 is needed Ratan Sir.

Maruti Suzuki : A sad saga of labour problems. Gujarat Calling!

M&M : If you are a Tiger, the best you do is hunt, not waste time leaning eating Grass. M&M has shown that there core competencies are MUV's and man you can't beat them there.

All others : They do what they do best - Sell Cars.

In a way tough month for all. Seems all are waiting for 2011 to get over, its just not the best of times to be in.
justwheels is offline  
Old 6th November 2011, 14:49   #96
BHPian
 
hellmet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: GTA
Posts: 810
Thanked: 637 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by subbarp View Post
I am wondering what is the impact to the environment if there is tilt of Diesel car ratio of 50% of overall previously (example only - I don't know the actual numbers) to a Diesel car ratio of 85% in coming years.

Do our roads get more /less of carbon monoxide/ Sulphur compounds as a result of this trend towards diesel? Has any study / assessment done on this by any agency?

thanks.
What environment are you talking about? After soaking for years in bus and auto smoke on the Indian roads, I've given up even being agitated over pollution. The government will not dare touch the bus/lorry/auto union, but we're easily targeted and will continue to be.

It is my honest suggestion to you to stop bothering about pollution since that will get you nowhere but for adding more things to worry about in this stressful life of ours.

Apologies for going OT.
hellmet is offline  
Old 6th November 2011, 22:41   #97
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: delhi
Posts: 99
Thanked: 17 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by subbarp View Post
I am wondering what is the impact to the environment if there is tilt of Diesel car ratio of 50% of overall previously (example only - I don't know the actual numbers) to a Diesel car ratio of 85% in coming years.

Do our roads get more /less of carbon monoxide/ Sulphur compounds as a result of this trend towards diesel? Has any study / assessment done on this by any agency?

thanks.
Less fuel burnt per kilometer , diesel surely is more environment friendly than petrol.
Most people cant believe this as they see only the black smoke coming out from diesel tailpipes.
ramesh is offline  
Old 7th November 2011, 02:49   #98
BHPian
 
ethanhunt123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 869
Thanked: 243 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramesh

Less fuel burnt per kilometer , diesel surely is more environment friendly than petrol.
Most people cant believe this as they see only the black smoke coming out from diesel tailpipes.
Not exactly. Diesel engines emit less CO2 indeed BUT they emit far more particulate matter and NOx. Typically Europeans give more weight to CO2 emissions while US standards are more towards particulate matter (primary reason why diesel is almost non-existent in US market).

So a blanket statement that diesel is more environment friendly is False.
ethanhunt123 is offline  
Old 7th November 2011, 08:56   #99
Senior - BHPian
 
Behemoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 1,094
Thanked: 1,555 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanhunt123 View Post
Not exactly. Diesel engines emit less CO2 indeed BUT they emit far more particulate matter and NOx. Typically Europeans give more weight to CO2 emissions while US standards are more towards particulate matter (primary reason why diesel is almost non-existent in US market).

So a blanket statement that diesel is more environment friendly is False.
Hi Ethan,

What you have mentioned is also not correct. In Europe, since EU4 norms came into play. DPF has been made madatory for cars and the since DPF is used, all the particulate matter is also filtered out. Also, the NOx is taken of in the catalytic converter. Currently they have moved onto even more stringent EU5 norms, where the limits on CO2, Particulate matter and NOx are even stricter. They do give weightage to CO2 emissions, and tax slabs are based on this, but at the same time, they also have the regulated limits of NOx and Particulate matter which are strictly enforced. Also, every year, all the cars / buses / trucks have to undergo a fitness test at the Motor authority (call MOT in UK) in which the road worthiness of the vehicles are checked, including all electrical systems, engine fitness, suspension, tyres, etc.
Beyond all these measures, they also use Ultra low sulphur (Delhi NCR also has started getting this now) and hence particulate matter is even lower.
The reality is that in Europe, almost 60% cars are diesel, inspite of diesel being as expensive as petrol there.

All these measure together ensure that the pollution levels are kept lower, and it is this what our government lacks - unified actions towards a common goal. Here, they will tax and penalize one set of people while the set of trucks and buses, and generators etc go scot free and actually cause the pollution.

Regards,
Behemoth
Behemoth is offline  
Old 7th November 2011, 13:38   #100
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Noida, Gurgaon
Posts: 438
Thanked: 128 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemoth View Post
Hi Ethan,

What you have mentioned is also not correct. In Europe, since EU4 norms came into play. DPF has been made madatory for cars and the since DPF is used, all the particulate matter is also filtered out.
Care to explain what DPF is and how it solves the problem of emission ?
anu21v is offline  
Old 7th November 2011, 13:49   #101
Senior - BHPian
 
Behemoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 1,094
Thanked: 1,555 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by anu21v View Post
Care to explain what DPF is and how it solves the problem of emission ?
Sorry for the response.
A DPF is a "Diesel Particulate Filter" which is part of the exhaust system in a modern diesel vehicle and designed to reduce Particulate matter from the emissions. You can find a lot of info on DPF on the link below:
Diesel particulate filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, adding two more useful links for emission reduction
Catalytic converters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
EGR (Exhaust gas recirculation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EGR

These are a few of the technologies for reduction of emissions from diesel engines. Also, today's common rail direct injection technologies are much more efficient and reduce emissions to a large extent. The key criteria which is used by most developed countries is measured in g/km (so higher fuel efficiency matters).

Regards,
Behemoth

Last edited by Behemoth : 7th November 2011 at 13:57.
Behemoth is offline  
Old 7th November 2011, 13:54   #102
Team-BHP Support
 
Vid6639's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14,471
Thanked: 19,385 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

That's interesting, Alto sold 6000 lesser than last month and Hyundai sold 6,000 Eon's.
Vid6639 is offline  
Old 7th November 2011, 13:56   #103
Distinguished - BHPian
 
volkman10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 10,062
Thanked: 15,601 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
That's interesting, Alto sold 6000 lesser than last month and Hyundai sold 6,000 Eon's.

Please note the drop in Santro's too. Guess it is related to the Eon sales.

cheers!
volkman10 is offline  
Old 7th November 2011, 15:46   #104
BHPian
 
veyron_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 419
Thanked: 225 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

It would be more insightful if we could get the exact numbers of some models like Alto and Alto K10, Indica and Vista, Indigo and Manza etc,. Also, if we could get the petrol-diesel break up on all models, that would be helpful too.
veyron_head is offline  
Old 8th November 2011, 21:18   #105
Distinguished - BHPian
 
anjan_c2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: India
Posts: 5,531
Thanked: 4,705 Times
Default Re: October 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis

The October 2011 sales figures are manifested under very abnormal conditions- very rarely do such conditions come into play all at once.The first was the sky-rocketing retail petrol prices and its differential with ruling retail diesel prices, next the roof touching car loan interest rates and lastly the shutdown at MSIL, the largest car maker much like GM for us here. As in the US they used to say "whats good for the GM is good for the US", we here are yet to devise such phrases or wise-cracks here in India.
But all the odds and evens added made the Top 20 list full of seismic shocks for MSIL.
The Alto remained unbeaten but had to swallow a humble pie with lower sales, the lowest since a long time. Had the Hyundai i10 come out with its diesel variant, I am sure it could have toppled the Alto at least last month! The Indica/Vista has as I had said, not performed any miracles but the lower diesel price blessed the hatch.Imagine the Bolero beating the Wagon R !!It happens only in India! The Swift despite one of the worst scenarios in MSIL since 1984, emerged with sales of 7845 units.The usual best sellers from MSIL are all there but are beaten by other brands-all pipe-dreams for us during normal times and when the going is good!
But when a reigning champion is down with flu, yet joins the competition but is beaten black and blue by the nos. 2,3,4, in several competitive sweepstakes, no one understands the flu. The media headlines proclaim "No. Uno beaten black and blue by nos. 2,3,4 and so on.Thats what competition is all about.
The car makers who were having their "Indian Dreams" like GM, Ford,VW, Toyota (for the smaller cars) and even Nissan are now getting a good pie of the market. Their diesel variants and the mid 2011, MSIL propofol dose (not lethal like Michael Jackson- MSIL at least woke up) went on a big way to prop up their sales figures.
The Mahindra Scorpio at # 16 (sweet) looks beautiful. The Innova is again down to # 19 below the Scorpio.
Look at what the transformation of the Verna has done-the 4217 units it sold is nearly more than three times the older Verna sales.
Tata had introduced the Sumo Grande which is a flop UV. The Sumo was selling so well in the taxi segment. Tata thought the Grande will take the Sumo's crown and do exceedingly well. But no way! The Taveras and Boleros have captured that late 1990's niche of the Sumo and the Trax. Tata should seriously reshape the Sumo and launch a 6-7 L Sumo with a new engine to again take back its old share for the brand equity it still has.
The Nano at # 17 selling 3868 units, with so many offers (including meeting Mr Ratan Tata in person in some showrooms) and the October festival season proves that it is with the Aria, continuing as a source of migraine for Tata Motors. Only pray it does not develop into a brain tumour!
The Ambassador sales at 161 units outsells all other cars by HM-Mitsubishi. It has happily also outsold the Fiat Linea (127 units). The Mitsubishis other than the Pajero (150 units) don't sell.
And what a surprise here ? The A Star sold 277 units and the Gypsy 270 units. The A Star was supposed to be the Alto in its latest avatar! The Manesar shut down was perhaps responsible for the dismal figure of 277. But if there are no buyers be it Manesar or Sanand, the car remains a lemon.
The Verito is a 2011 success story. Thats marketing.Its sales figures were matching with the Ambassadors at < 500 units in 2010. But at 1818 units, its a soother now for M&M.
The Suzuki Kizashi at 3 units has outsold the Hyundai Sonata which sold 2 units.Petrol power for premium cars that is! And the Vitara- ZERO units!
November 2011 may spring more surprises. The Eon and the XUV500, both new launches shall do better. The petrol prices have been again jacked up.The Indigo/Indica stand to gain.Manesar is regaining its figures with the pigeons of peace flying above it. These pigeons need to be there and not shooed away.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 8th November 2011 at 21:27.
anjan_c2007 is online now  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
October 2014 : Indian Car Sales Figures & Analysis Aditya The Indian Car Scene 102 9th December 2014 10:01
October 2013 : Indian Car Sales Figures & Analysis GTO The Indian Car Scene 103 2nd December 2013 00:39


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 02:33.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks