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Old 8th August 2012, 17:45   #61
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

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Originally Posted by manishk123 View Post
Exactly what i'm trying to say. Look at the prices of these cars in other countries like the US and you'll know how these car manufacturers are taking us for a ride (even after accounting for the higher duties and taxes in India).
You can't compare different markets like that. Every country is different, with a different type of market catering to different kinds of people having different priorities and requirements. European countries prefer large hatchbacks and estates / station-wagons while USA and Thailand thrive on pick-up trucks. Ours is a hatchback market predominantly.

For instance, in Singapore, the duties on cars is a whole lot more than it is here in India vis a vis the price and standard of living. Cars cost twice or thrice as much as they otherwise would in Singapore, if I'm not wrong.

Buying cars in other countries is not easy either. While you can plonk 20 lakhs on a Laura vRS including insurance and registration here in India, elsewhere, it's an entirely different ballgame. For example, the procedure to procure insurance is long and tedious not to mention HUGELY expensive - and the insurance agents will provide you with a quote only after inspecting your bio, past driving records, etc. The price of insurance depends on your age, your driving habits, your insurance claims, etc. So if you're on the younger side and plonk your money on a fast car like a Subaru Impreza STI or a BMW 1-M, you've got to be prepared to shell out much more that you'd have imagined.

So comparing different markets is never a good idea.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 8th August 2012 at 17:53. Reason: typo
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Old 8th August 2012, 19:24   #62
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Originally Posted by manishk123

Exactly what i'm trying to say. Look at the prices of these cars in other countries like the US and you'll know how these car manufacturers are taking us for a ride (even after accounting for the higher duties and taxes in India).
If you are comparing the prices, then please compare the features provided as well. I agree that prices are little higher in India but when you compare features provided, it's really not that big of a difference. Take a Toyota Corolla, it comes with latest 7 speed AT tranny, leather seats, climate controlled HVAC, better interior materials and lot of other features that are not available even as an option in US spec Corolla. What the hack, it comes with an age old 4 speed torque converter, Fixed ORVM that can't be closed at all (forget about auto close that even Corolla MT has in India). You have to understand, these cars are entry level sedans in USA but here in India, they are in higher segment, so they are loaded with features.

And moreover, these cars have been growing in size with the time and with inflation and other factors like higher tax structure, I am pretty sure they are not highly overpriced.
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Old 9th August 2012, 12:17   #63
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

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Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
ACI have uploaded the read test review report of the Toyota Camry, the link to which is attached below-

New Toyota Camry review, test drive | Review | Autocar India

It interiors too seem to be inspired from the Lexus like the exteriors, to entice premium car buyers.

However, I feel they should have launched the US spec Camry, with bit spruced up interiors, as it looks much better than the APAC one.
... & the BSM Road Test Report for the Camry:

REVIEW! New Toyota Camry

It definitely looks sharper than the outgoing model, & is bigger inside as compared to the Accord. Need to see how does the 2013 Accord (which is reduced in length measures up against this).
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Old 9th August 2012, 12:23   #64
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
You can't compare different markets like that. Every country is different, with a different type of market catering to different kinds of people having different priorities and requirements. So comparing different markets is never a good idea.
Ofcourse we must compare same car, same spec for price per country. After all we are speaking of ex showroom prices. What has insurance cost got to do with it?

If I get a Toyota Camry in say US for equivalent of Rs 10lacs and same spec (may be even lower spec) Camry in India for Rs 20 lac, I will ofcourse crib. What is Toyota charging me extra Rs 10 lac in India? Import duties? When it is manufactured here? For the price of being Indian?

Whole lot of bull crap being fed to us by Japanese and European manufacturers and being swallowed by us Indians.
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Old 9th August 2012, 17:06   #65
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
You can't compare different markets like that. Every country is different, with a different type of market catering to different kinds of people having different priorities and requirements. European countries prefer large hatchbacks and estates / station-wagons while USA and Thailand thrive on pick-up trucks. Ours is a hatchback market predominantly.

For instance, in Singapore, the duties on cars is a whole lot more than it is here in India vis a vis the price and standard of living. Cars cost twice or thrice as much as they otherwise would in Singapore, if I'm not wrong.

Buying cars in other countries is not easy either. While you can plonk 20 lakhs on a Laura vRS including insurance and registration here in India, elsewhere, it's an entirely different ballgame. For example, the procedure to procure insurance is long and tedious not to mention HUGELY expensive - and the insurance agents will provide you with a quote only after inspecting your bio, past driving records, etc. The price of insurance depends on your age, your driving habits, your insurance claims, etc. So if you're on the younger side and plonk your money on a fast car like a Subaru Impreza STI or a BMW 1-M, you've got to be prepared to shell out much more that you'd have imagined.

So comparing different markets is never a good idea.
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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Ofcourse we must compare same car, same spec for price per country. After all we are speaking of ex showroom prices. What has insurance cost got to do with it?

If I get a Toyota Camry in say US for equivalent of Rs 10lacs and same spec (may be even lower spec) Camry in India for Rs 20 lac, I will ofcourse crib. What is Toyota charging me extra Rs 10 lac in India? Import duties? When it is manufactured here? For the price of being Indian?

Whole lot of bull crap being fed to us by Japanese and European manufacturers and being swallowed by us Indians.
Thanks apachelongbow! My sentiments exactly.

Suhas you need to get your facts right. Which market prefers what type of car has nothing to do with pricing. We need to compare apples to apples.
As apache said insurance cost too has nothing to do with the selling price of the car.
Moreover owning a car is more expensive in Singapore because you need to buy a permit at an auction to buy a car. The cost of the permit is at times almost half the price of the car. That amount goes to the government and not to the manufacturer so its got nothing to do with the price of the car. Also Singapore has limitations on the number of cars it can allow since its just a tiny island, so the situation is not really comparable with india.

Curious to know the india pricing of the Camry now after this debate.

Last edited by manishk123 : 9th August 2012 at 17:08.
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Old 9th August 2012, 18:27   #66
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
If I get a Toyota Camry in say US for equivalent of Rs 10lacs and same spec (may be even lower spec) Camry in India for Rs 20 lac, I will ofcourse crib. What is Toyota charging me extra Rs 10 lac in India? Import duties? When it is manufactured here? For the price of being Indian?
You can't just go with a sack of dollar-bills equivalent to rupees 10 lakhs, leave it at a Toyota dealership somewhere in the US and drive away in a brand new Camry. Insurance costs count at the end of the day. You are spending the money, aren't you? It's not like you spend exactly 10 lakhs and not a dime more.

And the Camry is NOT manufactured or even assembled here. It's imported, and just like in many other countries, there is tax on imported goods. If you want to buy a new Camry for 10 lakhs, you're better of with a used one, or you're just in the wrong country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manishk123 View Post

Suhas you need to get your facts right. Which market prefers what type of car has nothing to do with pricing. We need to compare apples to apples.

Moreover owning a car is more expensive in Singapore because you need to buy a permit at an auction to buy a car. The cost of the permit is at times almost half the price of the car. That amount goes to the government and not to the manufacturer so its got nothing to do with the price of the car. Also Singapore has limitations on the number of cars it can allow since its just a tiny island, so the situation is not really comparable with india.
You need to get your facts right, Sir.

You think the duties we pay on imported (CBU) cars go to manufacturers?

The Civic and Corolla is not manufactured here. It's just assembled. And assembled cars are not exempt from tax and duties either.

The road-tax structure and insurance structures on cars elsewhere NEED to be taken into account because you will be paying the amount needed to be paid.

Also, how does one state that the market has nothing to do with it? Do you even know how the Indian automobile market works? Do you know what the popular cars are?

Cars like the Camry and Corolla are popular all around the World. They hold various records with respect to sales in several countries. These cars are offered with more than 3 engine options at all times. With so many variants and options to choose from, the model spans across a price-bracket that's huge, starting with the smaller 1.4 mill - variants that are sold as taxis.

The market here in India is different. Take a look at the sales charts. People here buy hatchbacks. This is a market that's driven by people who want small cars. With the exception of a few cars like the Bolero, the Innova, etc. the sales-charts are littered with hatchbacks ranging from Altos to Swifts to 800s back in the day.

So the market and the way it functions plays a huge role on what is popular and what gets sold the most.

EDIT: Please stick to the topic.
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Old 9th August 2012, 19:57   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Ofcourse we must compare same car, same spec for price per country. After all we are speaking of ex showroom prices. What has insurance cost got to do with it?
Please compare the Corolla's specs for USA and India. Look at my above post where I have detailed out some of the major differences in features. Moreover, Indian market is getting matured slowly and will not buy car just because it's Honda or Toyota. Altis is segment leader because it's a competent product, whereas Etios is not setting sales chart on fire even though it's from Toyota.

Again, I will say, prices are on little higher sides but not by a big margin.

Let's try and stick to the topic here.
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Old 9th August 2012, 20:01   #68
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

It's really not appropriate comparing prices abroad to Indian conditions. There are so many factors in play. Each manufacturer may position its product differently in different countries and its products are also perceived differently in different country. Like e.g. the premium position that Toyota enjoys in India may not hold good say e.g. in Europe. So Toyota will price its product differently in India than say e.g. in the US. Also local duty structure plays a significant role.

So lets just stick back to the topic and analytically analyse one the best selling models in the world that is about to launch here.
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Old 10th August 2012, 12:59   #69
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
You can't just go with a sack of dollar-bills equivalent to rupees 10 lakhs, leave it at a Toyota dealership somewhere in the US and drive away in a brand new Camry. Insurance costs count at the end of the day. You are spending the money, aren't you? It's not like you spend exactly 10 lakhs and not a dime more.

And the Camry is NOT manufactured or even assembled here. It's imported, and just like in many other countries, there is tax on imported goods. If you want to buy a new Camry for 10 lakhs, you're better of with a used one, or you're just in the wrong country.



You need to get your facts right, Sir.

You think the duties we pay on imported (CBU) cars go to manufacturers?

The Civic and Corolla is not manufactured here. It's just assembled. And assembled cars are not exempt from tax and duties either.

The road-tax structure and insurance structures on cars elsewhere NEED to be taken into account because you will be paying the amount needed to be paid.

Also, how does one state that the market has nothing to do with it? Do you even know how the Indian automobile market works? Do you know what the popular cars are?

Cars like the Camry and Corolla are popular all around the World. They hold various records with respect to sales in several countries. These cars are offered with more than 3 engine options at all times. With so many variants and options to choose from, the model spans across a price-bracket that's huge, starting with the smaller 1.4 mill - variants that are sold as taxis.

The market here in India is different. Take a look at the sales charts. People here buy hatchbacks. This is a market that's driven by people who want small cars. With the exception of a few cars like the Bolero, the Innova, etc. the sales-charts are littered with hatchbacks ranging from Altos to Swifts to 800s back in the day.

So the market and the way it functions plays a huge role on what is popular and what gets sold the most.

EDIT: Please stick to the topic.
I fail to understand what is the point you're trying to make, other than try to justify your argument with irrelevant comments. The cars I own go well into 7 and even 8 figures so its not that it affects me if they want to charge 10 lacs or 25 lacs for a camry. What i am trying to say that the price manufacturers charge the customers here are not justified compared to their costs!

And by the way, both civic and corolla are over 80% indigenised.

Thats all I have to say on this and I will not be responding to this issue any further.
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Old 10th August 2012, 17:07   #70
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Smile Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
How relevant is this new Camry in India?

All Camrys in India, as we know, are CBUs. Which automatically make it more expensive than it actually should be. Hoteliers can rejoice! But the common man looking for a D-Segment car? Not quite.

As far as I'm concerned, if this Camry is not going to be assembled here in India, I don't see how it has any relevance.

Toyota. For God's sake. Would it kill you to assemble it here? There is, most certainly, a large market for D-Segment cars. So what in the World is stopping you?
Looks like you got your wish with the Camry being launched on August 24. Toyota to launch its all-new premium luxury car Camry in India on August 24 - Economic Times

To sum up the details in this article -
Declining to give out details on the features of new Camry, he said the components of the car would be imported and assembled at Bangalore plant. "We have enough space there to produce the car," he said. (He meaning TKM Deputy Managing Director (Marketing) Sandeep Singh)
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Old 13th August 2012, 10:01   #71
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

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Originally Posted by manishk123 View Post
I fail to understand what is the point you're trying to make, other than try to justify your argument with irrelevant comments. The cars I own go well into 7 and even 8 figures so its not that it affects me if they want to charge 10 lacs or 25 lacs for a camry. What i am trying to say that [u][b]the price manufacturers charge the customers here are not justified compared to their costs!
My apologies for elaborating on the topic... But you must understand that the Corolla has its main bits - the engine and power train imported from Japan. And these CKD parts have a 120% interest on them. As for Camry, 89% of the parts are being imported from Japan and the only additional profit for Toyota would be the rest 11% parts and the relatively cheaper labour in India. What would you expect them to do?

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Originally Posted by manishk123 View Post
Thats all I have to say on this and I will not be responding to this issue any further.
Good for you ;-)

Last edited by Carb : 13th August 2012 at 10:16.
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Old 13th August 2012, 12:13   #72
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

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And these CKD parts have a 120% interest on them.
Duty on CKD parts is 60%.
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Old 13th August 2012, 19:59   #73
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Originally Posted by manishk123

Duty on CKD parts is 60%.
Please go through my posts on this thread regarding difference in features offered in India spec Corolla vs. US spec Corolla.

For the record, we own Corolla in both USA and India and know the difference in features provided. Indian spec Corolla is loaded compared to USA spec Corolla. Actually, it's the Germans (BMW, Audi and Merc) where the difference in price is more compared to Japs.
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Old 24th August 2012, 12:12   #74
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

New Toyota Camry launched at Rs 23.8 lakh (Ex-showroom, Delhi).

Website also updated - Toyota - Camry - Lead By Example

It is sacrilegious to see only 2 Airbags in a car of this class in today's day and age. A glaring safety omission by Toyota. Also the Reversing Camera is a paid accessory and not a built in feature.

Last edited by dkaile : 24th August 2012 at 12:40.
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Old 24th August 2012, 14:48   #75
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Default Re: Scoop!! A new D segment car spotted testing. New Toyota Camry??

Mod Note : The Team-BHP Toyota Camry Review has been uploaded at this link (Toyota Camry : Official Review). Please continue the discussion over on the review thread.

Last edited by GTO : 24th August 2012 at 16:05. Reason: Updating in bold
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