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View Poll Results: No Automatic for me because:
Fuel-efficiency concerns 236 18.63%
I love Manual transmissions! 507 40.02%
AT option is unavailable on my choice of car (including diesels) 387 30.54%
I don't think the cost premium (75 - 100K) is worth it 210 16.57%
Maintenance concerns 150 11.84%
Other reason (please specify in your post) 36 2.84%
Not applicable. My next car WILL be an Automatic 287 22.65%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1267. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 9th June 2015, 12:39   #571
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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Originally Posted by pamiboy View Post
The general perception of poor fuel economy for automatics are not entirely true either and in some instances the newer automatics /CVTS have better fuel economy.
I am not the expert here, but i was under the impression that CVT's are costlier to maintain than AMT's.
What's your experience about it ?

And more over, when i read about the internal operations of AMT and CVT's the first thing which came to my mind is that the power loss due to friction and heat dissipation can be putting CVT's one step back compared to AMT's

What is your view ?
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Old 9th June 2015, 12:40   #572
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

Having driven a Zen A/T many years ago, and then graduated through a series of economy cars to my current Rapid, I have two observations:

1. It is possible that the quality of the A/T impacts one's experience and preference. The Zen A/T was a pretty bad 3 speed transmission, and that put me off A/Ts quite thoroughly

2. The quality of the M/T also impacts one's experience and preference. When previously driving my Spark and WagonR, changing gears was a chore not really enjoyed.

My previous experience with some other cars (including a Cielo) were a mix of good and bad now that I look back. The Rapid has a special gearbox (petrol, and please refer to my limited experience to qualify my opinion), and a fairly light clutch. I don't mind traffic much when driving these days.

Just yesterday I drove from Koramangala to Indiranagar in the evening - took me over an hour and a half to cover that distance, but with the music and AC on it was fine.

An A/T would definitely have made life easier, but sometimes one doesn't want that. It isn't so much the control but the involvement that draws some drivers to M/Ts over A/Ts, in my opinion.

PS. I also have driven a very good regular 5 speed Nissan Cedric (2.4 4cyl diesel) and a steering column mounted 4 speed Nissan Cedric (2.8 6cyl diesel), but that was a while ago and I didn't really have too much experience then to understand the niceties of the gearbox beyond finding that changing gears in the Omni that I transitioned to next was really tough!

Last edited by VeluM : 9th June 2015 at 12:42.
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Old 9th June 2015, 13:05   #573
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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Originally Posted by JediKnight View Post
Having considerable experience driving automatics that too some of the best in the world i can say that with complete conviction nothing beats a nice slick manual.

In the USA where every body is forced to drive including your grandmother the market has to adjust to the least common denominator of driving skills which is the automatic.In Europe which is more "mature" auto market than USA manuals still call the shots.
I wouldn't agree with the usage of the word "mature" here. If mature markets drove manuals, you are automatically implying that the Indian auto market is mature because here most drive manuals.

So transmission choice have nothing to do with maturity of the market. Here it is purely an economic decision dictated by the cost of the vehicle and cost of running. Every other claim is just an attempt to justify their choice.
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Old 9th June 2015, 14:39   #574
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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Originally Posted by VeluM View Post

1. It is possible that the quality of the A/T impacts one's experience and preference. The Zen A/T was a pretty bad 3 speed transmission, and that put me off A/Ts quite thoroughly
This is a very relevant point I feel. I own a Brio A/T and love it for my daily commute. Though I value convenience greatly over performance and driving pleasure but if the A/T car is sluggish and feels like flogging a bullock cart I would never prefer that.

I had test driven i10 A/T and it was really slow off the blocks and put me off A/T until i drove Brio
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Old 9th June 2015, 15:17   #575
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Oh my my, it was fun to read some comments like "manual transmission gives me control over the vehicle, and automatic snatches that away".

Okay fellows, how many of you are ready to buy a vehicle where you have total control over everything? Like say fuel injection. YOU determine how much fuel should be metered in, you determine how much air flow should be there, you determine the best sparking moment, you determine the best valve opening and closing timings.
You have the full control over the engine!
Didn't vintage cars have a timing control? Bring that back?

AT and manual is a choice and it should never be made into a versus. Some people just enjoy the process of changing gear. Some people who enjoy changing the gears on a twisty, hilly road, also find the eternal 1st-2nd-1st cycle of congested city driving to be infinitely tedious. Maybe it is a matter of both horses for courses and courses for horses!

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Originally Posted by SchumiFan View Post
While I agree the control point has been overstated but it is true to an extent.

I wrote a comment earlier about how Brio felt powerful enough for these roads but it was searching for a gear when I wanted to put in a quick overtake.

One is left at the mercy of the transmission to decide when the power is available to you. In manual, if the engine lugs, we can downshift immediately and get going. Difficult to do it if you are not equipped with tiptronic mechanism in the Automatics we drive.

That said, it is not a problem one always faces and they will be able to work around it if they adapt themselves. The smaller engine blocks in our country also contribute to the issue. But the convenience of the Automatics is unmatched.

I drove a 4 speed 3L V6 Avalon while in the US. The downshift would give such a huge boost that it can oversee any difficult situations. Not possible here, I only got a revved engine note and stayed in the same place
In many ways, modern AT boxes give us the best of both worlds. I used to regard my very ancient (original-model) Civic as a manual without a clutch, as, left in "D" it would 0-30 in half an hour, despite having quite a perky engine. In my much much later Rover (British-built Accord) I felt that Honda had still not dealt with the fact that their hydraulic torque converter was like a power sponge. I felt that it degraded a decent 2.0 engine to something more like half that. And it regularly gave me the experience you describe with the Avalon. Just when I needed a burst of speed joining traffic from a slip road, all it did was change down. Frustrating, and potentially dangerous.

But the world has moved on. It is over ten years since I watched Clarkson reporting that he could not beat the auto (I think it was an Audi; maybe early DSG; memory fails) acceleration with manual gear change; it gave better figures every time.

These days, auto gear boxes from different manufacturers have different facilities, from simple 1-2-D, to sports modes, to manual selection and paddle shifts. It is a different world. Many of the people who say they would never drive an AT have probably never tried it ---or, can't afford the vehicles that come with the really advanced stuff.

This thread is destined to go around in circles. This is partly because of the brrm-brrm macho aspect of car loving, which is not a criticism, there is nothing wrong with enjoying driving, it's what this site is about, but it does sometimes lead to an only-one-way-to-get-satisfaction viewpoint. There are two (or more!) ways: it's a free choice

Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 9th June 2015 at 15:19.
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Old 9th June 2015, 16:40   #576
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Oh my my, it was fun to read some comments like "manual transmission gives me control over the vehicle, and automatic snatches that away".

Okay fellows, how many of you are ready to buy a vehicle where you have total control over everything? Like say fuel injection. YOU determine how much fuel should be metered in, you determine how much air flow should be there, you determine the best sparking moment, you determine the best valve opening and closing timings.
You have the full control over the engine!
Honestly, I am one of those who believes in manual transmissions. I don't know about everyone else, but all I can say to you after reading your snide comment, is that if you have never driven on a twisty road, rev-matched down from 3rd to 2nd and used a manual transmission and throttle inputs to dictate weight transfer to allow you to carve a corner in the swiftest most smoothest manner possible while at the same time being able to experience some high g forces, then I'm sorry but you may never get the point. It really does allow you to dance on the limits of traction unlike any automatic car can. Supercars with advanced electronic systems and automated dampers aside.

I do see the convenience in automatics and that doesn't lead me to demand everyone to hire a chauffeur. I am not against you amassing a garage filled with automatics for that matter. Instead of sitting at your computer coming up with smart-ass comments, the more relevant question would be to ask how many of us here, have actually driven a car quick enough to appreciate MT? I am not talking about taking your car to the O.R.R. to test its top speed after buying it, I am talking about track experience and training that allows you to test your car's limits especially when it comes to attacking corners or any other deviations the path takes on an XYZ axis. If you are a true enthusiast and you can't appreciate the joy of a manual transmission under certain circumstances merely because you haven't been able to experience it or perhaps was just too blind towards it, then I pity you.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 9th June 2015 at 16:58.
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Old 9th June 2015, 16:55   #577
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My family is an AT infested family, with all cars, even in my extended family being automatics. Infact i learnt driving on an automatic. But being the crazy petrolhead in the family, i was craving to drive a manual tranny, inspired by all the fast and furious movies 😂. So my first car had to be an MT, just because i wanted one. After driving all different kinds of ATs, from the CVT in the Audi A4, to the DCT in the E Class, the regular TC in the honda city and i10, driving a manual is absolutely crazy for me. Its probably new for me, and hence im so biased. So let me enjoy the honeymoon period and enjoy my MT
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Old 9th June 2015, 17:14   #578
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Oh my my, it was fun to read some comments like "manual transmission gives me control over the vehicle, and automatic snatches that away".

Okay fellows, how many of you are ready to buy a vehicle where you have total control over everything? Like say fuel injection. YOU determine how much fuel should be metered in, you determine how much air flow should be there, you determine the best sparking moment, you determine the best valve opening and closing timings.
You have the full control over the engine!
When can I get one??? That will be my car of dreams, every enthusiast's dream. Not claiming to be better than all the automotive design engineers in the world, but I can boldly say that given such an option, I can tweak the machine to match my preferences. And the transmission too, I get to play with the gear ratios.

In general the discussion is divergent. The AT folks predominantly rely on convenience and dense traffic as motivating factor for their choice along with some concern for their joints and limbs. The MT faction don't mind these and tend towards what happens in the open roads where control over the machine gives a different nirvana. The common ground is the crowded road which is equally hated by the two sides. Fun to read how a poll about why a choice is be made became a debate.
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Old 9th June 2015, 18:00   #579
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Honestly, I am one of those who believes in manual transmissions. I don't know about everyone else, but all I can say to you after reading your snide comment, is that if you have never driven on a twisty road, rev-matched down from 3rd to 2nd and used a manual transmission and throttle inputs to dictate weight transfer to allow you to carve a corner in the swiftest most smoothest manner possible while at the same time being able to experience some high g forces, then I'm sorry but you may never get the point. It really does allow you to dance on the limits of traction unlike any automatic car can. Supercars with advanced electronic systems and automated dampers aside.

I do see the convenience in automatics and that doesn't lead me to demand everyone to hire a chauffeur. I am not against you amassing a garage filled with automatics for that matter. Instead of sitting at your computer coming up with smart-ass comments, the more relevant question would be to ask how many of us here, have actually driven a car quick enough to appreciate MT? I am not talking about taking your car to the O.R.R. to test its top speed after buying it, I am talking about track experience and training that allows you to test your car's limits especially when it comes to attacking corners or any other deviations the path takes on an XYZ axis. If you are a true enthusiast and you can't appreciate the joy of a manual transmission under certain circumstances merely because you haven't been able to experience it or perhaps was just too blind towards it, then I pity you.
Well, you could really disagree with people like us without introducing a hostile tone into the message. People who are speaking against manuals do not intend to take away the "manual" choice from you. I think we all can coexist.

Your definition of an enthusiast borders on the extreme side, and honestly, in a country like ours, we don't have the resources (money, road, traffic etc) for people like us to be extreme-enthusiasts every minute we spend at the wheel. People who drive automatics are enthusiasts enough.

Most people who buy MTs here do it because they are cheaper. Had ATs been cheaper, the same people would have been asking why somebody should pay more to move a stick up and down.
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Old 9th June 2015, 18:09   #580
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
This thread is destined to go around in circles. This is partly because of the brrm-brrm macho aspect of car loving, which is not a criticism, there is nothing wrong with enjoying driving, it's what this site is about, but it does sometimes lead to an only-one-way-to-get-satisfaction viewpoint. There are two (or more!) ways: it's a free choice
@E Ginathom I couldn't have agreed with you more. Like you've said there really is more than one way to approach a situation. Just because someone prefers an autobox doesn't make that person any less of an enthusiast. And specially with modern day autoboxes there's a great chance of an autobox outdoing a manual tranny.

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Originally Posted by sun_king View Post
In general the discussion is divergent. The AT folks predominantly rely on convenience and dense traffic as motivating factor for their choice along with some concern for their joints and limbs. The MT faction don't mind these and tend towards what happens in the open roads where control over the machine gives a different nirvana. The common ground is the crowded road which is equally hated by the two sides. Fun to read how a poll about why a choice is be made became a debate.
What would you say about people who choose a gt-tsi not for the convenience it offers, but better performance.
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Old 9th June 2015, 18:33   #581
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

Its an age old debate this, Manual Vs. Automatic. For a majority of Indians buying an AT car is not really a question of affordability. Its just that, they think that they don't really need it. There is also a certain unknown element about it. Recently my Father in law was looking to buy a new car and I told him to look at Automatics, even offered him to drive my i10 AT or my Polo DSG. He thinks AT cars are more complex machines that will require more attention and the standard 'it drinks more fuel' problem. His old swift has not done 10,000 kms in the past 6 years!! He was not even ready to look at an AT option although it suited him to a T.

It will need a few years for word of mouth recommendations to spread in our social circles with more and more people discovering the ease of driving AT cars. I see AT cars dominating our personal car market in a few years, with MT cars depending on the taxi business. MT cars vanished from the 30L + segment long back. Its only a matter of time before it happens across the board.

As for myself, I have an AT and MT car in my garage. I miss the convenience of the AT when driving the MT and miss the connect and pure driving experience of the MT when driving the AT.
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Old 9th June 2015, 18:50   #582
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Well, you could really disagree with people like us without introducing a hostile tone into the message. People who are speaking against manuals do not intend to take away the "manual" choice from you. I think we all can coexist.

Your definition of an enthusiast borders on the extreme side, and honestly, in a country like ours, we don't have the resources (money, road, traffic etc) for people like us to be extreme-enthusiasts every minute we spend at the wheel. People who drive automatics are enthusiasts enough.

Most people who buy MTs here do it because they are cheaper. Had ATs been cheaper, the same people would have been asking why somebody should pay more to move a stick up and down.
I completely agree with you. As I said, I have no qualms against those who choose to own an automatic. I would not mind an automatic either if I could afford loads of cars and spare a couple for dedicated city use. Not at all calling the invention of the automatic transmission useless because I can perfectly understand its advantages nor am I arguing that automatics are not well suited to the vast majority of the population. However, I said, if being an enthusiast, one cannot also appreciate a manual, then it is simply sad. I had quoted someone whose post served no other purpose than to belittle the comments others had made about the level of control a manual gearbox offers. This I found to be really ridiculous and highly ignorant. It is like me quoting all the AT fans and telling them to go one step ahead for convenience and ease of use by hiring a chauffeur. Sorry if I am the only one who was offended by alpha1's comment.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 9th June 2015 at 18:55.
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Old 9th June 2015, 19:16   #583
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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What would you say about people who choose a gt-tsi not for the convenience it offers, but better performance.
You had to choose the one model that does not have a petrol MT variant with a turbocharged engine, did you?

But i did use the word "predominant", right? No one is denying the gains in performance that some of the modern automatics deliver, but that was not the deciding factor for most of the folks who posted here. If you do a rough count, the AT decision was mainly made because of our road conditions and consequent discomforts of stressing the body in prolonged stop-go "drives".

The GT-TSI is a different beast, and honestly it was one of my choices for my next vehicle (went against it because at that time it had a waiting period of 16-18 months and even the test drive was possible only 5-6 months after booking the car). But more than the transmission, it was the engine and ESP that lured me.
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Old 9th June 2015, 22:57   #584
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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Originally Posted by sun_king View Post
When can I get one??? That will be my car of dreams, every enthusiast's dream. Not claiming to be better than all the automotive design engineers in the world, but I can boldly say that given such an option, I can tweak the machine to match my preferences. And the transmission too, I get to play with the gear ratios.
You can probably never get one as standard production model. You can however, have one custom-built. The only problem is, you will need half a dozen arms and legs to operate such a car. Lighten up guys! Let us keep it witty and humorous. No swearing please.
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Old 10th June 2015, 00:15   #585
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Default Re: So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

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Originally Posted by thehighwayman View Post
What is the Fuel Economy of your car ?
Though it might be outside the scope of this thread, but a short answer nevertheless.

When measured tank to tank it is 10-11 kmpl (normal petrol). Almost 95% of usage is for short distances - daily office commute of 6 KM, to the market (~4/5 - 10KM) etc.

Now for FE on longer runs, on the recent run to the airport (~50km) the MID showed 15.4. The only long distance run I have done is BLR-Pondicherry and on that run (~440 km) the MID showed 17.7.
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