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Old 16th December 2011, 19:59   #16
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Default re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

Well researched and put together!

I was looking for something like this list for a quite a while and this aids my research a lot. Having owned a Fiat and suffered for it, I find it amusing and surprising that after the Fabia and the Polo, the Punto has a lot of features that makes it very attractive on paper. Sadly, the A/S/S seems to blow it off....

Thank you for such a detailed comparison.
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Old 17th December 2011, 22:32   #17
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Default re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

I would request everyone to read my complete post, not just the excel sheet and then only make informed comments. Please find below an excerpt from my original post, which clearly explains the reason behind inclusion & exclusion of certain models – please note that this is based solely on the criteria decided by me and it is my personal choice – rest the excel sheet mentions all facts only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessie007 View Post
Inclusion of some models & exclusion of others are solely on my personal criteria for comparison – so the Liva & Brio are included but not the Beat, Ritz or i10. I feel the Brio & Liva straddle between B & B+ segments and also there is the novelty factor as they are new entrants in the market. Liva has B+ segment rivaling passenger space and a decent boot capacity (251 litres). On the other hand, the Brio has the most powerful petrol engine in its class and has decent amount of passenger space, though the boot is tiny (only 175 litres as compared to say i10 which has 225 litres & Ritz which has 236 litres – But then the Swift & Vista also have a tiny boot, at 204 & 232 litres respectively). It is to be noted that both Liva & Brio lack the premium factor that is expected in a B+ segment car. By including Liva & Brio, one model from all small car manufacturers is covered, barring GM. The Aveo U-VA is not included as it is on its last legs and is going to be replaced with a new model. Honda Jazz isn’t included as the price of the base model is 5 lakhs plus, whereas the range in the comparison is 3.7-4.6 lakhs for petrol and 4.6-5.7 lakhs for diesel (ex-showroom Delhi).
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Further to elaborate on the Jazz, I would like to state some more facts which would make it perfectly clear why Jazz is in a niche segment (please check table below). Agreed Jazz has more features including Airbags & ABD even in the base variant, which the entry level sedans don’t have. Honda is trying to offer a car equipped with safety features (which is indeed very good) and without these features they can launch a cheaper variant. But if we compare variants with Airbags & ABS, then the Jazz is indeed very competitive and the Jazz is a very attractive offering. But then the basis of my original comparison is base variants only, so let’s stick to it.

I personally feel that Jazz is the only hatchback (with its space and practicality) that can completely replace a sedan.

But, frankly Honda lost all its credibility/aura the day it slashed City’s price by 50k (and further by another 50k in the last few days) and the Jazz by a whopping 1.5 lakhs – and I believe at the current prices they still would be making a healthy profit. Honda is a good automobile manufacturer, but it is not a God, as made by the brand blind Indian public – this has been proven by the healthy competition now, which has made people to think beyond Honda. Don’t we as consumers like a healthy competition?

But the point I’m trying to make is that most people prefer a sedan in the 6 lakh price range – be it Jazz, Polo, i20, Fabia or Punto.

P.S.
- I have started work on another price range based comparison that includes only premium hatchbacks, including the Jazz.
- Just noted on Skoda’s website, the Airbag in Fabia’s base variant has been removed – so will amend in my excel sheet accordingly and ask mods to replace the old sheet.
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Old 17th December 2011, 23:18   #18
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Default re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

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Originally Posted by jessie007 View Post
I personally feel that Jazz is the only hatchback (with its space and practicality) that can completely replace a sedan.
Am in full agreement with you over here. At times -- and an excellent recent Bangalore-Goa travelogue by Suhaas307 will attest this -- the Jazz has even exceeded the space and practicality of a sedan.

These were his words in the first post of his thread:

"The obvious negative that kept the Civic in the fight was that the Jazz had a small boot, in comparison. Or so we thought. We were in for a real shock. A day before the drive, we took our suitcases and stuffed them into the Civic. It took about 15 minutes to squeeze, stuff and adjust the bags in the Civic's boot. After wrestling them out of the boot, we decided to pop the Jazz's boot open and see what we could do. In just 2 minutes, we had the bags neatly arranged in the boot and there was space for a few more knick-knacks too!

The Jazz 350 liter boot gobbled up our bags with ease, despite being a good 50-70 liters lesser than the Civic's, in terms of sheer volume. It's all because of the fantastically packaged and designed interior and boot of the Jazz."


Source: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travel...ml#post2535434 (The Road To the Sea. Bangalore - Goa - Bangalore. Again!)

Would have preferred, however, if you had included the i10 and the Ritz as well. But, you have clearly mentioned that you have excluded it due to personal preferences and that's fine.
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Old 19th December 2011, 18:41   #19
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Default re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

Jessie while I appreciate the hard work that has gone into the thread, the exclusion of key players like Beat and Jazz is befuddling to say the least. Pity, this could have been quite THE thread for people shopping in this segment otherwise.
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Old 19th December 2011, 19:55   #20
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Default re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
Jessie while I appreciate the hard work that has gone into the thread, the exclusion of key players like Beat and Jazz is befuddling to say the least. Pity, this could have been quite THE thread for people shopping in this segment otherwise.
+1 to that.

The person is ready to find the tiniest of details in the features list but didn't bother give the thread proper TITLE and that is where problem lies. So many people can't be wrong at the same time. What is the criteria of B and B+ segment, is it price, engine capacity, dimensions of the car or something we don't know.
I had also mentioned in my earlier post that this thread will grow bigger but disappointed to see so less replies. May be because this thread is still in process of growing more comprehensive. Bring in more popular cars which are left out and this thread will be the "must visit" for people shopping for base variants in Hatbacks.
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Old 20th December 2011, 21:52   #21
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Default re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

@noopster & @carwatcher


Although the basis of my comparison is based on my personal selection criteria, still I have been able to quantify the same regarding Beat & Ritz. Regarding Jazz, I have already given a veritable explanation. For me the points of consideration in this comparison are based on three main factors in the following order (price being the external, but influential factor):

1) Space (and the feeling of space) – Passenger & then boot
2) Engine power
3) Features

You can see from the following comparison that in the space and the feeling of space criteria only, these vehicles do not deserve a whole-hearted inclusion. My basis of comparison for space is wheelbase (not the car's length) and rear interior width (not the car's width), plus there is the boot space.

Also, please note that Beat & Ritz, don’t have any premium/unique redeeming features in their base versions to warrant an inclusion. For those who doubt the inclusion of Brio, Micra & Figo (e.g. @suhaas307): The Micra for instance has driver’s Airbag as standard, the Brio has an Eco light & Lights-on and Key-in reminder and not to forget a powerful engine; and the Figo has a feelsome & handling-friendly hydraulic steering wheel, plus the most bang for the buck in terms of passenger and boot space – in which car can you get decent passenger space and a 284 litre boot for just 3.75 odd lakhs (ex-showroom Delhi)?

Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks-hereyougo.jpg

Acknowledgement: Rear Interior Width, Rear Seat Legroom, 0-100, 20-80 & 40-100kmph times have been taken from Auto Car India magazine.

Also we cannot forget the prestige/premium factor as well, which we get in say the Punto even with a less powerful engine (just 67BHP 1.2 petrol, but good low end torque), but the diesel variants more than makes up for it – which is there in the Ritz also, but the Beat on the other hand has a very small capacity 3-cylinder diesel engine (just 58.5 BHP). In case of the Figo, the big car feel (passenger & boot space) alongwith its acclaimed ride & handling characteristics give it the edge and the license to enter this comparison, again with just a 70BHP 1.2 petrol engine.


I have nothing against the Beat or the Ritz. I personally like the Beat for its funky exterior and interiors (and fairly powerful petrol engine 79 BHP), but then this will appeal to a younger crowd, and the Beat doesn’t have any premium feel about it. I also like the Ritz (which is disliked by most) – I would put it this way – I would be happy if all the boxy Wagon-Rs are replaced with the funky looking Ritz – someone has dared to do something different. I myself had once sketched a car like Ritz during school going days.

There is no end to this debate and anyways I feel we are digressing from the main purpose of the thread (and as it is I’m working on another comparison based on certain price band, not variants, so that the Jazz also gets its due consideration). I essentially want buyers to take an informed decision, based on a list of features, not available anywhere in a consolidated form. @carwatcher - Even if the number of replies are not increasing – atleast people are viewing this thread for the useful information it offers and I feel it is serving its purpose.


On a lighter note, @carwatcher what are “hatbacks”? A new segment? - maybe B-

Last edited by jessie007 : 20th December 2011 at 21:59.
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Old 20th December 2011, 22:03   #22
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Default re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessie007 View Post

Although the basis of my comparison is based on my personal selection criteria, still I have been able to quantify the same regarding Beat & Ritz. Regarding Jazz, I have already given a veritable explanation. For me the points of consideration in this comparison are based on three main factors in the following order (price being the external, but influential factor):

1) Space (and the feeling of space) – Passenger & then boot
2) Engine power
3) Features

You can see from the following comparison that in the space and the feeling of space criteria only, these vehicles do not deserve a whole-hearted inclusion. My basis of comparison for space is wheelbase (not the car's length) and rear interior width (not the car's width), plus there is the boot space.
I'm sorry, Sir. But I still don't get it.

Space: The Jazz is by far, THE MOST spacious hatchback in India. About as spacious as the City sedan, and a 350 liter boot!

Engine Power: The Jazz's 1.2 makes 90 horses and the Brio makes 88 with the same engine. And yet, the Brio has been included but the Jazz has been omitted.

Features: The Jazz does not have auto-climate-control or auto-fold OVRMs, but it has everything else!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessie007 View Post
Also, please note that Beat & Ritz, don’t have any premium/unique redeeming features in their base versions to warrant an inclusion.
The Beat and Ritz do not feel premium enough. But at the same time, you don't want a premium hatchback that's anything more than 5.5 lakhs? (despite including the Polo, Fabia and the Punto.. all of which are above 5.5 on the road in some form of trim)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessie007 View Post
For those who doubt the inclusion of Brio, Micra & Figo (e.g. @suhaas307): The Micra for instance has driver’s Airbag as standard, the Brio has an Eco light & Lights-on and Key-in reminder and not to forget a powerful engine;
So the basis of inclusion of the Brio, Micra and the Figo is the Eco-light, driver's airbag and a hydraulic power-assisted-steering wheel, respectively? But the Jazz is omitted, despite ticking all the boxes that you have mentioned, including space, power and features?
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Old 21st December 2011, 18:25   #23
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Default re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

@suhaas007

The more I would like to concentrate on the original idea of the thread, the more divergence I’m getting. O.K. here once and for all I would like to end the Jazz debate. Please read the post carefully and completely, as there are some logical but analytical aspects to it. I would like to present only facts and no loose talk, so that comparison is fair and easier – otherwise space and (usable) power are quite subjective. Please go through the table below. Important points to note, my discerning assumptions (individual views may differ, so to each his own):

1) Price and value for money are an important criteria while buying cars and this is especially true in case of hatchbacks and entry-level sedans. If price was not a criteria then Jazz would be selling better than other hatchbacks. Even all the sedans listed in this comparison sell substantially more than the Jazz (even after 1.5 lakhs price cut, that must have made people who bought Jazz earlier feel short-changed and cheated) – one can refer to the monthly car sales figures threads by GTO.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-analysis.html (November 2011 : Indian Car Sales & Analysis)

I’m aware about the production constraints being faced by Honda due to the earthquake in Japan and floods in Thailand from where some components are sourced – even without these constraints, I don’t think the Jazz will sell substantially more.

2) Around 70% of people drive within the city only, and with speeds seldom exceeding 60kmph between 8A.M. to 9P.M. in a city like Delhi. Safety is an important concept in more developed countries, but people in India generally don’t give precedence to safety features such as Airbags & ABS considering the speeds we are able to reach in cities. This opens up a lot of choices for them - feature rich higher variants of other hatchbacks (not necessarily the top end ones as they can do without the Airbags and ABS) and entry level sedans. So safety features and power/acceleration are not necessarily crucial factors while choosing a hatch.

3) Most of the time not more than two people travel in a hatch or a sedan – for them space is not a make or break deal. Occasionally when the whole nuclear family is travelling there are the parents and two children at most, who can be fairly comfortable in even a spacious Nano for that matter. Bigger/joint families usually prefer a sedan or a MUV/SUV, if they are able to afford it, else there is the fairly spacious Omni & Eeco vans. So all the space available in the Jazz, is usually not of utility on a daily basis, for a majority of people, which is reflected in its sales.

4) Sedans (3 box cars) still have a slightly higher status/prestige value vis-à-vis hatchbacks (especially boxy ones) in the minds of majority of Indians

5) One can get safety features (Airbags and ABS) in other hatchbacks in similar price range (excluding the pricey Polo). Agreed you won’t get as much space in them.

Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks-facts.jpg

Table analysis

1) I have calculated the percentage price variation in all cars listed above Jazz. One can see that the Jazz commands a 20% (which comes to almost one lakh rupees) premium over the i20 & Polo, which are the most expensive cars in that lot. Please remember as per the thread we are comparing base variants only and the prices for all are ex-showroom Delhi.

2) In the category after Jazz, I’ve compared price difference vis-à-vis the Jazz. Jazz is even more expensive than sedans like the Dzire, Etios and Manza – which have equally powerful engines and a bigger boot (comparing petrol variants only). Agreed Airbags and ABS are not there in the base variants of these sedans.

3) If you talk about passenger space, then the Manza and Sunny with their substantially longer wheelbase, better the Jazz (please also check the front & rear Seat Legroom figures in Auto Car India magazine – even the Indigo CS is more spacious on these parameters). Plus both have a bigger boot as well. Please note here, that Jazz is being compared to sedans, which is a lot to say about the Jazz – it is a positive aspect for the Jazz. In that sense Jazz makes for a good Taxi, but it doesn’t have even that privilege, due to the absence for a diesel engine.

The figures of “Rear Interior Width” have been taken from ACI magazine which I believe is the most respectable and accurate among the lot, though not always fair. I was shocked that the Jazz is not as spacious widthwise on the inside as on the outside. Here you can see that all other cars, even Jazz’s own cousin the Brio is more spacious width-wise on the inside rear seats.

4) There is an option of a diesel variant as well in all other hatchbacks (excluding Brio) and sedans, which fairly limits the Jazz’s appeal, considering the current price difference between Petrol and Diesel and the higher fuel efficiency given by diesel engines. Diesel variants suit people who do a lot of mile-munching. Sale of diesel variants account for a sizable sales percentage out of the total number of units sold (varies from car to car). In mileage terms also Jazz is no great shakes as it can be seen clearly in the table and these are ARAI figures and therefore again a fact.

Honda (Jazz) is Good, but not God

I won’t be replying to any other inclusion/exclusion (of a car in the comparison) based comments as I feel I have justified everything and that also based on facts and supporting data alongwith discerning assumptions, and not because I’m loyal to any brand. Jazz doesn't make the cut for me in this base variant features comparison. In the end it is my thread and I can express to present my view and facts in whatever way I like or deem suitable.

P.S. I would like to tell you that in the other price band based features comparison of hatchbacks I’m working on, Jazz is not really coming out on tops or really standing out, as its competitors are fairly feature rich. In fact, I just found out that the Jazz doesn’t even come with as basic a feature as a Parcel shelf/tray in its base variant – a glaring omission.
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Old 27th December 2011, 14:52   #24
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Default Re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

Thread moved back to the Indian Car Scene forum.
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Old 27th December 2011, 15:03   #25
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Default Re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessie007 View Post
@suhaas007



Honda (Jazz) is Good, but not God
IMO Honda Jazz is an excellent car. My views are hugely divergent to yours for certain facts. The most important being that you are comparing parts of Jazz with those offered by different cars.

Example: Space in Jazz with Indica/ Manza
Engine with some other car. Etc etc.

An apple to apple comparison would tell you that Jazz is way ahead in the class irrespective of the price premium its asks for.

I have been wanting to buy a Jazz (and others in my office), but Honda (very bad) isn't able to sell the numbers.

As far as bashing it for being pricey when compared to sedans, I must tell you that such comparison isn't even valid. There is no rule book that says a Sedan should be more expensive than a hatchback.

For getting the price standards right, just check price of Jazz in markets abroad. You would see that it indeed sells in good numbers and is priced alongside sedans.
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Old 29th December 2011, 18:05   #26
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Default Re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

Please also refer to a new continuation/variant thread, in which I have compared Features of select Hatchbacks in the price range Rs.4.70-5.55 (P) & 5.70-6.55 (D) lakhs and this comparison includes the following cars and variants:

1) Skoda Fabia (1.2 P & D)
2) Ford Figo (1.2 P / 1.4 D)
3) Fiat Grande Punto (1.2 P / 1.3 D)
4) Hyundai i20 (1.2 P / 1.4 D)
5) Honda Jazz (1.2 P)
6) Nissan Micra (1.2 P / 1.5 D)
7) VW Polo (1.2 P & D)
8) Maruti Suzuki Swift (1.2 P / 1.3 D)
9) Tata Indica Vista (1.2 P / 1.3 D)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...5-d-lakhs.html
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Old 11th January 2012, 15:47   #27
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Default Re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

Hi there,

As per your request, this thread has been moved to the Assembly Line. My apologies about the late response.
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Old 1st February 2012, 18:02   #28
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Default Re: Base variant FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks

Thread moved to the Assembly Line as requested.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 20:27   #29
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Default Now the comparison includes Sail U-VA as well

The comparison now includes the latest entrant - Chevrolet Sail U-VA as well. Plus prices and features in refresh variants have also been updated.
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