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Old 9th November 2012, 23:19   #181
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

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Old 10th November 2012, 01:17   #182
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

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Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post
Agreed there is body roll in the Xylo. But my point was in answering seating 6 people in comfort. Have you travelled in an Aria? I'm no fan of Aria, or Tata, but I was bowled over by its space and comfort. Just a case in point: the last row in my Ertiga is more comfortable to seat 2 people than an Innova.
Body roll is not a a major factor in comfort in my view. If you read my post I have mentioned that I have test driven the Aria extensively. The last row in Aria is good enough only for kids - period. The second row - bench to bench comparison, the Aria is better but if one compares the captain seats, the Innova is better. Anyway, the Innova outsells the Aria 20 times so nothing more to add here. Also, you mention in your last message that Aria is 50% cheaper than the Innova - I am yet to understand how?

Finally, the backrest of Ertiga leave a lot to be desired for me at least. I test drove the Ertiga 3 times and while it is easier to drive compared to the Innova, I dont think the comfort in the last seat can be compared. If what you say is correct, you will find cabbies shifting en masse to Ertiga, what with its 50% higher mileage and 40% lower price. Not seen that yet either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post
Again, agreed the plastics are good and well put together. But does that justify the premium Toyota charges? Have you been in a Skoda Yeti that's similarly priced to the Innova? Check out the plastics in that.
Have you seen the space on offer in Yeti inside...It is not a 8 seater so cant compare. Also, toyota brand and service is very different from Skoda.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post

Honestly I didn't get what you mean here!? Reliable even before they have rolled out of the showroom? So you don't do a PDI if you're buying an Innova?

Yes, the top end of Xylo costs 9.5 lac in Chennai. The top end of Innova costs 17 lac in Chennai. Have I mentioned the feature list of top end of Xylo compared to the top end of Innova? Go figure!
Yes, Toyota production system has done away with Inspection based quality control - that in effect means PDIs are not very useful. And yes, PDIs will not reveal much when you are out to purchase a Toyota. I didnt spend much time on mine either.

As for prices the Xylo costs as below in Hyderabad - per carwale..so it is about 20% cheaper than the top end Innova (16.9 lakhs in Hyderabad)..that's it. Dont know where you got the 50% number from..unless the govt gives it a subsidy in Chennai?

Mahindra Xylo 2012 E9


On-Road Price Quote #34891453

Ex-Showroom Hyderabad 10,52,333 (A) RTO 1,55,327 (B) Insurance 41,518 (C) On Road Price 12,49,178



Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post
In a cost sensitive market like India, the fact that Innova is cheaper than Corolla is a very poor sales pitch! May I ask what is upmarket about the Innova? Leather interiors? Lounge lighting like the XUV? Classy dashboard with MID in the instrument cluster? Auto-fold mirrors? Just one look at that all grey interior tells you this vehicle began its life as a truck. Utilitarian? Yes! Upmarket? No! Don't believe me? Check out the gear stick for starters or the 1970's pull-out type radiio antenna!
Features that are useful and reliable are a good thing to have. I have only seen quite a few niggles and honestly, rarely anything classy in a Xylo so I dont see any value in that..quality always will demand a premium and IMHO I like features that work even three years later. Also to answer some of you points.. The Innova VX does have MID and does not have grey interiors..don't know where you get your data points from

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post
True, Toyota holds a certain premium image in India and the taxi market is no different. The Toyota badge makes them charge that bit more from a travelling customer. As I already mentioned, I'm in NO way taking away the best bits of buying an Innova. But are there alternatives that a "non brand snob" buyer can look into? Definitely, yes!
I meant that Toyota has priced it on a more value basis, at least compared to the Corolla. Even if it is the most premium priced, in a heavily cost sensitive market..and still outsells the competitors. And you say it doesn't offer value...it either means the market is not cost conscious or the consumers dont know how to make the right descision...I can't understand any of that.

Last edited by Buffetfan : 10th November 2012 at 01:26.
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Old 10th November 2012, 12:42   #183
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

First of all, sorry guys there was a mistake in typing from me. I intended to put a ';' after Xylo and not a (,). So yes I totally agree Xylo has more than adequate space to seat 6. But I have come to understand that space is not a sufficient condition for passenger comfort. Comfort in a vehicle, IMO, is an optimal combination of : ride quality + low body roll + space (cabin + seats) + low levels of NVH. In my opinion this is best achieved in an Innova and by good margin. (And I say this after having owned 2 Safaris back to back since 2004. Safari is widely acknowledged for its space and ride quality)

I also said that Aria is not a 6 seater. I say that from my own point of view. I am 6 ft (on top of that I wear a turban) and I have traveled an inter city distance of 170kms while seated in the last row of my Innova. And it was not a bad place to be at all. I agree, the fact that I opted for captain seats in the middle and these seats can be pulled forward individually, did help in making the last row seats comfortable for me. But the point is the Innova did accommodate 6 healthy individuals and proved to be comfortable to all of them over a rather longish journey on average roads.

This ergonomic, was not perceived by me when I test drove the Aria. I am very confident when I say that its last row seat is just for kids. I spent a lot of time finding a comfortable position for my self while perched on its last row, but I just couldn't.

@swiftdiesel reliability of a vehicle is a controversial topic, and different peope have different takes on it. The Safari that I just sold, ran for 1.3 lakh kms without ANY issue. And the Safari that I had before the last one, ran more than 2 lac kms without issues. But will I label Safari as a reliable product. Earnestly, I hesitate to say so. Because whenever I have been to a TASS, I have also found a percentage of people lamenting about the issues that plagued their Safaris. But I can confidently say that Innova is among the most reliable vehicles. because apart from my own experience, I am yet to speak to a disgruntled owner of an Innova. And you can check that out if you visit a Toyota dealerhip. The dealerships maintains a daily log of the amount of time they take to service a vehicle. The dealership in Jalandhar says that their average time of servicing an Innova is much lower than what is prescribed by Toyota. And I certainly am a testament to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdiesel View Post
Am I missing something here? I've personally travelled in a Xylo and Aria, both fully packed and it was extremely comfortable! We didn't miss the Innova's seating one bit in either of these cars! And what do you mean by finesse and reliability? If you mean reliability in terms of mileage, I can personally show you Xylos that have run 3 lac plus kilometres without an overhaul. Also, the fact that the Xylo and Aria is available at nearly 50% of the Innova's price makes it a good deal! I give in to the fact that Innova is a good MPV but anything beyond that is mere hype. Things have changed these 7 years since Innova was launched and there are more worthy competitors who don't milk customers of their money like Toyota.

Last edited by GTO : 12th November 2012 at 11:44. Reason: Quoted post deleted
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Old 10th November 2012, 12:55   #184
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
I also said that Aria is not a 6 seater. I say that from my own point of view. I am 6 ft (on top of that I wear a turban) and I have traveled an inter city distance of 170kms while seated in the last row of my Innova. And it was not a bad place to be at all. I agree, the fact that I opted for captain seats in the middle and these seats can be pulled forward individually, did help in making the last row seats comfortable for me. But the point is the Innova did accommodate 6 healthy individuals and proved to be comfortable to all of them over a rather longish journey on average roads.
Just to add - even in the the 8 seater model, the middle row bench is split 66:33 and either side can be pulled forward individually..so one can share some of the leg room in the middle row with the last bench.

Of course the last row may feel a bit roomier in a 7 seater because of the sense of space that the gap between the captain seats may provide.

@Mods - I meant to type that "Body roll is a major factor in comfort in my view" but ended up typing "Body roll is not a a major factor in comfort in my view.". Let me know if that can be corrected in Post # 182.

Last edited by Buffetfan : 10th November 2012 at 12:58.
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Old 10th November 2012, 13:33   #185
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

Main thing about Innova is the Reliability aspect and resale value. World Over Toyotas have a legacy for being reliable and running on and on.

So far there has been no 7/8 seater MUV/SUV to beat the Innova (save for the R350). All these factors make Innova a hot seller than other makes. I for one believe that I might have 5 features that would work for 10 years rather than 20 features that work for 3 years.

Toyota so far has been the best company on solving issues and concerns effectively (not doing tactical talk)
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Old 10th November 2012, 15:01   #186
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

Thank God Toyota is offering electrically adjustable ORVMs in the 'G' variants. I remember quite a few years back me and my friends were at a loss trying to find the adjustment for ORVMs and guess what there was none (I guess it was the middle or top variant, as it had rear wash wipe). There weren't even manual adjustment sticks. One had to adjust by pressing the fingers onto the mirror glass directly. Any Indian manufacturer would have been panned heavily for this glaring omission / cost cutting.
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Old 10th November 2012, 15:35   #187
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

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Originally Posted by jessie007 View Post
Thank God Toyota is offering electrically adjustable ORVMs in the 'G' variants. I remember quite a few years back me and my friends were at a loss trying to find the adjustment for ORVMs and guess what there was none (I guess it was the middle or top variant, as it had rear wash wipe). There weren't even manual adjustment sticks. One had to adjust by pressing the fingers onto the mirror glass directly. Any Indian manufacturer would have been panned heavily for this glaring omission / cost cutting.
This is a feature that must not be omitted but still Innova sold as there was a trade-off. Cost cutting was backed with rock solid reliability and high resale. People were okay to adjust mirror manually and have a reliable vehicle.

People get frustrated when some manufacturers offer shoddy quality, not so good after sales experience and undependable reliability. I ignored fit and finish and Dealership experiences.

There should be at least once place where the product proves

: This is same as the fact that there is(will) a scam in everything. I was shocked to learn that there was SCAM in Police/Army Bullet-proof vests also . The vests costed same a bullet proof vests but were not bullet proof.
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Old 10th November 2012, 16:57   #188
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

Since sometime I had set my eyes on Innova, had a chance to make a purchase earlier in the year but then my Swift allotment came through. So I put the money on Swift. Now again I was in the market for a vehicle. Choice included mainly Innova, then XUV & finally Duster.

Thought it would be easy but turned out otherwise. Counted out XUV on account of quality issues & niggles. Duster excited me but the model hotch-potch w.r.t. features & price did not let me narrow down on a variant. Then I was keen on Base 85PS thinking of saving some money too but as it turns out the waiting for the particular model is long. This brings me to the original choice - Innova & this is where Im left stranded. Previously I had thought of buying the Innova eyes closed but when finally the D-day arrived, I was left not in two but many minds. For one Toyota has been increasing the price of the vehicle almost ir-rationally which has placed it altogether in another segment than in which it earlier was or in which it was still meant to be. Then the vehciel has started to show age in the wake of competition, both XUV & Duster drive much-much better than the Innvoa. Also a new Innova expected next year does not help things.

So I could not make a compelling case for the Innova anymore. From a distance one thinks that this the best vehicle to go in for but the day you are in the market & evaluate competition, you realize, the days of Innova are "over". It will sell in good numbers thanks to the badge, reliability & the reputation it has gained but for a consumer who can see/think beyond the regular "Indian psyche", there are better products out there. Specially if you are going to drive yourselves, Innova does not cut it anymore.
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Old 10th November 2012, 18:44   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffetfan
Even if it is the most premium priced, in a heavily cost sensitive market..and still outsells the competitors. And you say it doesn't offer value...it either means the market is not cost conscious or the consumers dont know how to make the right descision...I can't understand any of that.
I have very clearly mentioned in my post that I don't intend to take away what Innova stands for and I merely projected the alternatives in the market.

I don't want to go further on this topic just to make some counter points. I stand by my statements and agree to disagree. Period.

@AWD - you've clearly posted my thoughts. The premium that Toyota demands is total rip off considering what you get!
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Old 10th November 2012, 20:59   #190
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

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The premium that Toyota demands is total rip off considering what you get!
Totally & the base model does not come with ABS & Tacho.

Earlier on I had my mind made up on Innova but my pen would'nt just move writing off a cheque for the vehicle. I was unable to make a case for it given the price. Top it all, its a darn boring ride.

Advent of vehicles like Ertiga, Duster, XUV, etc. means the monopoly is over. Toyota should now consider re-positioning the Innova. At the given price point, its not worth it.
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Old 11th November 2012, 02:26   #191
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

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my pen would'nt just move writing off a cheque for the vehicle. I was unable to make a case for it given the price. Top it all, its a darn boring ride.
hahahah. I gotta show this to my dad. He is convinced I am too weak-hearted to write a cheque for the Innova!

I have been in and out of the Toyota Dealership atleast 5 times in the last 18 months. For the G variant, the cheap looking steering wheel drives me nuts

In the next bracket, Fortuner comes with almost the same issues. The car offers nothing but reliability. I was so hopeful for the Nissan Evalia, but they have ended up putting it in the Ertiga category.
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Old 11th November 2012, 10:27   #192
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He is convinced I am too weak-hearted to write a cheque for the Innova!For the G variant. I was so hopeful for the Nissan Evalia,
Almost everyone to whom I've talked on the Innova say that the vehicle is very heavily priced now. Same here, I've been to the Toyota dealership numerous times, went for the G variant initially but the absence of ABS, Tachometer made me look at the next variant GX. The GX variant turns out really expensive on-road. Add to it the low fuel average.

Checked out Evalia too but did not like its looks & 2nd row seats placement. For now Im almost decided on base variant of Duster, will save me some money too. Long waiting is the only issue!
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Old 11th November 2012, 14:12   #193
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

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Originally Posted by AWD View Post
I've been to the Toyota dealership numerous times, went for the G variant initially but the absence of ABS, Tachometer made me look at the next variant GX. The GX variant turns out really expensive on-road. Add to it the low fuel average.
I empathize with you and you almost speak for me, when I was deciding on my purchase a couple of months back. The only difference is I went ahead and bought the Innova.

The 13 lacs I spent on it, feels justified:

1) When the whole family of 6 gets to travel in one car. This sense of comfort, happiness and the snug feeling is priceless. As of now I don't think this can be replicated in another car so well. And this was the deal maker for me or a deal breaker if not present.

2) Making a good product is one thing and providing good service is another. Toyota has me floored with the latter more than the former. And this again is an aspect I don't think is replicated in the market as of now.

3) When I look around, hear stories and actually know that this is among the most reliable product in the market.


I do question my decision or rather feel sad:

1) When the engine is panting at 2500 rpm and the speedo needle hasn't touched 100 kmph yet.

2) When I see that at 13 lacs I basically got no features in the car to speak of except for the ABS and driver air bag.

Last edited by rrsteer : 11th November 2012 at 14:15.
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Old 11th November 2012, 14:25   #194
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

@rrsteer: even i totally agree with you. yes the Innova is expensive, and the XUV makes it feel underequipped. But i know of so many XUV owners who would rather choose the peace of mind i have with my innova, against the innumerable niggles they face with the xuv.
yes its boring to drive, but no other vehicle in its price bracket feels so composed and calm when driven right. it gives you a sense of relaxation. that matters when you drive with your family. the innova makes for a family vehicle, whereas the xuv and the duster can be used as personal vehicles as well.
add to that toyotas reliability and superb after sales service (pretty reasonable as well), the innova has created a huge demand for itself, and has rightly replaced the qualis.
we have an ertiga as well, but comparing the ertiga to the innova is more like comparing the quanto to the xylo. cannot think of a more accurate comparison.
yes, it is expensive compared to the xuv, but i prefer a car with fewer but reliable gizmos than a car with many troubled gizmos (most of which can be added aftermarket) .
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Old 11th November 2012, 16:55   #195
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Default Re: A close look at the 2012 Toyota Innova facelift

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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
The only difference is I went ahead and bought the Innova.
whole family of 6 gets to travel in one car. This sense of comfort, happiness and the snug feeling is priceless.
Making a good product is one thing and providing good service is another.
Congrats to you. I purchased an Innova in 05, it was base model & Braking was POOR. Ride quality was not good & the vehicel was not great to drive & Im one of those who live to drive! Sold it off for that.

Now my priority is not carrying more than 4 people onboard, I shall be driving the vehicle myself, so need a vehicle that drives the best & returns high FE. I also suggest people using MUV's to restrict the use of rear-most seats for passengers, its not safe enough.

I still own a Toyota(Corolla) bought new, so do know a little about Toyotas After sales. My honest submission over here is that no matter how our Auto-Industry has grown over the years & numerous new vehicles launched, we still have make compromises here & there. Its so difficult to find a reliable vehicle that we often end up buying the boring Innova. Consumers still make a bee-line for the hideous looking Dzire. Why? Because its offers cheaper maintenance. Bolero(donkey) still sells in huge numbers becasue its reliable & offers cheap maintenance.

Im in no hurry to purchase a vehicle & therefore ready to wait to buy a vehicle of my choice & not make a compromise. Bought a Swift recently & now repenting. Its a good vehicle in its own right but did not turn out for me. Innova is a practical vehicel but I want more than that, I desire a comfy vehicel that is great to drive & fulfills my ambitions.
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