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Old 17th November 2012, 22:41   #1606
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by rambo1o1 View Post
I disagree with you on this. Ford spent alot of money to ramp up its production in india for the launch of the ecosport and if the ecosport fails like the fiesta ( 100 to 200 odd sales) it will never recover the money spent.
Going by your logic hyundai must be going bankrupt selling all those fully loaded i20s, vernas and elantras. If ford prices it below 10 lakhs for the topend and gets good sales then i dont see how ford will go bankrupt. I am sure ford will not sell the ecosport at loss here in India given that it will be more localised then the new fiesta when it was launched last year. Hopefully ford will also be able to relaunch the facelifted fiesta at a better price.



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Exactly. Thanks for supporting my point. I am perfectly OK if people expect it to be priced in the line of i20s, Vernas, Elantras. Because i20 at 7.5, Verna at 10.0 and Elantra at 13.0 ex showroom (all top end approximate prices) are not exactly cheap. And where as the Figo at 5.5 ex showroom is excellent VFM and hence not fair to expect the same price strategy from a car by the same manufacturer in a higher segment.

People buy i20, Vernas, Elantra in good numbers and so they will the EcoSport even if its not priced like a Figo.

To put it in another way, are there any reasons why we should think EcoSport is an inferior car than the Verna? If not why expect it to be less than the Verna ex showroom of 10.0 lakhs?
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Old 17th November 2012, 22:53   #1607
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by VishnuNarayanan View Post
With the term 'softroader' I only meant to explain that a person who wants a proper rugged SUV won't opt for an Ecosport. For a budget above 10 lakhs a traditional Indian buyer who looks for an SUV will have choices like Scopio SLE , Safari etc (of which the variants are equiped with ABS and Airbags) if he could extend his budget a bit. Moreover with a budget of above 10 lakhs the buyer could surely glance over the well equipped sedans too.
Firstly, what makes you think the Scorpio and Safari are rugged?

1. Do you mean rugged = being able to tear through terrains like a Bolero or a Jeep or a gypsy does?

or

2. Rugged = reliability? Both fail. Well, the Scorpio does qualify to be reasonably reliable, but it is so uncomfortable that this reliability factor is as good as taking a very reliable auto over the worst roads you can encounter.

What people are looking for is an SUV priced between 8 and 13 lakhs and is both rugged and comfortable.

Both safari and scorpio, in my books do not qualify to be rugged AND comfortable. This is where the Duster absolutely kills the safari and scorpio.

Please don't bring in sedans into this discussion, because if anyone does - then they don't know what their priorities are. This discussion is solely for people who are looking for

1. an SUV (softroader/hardroader whatever) with good ground clearance (priority)

2. All the bells and whistles in diesel avatar

3. DOES NOT look like a taxi.

4. Is reliable/rugged/comfortable

5. Is between the 8L - 13L barrier.

6. Reasonable seating for 4 people. If they want to cart their in-laws around as well, they should get a xylo or an innova.

Therefore, the NEW breed of SUV's or Mini SUV's that come now will wipe out the Scorpio and the Safari - essentially rebuilding this particular space
into something new - and not carving out an altogether new category.

What does this mean: The consumer looking for an SUV in the 8-13 lakh category now wants something else - there has been a shift in need and that is why the duster is selling so very well.

You want something better, you get into XUV/Yeti territory and if you want something even more: Endy/Fortuner/Captiva.

Apologies if I sounded harsh Vishnu, my intention was never that I wish you a good week-end!
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Old 17th November 2012, 23:51   #1608
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Originally Posted by suchit23

Exactly. Thanks for supporting my point. I am perfectly OK if people expect it to be priced in the line of i20s, Vernas, Elantras. Because i20 at 7.5, Verna at 10.0 and Elantra at 13.0 ex showroom (all top end approximate prices) are not exactly cheap. And where as the Figo at 5.5 ex showroom is excellent VFM and hence not fair to expect the same price strategy from a car by the same manufacturer in a higher segment.

People buy i20, Vernas, Elantra in good numbers and so they will the EcoSport even if its not priced like a Figo.

To put it in another way, are there any reasons why we should think EcoSport is an inferior car than the Verna? If not why expect it to be less than the Verna ex showroom of 10.0 lakhs?
I dont see how i am supporting your point.
The ecosport is actually a hatch with high ground clearance. It will have the space of a premium hatch and size too so i dont think ford should cross the 10lakh mark. You say the i20, verna and elantra are not cheap but they are certainly priced accordingly in their respected segments otherwise all the three cars would not be the best sellers in their segments. The verna which is expensive sells more than the vfm figo.

You ask if the ecosport were not inferior to the Verna then why expect it to be priced below the Verna top model? well it's simple. The ecosport is smaller than the verna, has a smaller and less powerful engine which it would hugely benefit from excise duty exemption. We haven't seen the final production version of the ecosport so we cant say which features Ford has left out from the Brazilian version but inspite of the excise duty exemption if ford still prices it near 10 lakhs ex showroom then it wont sell.

I feel we should wait till ford formally launches the car then predicting its outcome otherwise this thread will turnout like the new fiesta one, got much more hits than the new verna's but in the end the later is a blockbuster hit while the former which had massive hype and excitement before the launch is languishing in the book of super flops of the century !!

Ps: apologies if i offended you in anyway.


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Old 18th November 2012, 00:44   #1609
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1o1 View Post
I
The ecosport is actually a hatch with high ground clearance. It will have the space of a premium hatch and size too so i dont think ford should cross the 10lakh mark.

You ask if the ecosport were not inferior to the Verna then why expect it to be priced below the Verna top model? well it's simple. The ecosport is smaller than the verna, has a smaller and less powerful engine which it would hugely benefit from excise duty exemption.
By that logic, the Mini Cooper should be priced at 8 lakhs, since it's not larger than a Swift. (Maybe another 2 lakhs for that turbocharged 1.6 liter engine.) And a Hummer should cost 5 crores. But they don't.

Size should have nothing to do with the price you pay for the product. Unfortunately, most Indian car-buyers equate size with money.

The EcoSport is not a budget offing. It is fitted and finished like a Fiesta. It should have all the necessary gadgetry and equipment a Fiesta comes with, and then some. And more importantly, it packs versatility. It's ability to tackle rough / bad roads while giving you a car like driving-experience is something worth putting a price on because no car offers what it does barring the Duster.

A compact crossover with car like handling / dynamics, SUV-like presence, technologically advanced petrol and diesel engines, etc make it a worthy package. It is basically a Fiesta on stilts. And if the Fiesta costs 10-12 lakhs OTR, then why would Ford position the EcoSport any lower? In my book, the EcoSport will have a lot more to offer than the Fiesta.

Let's not forget that the Fiesta is actually a hatchback that's sold as a sedan in some markets.

If Ford prices the EcoSport slightly higher than the Fiesta and a notch below the Duster, they've done well. I believe they can't do any better or they'd run the risk of cannibalizing their own products.

On a similar note, it pains me to read that people want so much from the car (EcoBoost / diesel engine, dual-clutch transmission, living-room-like space, amazing fuel economy, the kitchen sink, etc) and still expect it to be priced below 10 lakhs, why? Because it's fundamentally a hatchback?

Look past the dimensions and asses the car for its merits and what it's really worth.

IMO, this is precisely the reason why great products like the Jazz, the Forester, the Fusion, etc. fail and cars like the Dzire fly off the shelves. That seemingly inconsequential boot hanging at the back boosts many a ego.

EDIT:

On the 4th page of this thread, this is what I had to say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Alright, so if Ford price this any where more than 10 lakhs, its going to be a total disaster. They need to ensure that the price does not hit double-digits at any costs. From the looks of it, the EcoSport is a hatch on stilts. Something like the Fusion. I expect it to be similarly sized.
Sounds like I'm contradicting myself, no?

Well, if there is one thing I've learnt since I'd posted this, it's that market dynamics plays a very crucial role in the pricing of a product. The top end Duster hits 15 lakhs in some States. We also need to take into account several crucial things like the value of the Rupee and how it seems to go south every quarter. prices of raw material and the Govt's skewed taxing laws.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 18th November 2012 at 01:01.
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Old 18th November 2012, 02:06   #1610
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
By that logic, the Mini Cooper should be priced at 8 lakhs, since it's not larger than a Swift. (Maybe another 2 lakhs for that turbocharged 1.6 liter engine.) And a Hummer should cost 5 crores. But they don't.

Size should have nothing to do with the price you pay for the product. Unfortunately, most Indian car-buyers equate size with money.
I am sure the mini is doing well and R.I.P hummer.
I dont think one can compare the mini to the Ecosoprt. I think you misunderstood my post.
I agree that it is a sad reality that Indian buyers equate size with money but i want the ecosport to succeed. I dont want ford to suffer in teaching us Indian that size doesn't matter because the yeti(brilliant car) is a sales dud!! and ford cannot afford another flop!

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
The EcoSport is not a budget offing. It is fitted and finished like a Fiesta. It should have all the necessary gadgetry and equipment a Fiesta comes with, and then some. And more importantly, it packs versatility. It's ability to tackle rough / bad roads while giving you a car like driving-experience is something worth putting a price on because no car offers what it does barring the Duster.
We all know the fate of the Fiesta. I agree the ecosport is versatile and has good ground clearance but the ride will be stiff(MAS report) and i wonder how that will fare in our pothole ridden roads.Maybe ford will strike a balance here in India, will know soon i hope.
The duster is a proven offroader no doubt but the ecosprt is not. Can we expect the ecosport to do same amount of offroading like thee duster and come out unscathed ? I feel the ecosoprt will be as capable as the ertiga in handling bad roads .

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
A compact crossover with car like handling / dynamics, SUV-like presence, technologically advanced petrol and diesel engines, etc make it a worthy package. It is basically a Fiesta on stilts. And if the Fiesta costs 10-12 lakhs OTR, then why would Ford position the EcoSport any lower? In my book, the EcoSport will have a lot more to offer than the Fiesta.

Let's not forget that the Fiesta is actually a hatchback that's sold as a sedan in some markets.
If Ford prices the EcoSport slightly higher than the Fiesta and a notch below the Duster, they've done well. I believe they can't do any better or they'd run the risk of cannibalizing their own products.
Isnt Ford benefiting from Lower excise duty on size and engine displacement?? That was the whole point of the ecosport right? So why should they price it more than the fiesta?? I think they are delaying the launch because they want to localize the ecosport as much as possible which they did not do with the fiesta.
If the fiesta is going to be cannibalized by the ecosport then its partly Fords fault and partly to do with the Indian mindset. Fords fault because the fiesta was never a good offering here,its similar to the ecosport in interior space,quality,power etc all which did not woo the buyer with the fiesta.The only differentiating factor with the ecosport isthe design and GC which comes to my Indian mindset statement. We Indians prefer SUVs than sedans so naturally the XUV/fortuner sells much more than their sedan counterparts.But the ecosport is no full fledged SUV so Ford should not bank on this and price it high.
If you feel the current price of the fiesta is justified then its your personal view but the Indian consumer believes otherwise so ford cannot in anyway price it more than the fiesta!

As you said the ecosoprt is basically a fiesta on stilts and if ford feels the ecosport is a revolution over the fiesta hatch/sedan then let them price it higher,the looser will be ford and we the customer will then eagerly wait for Maruti, Hyundai,Toyota and GM for their compact SUVs!


Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
On a similar note, it pains me to read that people want so much from the car (EcoBoost / diesel engine, dual-clutch transmission, living-room-like space, amazing fuel economy, the kitchen sink, etc) and still expect it to be priced below 10 lakhs, why? Because it's fundamentally a hatchback?

IMO, this is precisely the reason why great products like the Jazz, the Forester, the Fusion, etc. fail and cars like the Dzire fly off the shelves. That seemingly inconsequential boot hanging at the back boosts many a ego.
We may demand alot but the manufacture that succeeds in meeting most of it will naturally get our money then the one who doesn't.The am janta dont care for ecoboost, dual clutch because these will be associated with petrol and basically the only petrol car that sells in this price range is the city! Ford should get its basics right like good space ,economy etc and stuff like ecobosst and DCT will get it some die hard petrol fans but thats all.

Yes the Jazz, fusion were great products but the main factor that brought them down was the price and it will happen to the ecosport if ford prices it near 10 lakhs.
Ford should realize that they wont be the only competitors in the segment with Hyundai, Toyota,maruti and GM anouncing plans in this segment soon. If ford wants to be their guinea pig then its upto ford, Who i belive will not repeat the fiesta fiasco!

EDIT: Dint see your last update as i was typing but what you have posted makes my whole post redundant doesn't it?? I wonder if the duster continues to sell well after the hike...

Last edited by rambo1o1 : 18th November 2012 at 02:26. Reason: previous editing did not get saved, slow net!
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Old 18th November 2012, 10:14   #1611
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Looks like everybody here is letting out their views on how they want Ford to price the Duster and not what Ford would ideally price it. I remember reading years ago, a statement from a Ford official, that they don't intend to launch the new Fiesta in India because it is too expensive to produce for the Indian market. But eventually they did, maybe because they thought that maybe Indians would be able to think beyond the VFM tag. After all, there was a good example in the i20.

I personally would like them not to play the VFM tag, cos there are enough and more VFM vehicles in our market. I want a well engineered, reliable and comfortable product, albeit at a slightly high price, which I am looking forward to make my next purchase. I had waited for the Ertiga, only to be disappointed, then for the Duster, to be disappointed again, and don't want the Ecosport to be yet another disappointment. We have enough and more mediocre products out there, and don't need another one to compete with them.
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Old 18th November 2012, 10:19   #1612
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Most people play safe and do not go too much into the technology behind a product. So in the B segment it is the Wagon R and Santro, In B+ it the Swift and the I 20 & Figo and so on.

Duster is a success because it has the size that gives it the presence of an SUV ( + a feul efficient Diesel mill) . The Yeti which is a more capable vehicle doesn't. There are a large number of Fiat fans on the forum. However, thery are not enough to makes these cars sell . Ford Fiesta bombed because of wrong pricing and a poor understanding of what the Indian car buyer wants. It is poor in terms of back seat space, had exposed hinges ( rear set armrest) and so despite its class leading dynamics no one went in for it.

Hyundai on the other had seduces the customer with extremely good interiors and all kinds of gizmos. The cars have class leading specifications on paper ( highest power etc). Women play a very important role in making this decision. I have seen a lot of women get seduced by the the interiors of Hyundai cars and virtually force these cars down the throats of their family members disregarding all their points in favour of other makes. If my friends ask me for advise on selecting a car and an I20, Verno or an 1 10 is a part of the consideration set, I ask them to not let their wives experience the interiors of these cars ( incase the gentlemen themselves are not interested in these). I did the samething when we went in for our Figo. Had my wife seen the interiors of an I20, I may have been armtwisted into spending a lot more money to buy a car ai was not interested in.

I may have gone off the tangent but to the majority of Indian car buyers size equals price and butchness. An SUV should look big and they will put their money on the table. Small cars should have small prices.

just to illustrate the point I would naarate another example. My boss had bought a Yeti and was very prowd of it. I was talking a walk with the Missus and I pointed to a Yeti and told her that my boss has bought it . She asked my the price. I tolf her it was around 16 lakhs. Her response" but it only slightly bigger than our Figo" . I told her that he was interested in a SUV. her response -"He should have bought a Scorpio or a XUV 500. Those are Suv's this is just a cute little hatchback"

If Ford wants to make a succeess of the Ecosport they will have to price it well. It is small but the agressive stylng does give it a presence. The rest will depend on how well Ford does up the interiors and at what level is it priced. I also expect 70-80 % of the sales to come from the Diesel variant as most bpeople fill consider a 1 litre 3 pot petrol too small .
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Old 18th November 2012, 14:19   #1613
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

I think Renault got their strategy right by bringing in a good product and a very good price initially, and following it up with price corrections once it was established. Ford has lost the first mover advantage, and will find it difficult to create differentiation factors from the consumer's perspective. Pricing it really low is the only option to drive volumes.
Most consumers start with a budget in their mind and then look for cars which provides maximum value within that range. If the price is relatively higher then
its automatically out of the consideration set, irrespective of the gadgets and gizmos, which happened in the case of Fiesta.
Competition plays an important factor. With Duster around, the expectations from Ecosport are really high. It will be an interesting contest to watch out for.
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Old 18th November 2012, 20:05   #1614
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
1. an SUV (softroader/hardroader whatever) with good ground clearance (priority)

2. All the bells and whistles in diesel avatar

3. DOES NOT look like a taxi.

4. Is reliable/rugged/comfortable

5. Is between the 8L - 13L barrier.

6. Reasonable seating for 4 people. If they want to cart their in-laws around as well, they should get a xylo or an innova.

Therefore, the NEW breed of SUV's or Mini SUV's that come now will wipe out the Scorpio and the Safari - essentially rebuilding this particular space
into something new - and not carving out an altogether new category.

What does this mean: The consumer looking for an SUV in the 8-13 lakh category now wants something else - there has been a shift in need and that is why the duster is selling so very well.

You want something better, you get into XUV/Yeti territory and if you want something even more: Endy/Fortuner/Captiva.

Apologies if I sounded harsh Vishnu, my intention was never that I wish you a good week-end!
Red Liner,
I agree with you for majority of the points that you have listed.
But we can't never underestimate the capabilities of a Scorpio, Safari or a Xylo(just because of some negative happenings or comments) . They have niggles but there do exists people(traditional Indian familes who requires a 7 seater ) who have joyful experiences throughout the ownership with this Indian origin manufacturer's SUV's. I compared an Ecosport with a sedan and a premium hatchback just because the Ford website proclaims that Ecosport is a vehicle for those urban folks who are fed up with the low ground clearances of their sedans and their hatchbacks . More over the Duster's ad which says 'Our Apologies to all of those who have bought a sedan' clearly explains which segment are the mini SUVs targetting at.
An Ecopsort with a long feature list that includes Hill Climb Assist and other electrical gimoz may be a wonderful product if Ford wants to pitch the little SUV targeting the premium sedans(Vento category) and SUV in the 9-12lakhs price bracket. But if Ford wants a huge response , they must be able to address the customers (who does not have the budget to go beyond 10 lakhs)with a moderately featured Ecosport with minimal safety features such as ABS and Airbags under a price tag of on road 10 lakhs.
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Old 18th November 2012, 20:12   #1615
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by VishnuNarayanan View Post
But if Ford wants a huge response , they must be able to address the customers (who does not have the budget to go beyond 10 lakhs)with a moderately featured Ecosport with minimal safety features such as ABS and Airbags under a price tag of on road 10 lakhs.
Wholeheartedly agree with you.

Something I've noticed here is that inanimate objects like cars drive members to a rabid frenzy amongst each other - almost like they've designed or invented these machines themselves.

Nice to see and partake in polite conversations that don't wreak of sarcasm. After all, these are cars that are replaced every few years.

Okay, the rest can get back to their rabid frothing now
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Old 18th November 2012, 20:25   #1616
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
Wholeheartedly agree with you.

Something I've noticed here is that inanimate objects like cars drive members to a rabid frenzy amongst each other - almost like they've designed or invented these machines themselves.

Nice to see and partake in polite conversations that don't wreak of sarcasm. After all, these are cars that are replaced every few years.

Okay, the rest can get back to their rabid frothing now
I do feel happy to be a part of a healthy debate in this prestigious forum.
Let us wait and see what the American manufacturer strategy would be with the Ecosport ! Let us wish Ford Ecosport would be priced sensibly and would not disappoint us again as in the case of the NFS.
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Old 18th November 2012, 20:47   #1617
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Adding another dimension to the pricing strategy is the fact Indian are partial to SUV styling. A good product like Fiesta with a price tag, may be a dud.
But an SUV at that price may as well succeed thanks to most Indian's dream of buying an "SUV" with "good looks".

Duster top end pricing has already set the precedent. Surely Ford can't cross that limit. If Ford limits it at about 12-13L OTR Bangalore for the top end
diesel, with a decently equipped (ABS/Airbags) middle variant at about 10-11L OTR, I think they will hit a sweet spot in sales.
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Old 18th November 2012, 23:54   #1618
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

I think the Ecosport will have to be lower than the Duster by at least 50k to 60k model to model as it is a smaller car.
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Old 19th November 2012, 00:01   #1619
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Adding another dimension to the pricing strategy is the fact Indian are partial to SUV styling. A good product like Fiesta with a price tag, may be a dud.
But an SUV at that price may as well succeed thanks to most Indian's dream of buying an "SUV" with "good looks".

Duster top end pricing has already set the precedent. Surely Ford can't cross that limit. If Ford limits it at about 12-13L OTR Bangalore for the top end
diesel, with a decently equipped (ABS/Airbags) middle variant at about 10-11L OTR, I think they will hit a sweet spot in sales.
I agree. For same equipment levels, an average Indian would be willing to pay more for an SUV EcoSport than a sedan in Global Fiesta. What we're all forgetting I think is, Fiesta petrol has a 1.5 l petrol engine,and the EcoSport a 1 L di petrol heart with shorter length (is out below 4 m?). That translates to excise duty savings which should enable an aggressive entry petrol variant pricing. Imagine 6.99 lacs for base petrol and 8.5 lacs for base diesel ex Delhi. Former is a hook for prospects, and the latter fetches the moolah for Ford.
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Old 19th November 2012, 01:29   #1620
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Duster top end pricing has already set the precedent. Surely Ford can't cross that limit. If Ford limits it at about 12-13L OTR Bangalore for the top end diesel, with a decently equipped (ABS/Airbags) middle variant at about 10-11L OTR, I think they will hit a sweet spot in sales.
Instead of coming up with Ex-Delhi prices, manufacturers should start coming up with OTR Prices in Bangalore, which is probably the highest in the country , and if it is still VFM, then surely it will sell in huge numbers across the country.
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