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Old 18th January 2012, 13:23   #256
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by shivasuma View Post
I dont think its possible to get 18-20 kmpl out of a petrol car in city conditions. I don't think there is even a diesel car currently that gives 18-20kmpl in the city. If the ecosport delivers 13 with AC, I would be happy with it.
My nano gives me 18 in the city My Fusion gives me 18 in the city as well, and 22-24 on the highway - and I believe all Ford TDCi engines deliver similar averages. Tata, Skoda, VW and Hyundai diesels deliver amazing averages as well. I've read reports here of bigger C Segment diesels delivering similar averages. Welcome to 2012.

Last edited by NIP : 18th January 2012 at 13:26.
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Old 18th January 2012, 14:12   #257
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by shivasuma View Post
I dont think its possible to get 18-20 kmpl out of a petrol car in city conditions. I don't think there is even a diesel car currently that gives 18-20kmpl in the city. If the ecosport delivers 13 with AC, I would be happy with it.
In fact there are quite a few Diesel sedans which give consistent mileage in the range of 18-20 in mixed use!
My Ford Fiesta TDCI (Classic) gave me consistently 18.5 over 4 1/2 year
My Skoda Yeti gives 17.2 Kmpl in Mixed driving, in spite of the 2 L 140 BHp engine
Most Skoda Octavias / New Lauras diesel give 18-20 Kmpl even after years of use (there are many ownership threads which you can read!)
Hyundai Vernas diesel - old / new also give 16-18 Kmpl mileage
Toyota Corolla Diesel gives 18-20 Kmpl

Regarding getting 13 Kmpl from the Ecosport petrol, it's just not good enough and its the diesel engine people would look forward to. That should be able to give 18-20 Kmpl mileage and should be able to pull the numbers in terms of sales.

@Mustang101: Please share our sincere advice with the powers that be at Ford that we need the diesel engine first! The petrol engine with whatever technology, will still not be able to be as powerful and fuel efficient as a modern diesel one! (I am also an ex-automobile engineer !)

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Old 18th January 2012, 14:12   #258
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

If Ford manages to achieve mileage figures in the region of 14-16 in the city, in the EcoSport, they have a winner. The only petrol engines that consistently deliver good FE figures are those found in Hondas. The Jazz and the Brio. I'd say, the new K-series engines in the Swift/Ritz are pretty good too, and deliver great mileage.

If Ford comes close to these cars, they've ht the nail on the head. Add the fact that it should be zippy and quick, thanks to the turbo, direct-injection and variable-valve timing.

But the cast-iron head is something that still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, for something that is considered to be an 'Eco' car. I hope it meets refinement levels of other petrol engines. While adding a turbo, DI and variable-valve timing is a good move, what stopped Ford from going the whole-hog and incorporating an all-aluminium block?

The big question. Will it be as refined as Honda, Toyota and Suzuki engines? Let's hope so.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 18th January 2012 at 14:14.
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Old 18th January 2012, 14:43   #259
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
what stopped Ford from going the whole-hog and incorporating an all-aluminium block?
Does this answer ?Quoting from Mustang.101


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
Also i have some FACTS about the ecoboost engine.

1. As some of you rightly pointed out that the engine is a cast iron crate and not an all aluminum. First lets clear the facts about all aluminum engines, all aluminum means the engine has been made out of aluminum alloys and not actual aluminum as aluminum is very soft and cant handle the heat and frictional forces generated in engines. Secondly, most of the moving components like piston rods, pistons, etc. are made out of cast iron in all all-aluminum engines as these moving components are subject to great heat because of friction and even aluminum alloys can not handle this wear and tear.
In short, when we say all-aluminum engine, only the crate is made out of aluminum alloys where as all the moving components are cast iron.



.
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Old 18th January 2012, 14:56   #260
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by ToroRosso View Post
Does this answer ?Quoting from Mustang.101
Nope, it doesn't.

I can read, and I'd read this post earlier, before posting myself.

Isn't having aluminium engine components the way forward? Lighter material would translate into better efficiency and better refinement. And the EcoBoost engine belongs to the post 2010 era. So incorporating a cast-iron block in a car that's supposed to belong in the 2010 era is going one-step back, I'm of the opinion.

Yes, I do understand that when we say all-aluminium, it isn't exactly completely aluminium. But are crucial components like piston-rings, piston-rods and pistons themselves still made of cast-iron? Pure aluminum cannot withstand extreme heat and pressure. I'm aware of that. But what about components made entirely out of aluminium-alloy? Wouldn't that improve things?

The EcoSport will be powered by a 1000cc engine. And incorporating cast-iron blocks may not make such a difference in terms of weight. But what about refinement? And even if it's a small engine, wouldn't aluminium-alloy further reduce unsprung weight and improve fuel-efficiency even further?

Many have expressed unhappiness over the real-world figure of 13 km/l, and rightfully so. Turbo, DI or not, at the end of the day, 13 km/l will only drive people into waiting for a diesel alternative.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 18th January 2012 at 15:11.
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Old 18th January 2012, 15:02   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToroRosso

Does this answer ?Quoting from Mustang.101
No, point no. 2 does. You did not quote it but read point no. 2 in that post.

@others - i have mentioned 13 -14 as realistic city FE with 100% AC and by city i mean a city like bangalore or mumbai. Delhi people will get more. ARAI figures for the car will be around 17 and 20 for petrol and diesel respectively.

Just remember that this engine is more powerful than a 1.6 or 1.5 engine and also the car is heavier than the fiesta. The car will be around 1300 kgs where as the heaviest fiesta is around 1150 kgs.

And yes in this car, the petrol will be more powerful than the diesel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307

Nope, it doesn't.


Yes, I do understand that when we say all-aluminium, it isn't exactly completely aluminium. But are crucial components like piston-rings, piston-rods and pistons themselves still made of cast-iron? Pure aluminum cannot withstand extreme heat and pressure. I'm aware of that. But what about components made entirely out of aluminium-alloy? Wouldn't that improve things?

The EcoSport will be powered by a 1000cc engine. And incorporating cast-iron blocks may not make such a difference in terms of weight. But what about refinement? And even if it's a small engine, wouldn't aluminium-alloy further reduce unsprung weight and improve fuel-efficiency even further?

.

An all aluminum engine of this size in a car like this wont provide much traction on the front wheels where the drive is connected. Most of the moving components in aluminum engines are still made out of cast iron piston rods etc. Such moving components are till date not made out of aluminum alloys in general road cars.

The engine will be as refined if not more than the current 1.5 ti-vct, i can assure you that as i had attended a company seminar while on work in the US.

The main reason to select cast iron was the traction, the robustness (will not require any repair for lacs of miles if subject to proper servicing) and the easier and faster warm up ability of cast iron. Also cast iron is far less affected by heating issues like in the situation when one's coolant is leaking and then sh*t happens. I have driven an very old dodge ram for 10 miles without any coolant once after an accident. Did not even add water. No engine damage whatsoever.

Last edited by Mustang.101 : 18th January 2012 at 15:11.
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Old 18th January 2012, 15:09   #262
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIP View Post
My nano gives me 18 in the city My Fusion gives me 18 in the city as well, and 22-24 on the highway - and I believe all Ford TDCi engines deliver similar averages. Tata, Skoda, VW and Hyundai diesels deliver amazing averages as well. I've read reports here of bigger C Segment diesels delivering similar averages. Welcome to 2012.
Sir, I myself own a fiesta (1.4 TDCi, not the classic). It never gave me anything above 15kmpl in the city with 100% AC. My colleague also has a Fusion TDCI (he got it based on my recommendation). He also gets approx the same in the city. So I am saying it based on my experience. Its tough to get 18kmpl in a city like Bangalore (with 100% AC I mean). If the roads are traffic free or with very little traffic then maybe, otherwise its tough).
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Old 18th January 2012, 15:10   #263
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Nope, it doesn't.

I can read, and I'd read this post earlier, before posting myself.

.
Didnt want to qn your readability skills, thought it was clearly explained in Mustang's post.
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Old 18th January 2012, 15:14   #264
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

From the details given, the 1.0 Ecoboost maybe considered technologically backward, but if I get something similar to the Ikon's 1.6 Rocam, I will surely take it!
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Old 18th January 2012, 15:20   #265
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Originally Posted by vb-san
From the details given, the 1.0 Ecoboost maybe considered technologically backward, but if I get something similar to the Ikon's 1.6 Rocam, I will surely take it!
Technologically backward? Turbo charging, direct injection and ti-vct in a petrol engine, what more technology can you ask for? Lol.
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Old 18th January 2012, 15:28   #266
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
From the details given, the 1.0 Ecoboost maybe considered technologically backward, but if I get something similar to the Ikon's 1.6 Rocam, I will surely take it!

I disagree with it as we don’t have any engine close to it running on Indian roads.

“Fitted with a long list of innovative technologies, the 1.0-litre EcoBoost is one of the most technically advanced and efficient engines Ford has ever designed and produced,” said Bakaj VP Global products Ford.

Some more details on this link Ford 1.0L Ecoboost Engine Appears In Ford EcoSport - Ford EcoBoost Forum
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Old 18th January 2012, 15:36   #267
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Isn't having aluminium engine components the way forward? Lighter material would translate into better efficiency and better refinement. And the EcoBoost engine belongs to the post 2010 era. So incorporating a cast-iron block in a car that's supposed to belong in the 2010 era is going one-step back, I'm of the opinion.

Yes, I do understand that when we say all-aluminium, it isn't exactly completely aluminium. But are crucial components like piston-rings, piston-rods and pistons themselves still made of cast-iron? Pure aluminum cannot withstand extreme heat and pressure. I'm aware of that. But what about components made entirely out of aluminium-alloy? Wouldn't that improve things?

The EcoSport will be powered by a 1000cc engine. And incorporating cast-iron blocks may not make such a difference in terms of weight. But what about refinement? And even if it's a small engine, wouldn't aluminium-alloy further reduce unsprung weight and improve fuel-efficiency even further?
If I understood this 1l Ecoboost will not be present globally - read BRIC - read economy offering

So cost would have definitely been a concern at design stage since aluminum is costlier than CI - where Ford is quite well versed at in manufacturing from the Mustang days

The Duratec (i.e Sigma engines) are all-alloy but designed by Yamaha, and all previous Ford offerings have had the CI block - Rocam.

As you have pondered even in case of aluminium alloy block, I read somewhere that the pistons are usually cast iron since Al - Al friction is higher than Al- CI friction.

Or you have to implement actions like Honda do with molybdenum coatings and what not - increase in cost of manufacturing.

While I am not an auto engineer, I am just guessing it has more to do with cost rather than any technical challenge for Ford.
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Old 18th January 2012, 15:42   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indivic

If I understood this 1l Ecoboost will not be present globally - read BRIC - read economy offering

So cost would have definitely been a concern at design stage since aluminum is costlier than CI - where Ford is quite well versed at in manufacturing from the Mustang days
This engine will be launched globally in all leading markets. Existing products like the fiesta will also get it. (in the US and UK, not sure about india).
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Old 18th January 2012, 15:49   #269
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

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Originally Posted by tj123 View Post
I disagree with it as we don’t have any engine close to it running on Indian roads.

“Fitted with a long list of innovative technologies, the 1.0-litre EcoBoost is one of the most technically advanced and efficient engines Ford has ever designed and produced,” said Bakaj VP Global products Ford.
Thanks, I am not doubting or questioning the technology behind this. My comment was specific to the talk that the engine is considered as a step backward (cast iron v/s aluminium debate)

Quote:
Originally Posted by indivic View Post
If I understood this 1l Ecoboost will not be present globally - read BRIC - read economy offering
I don't think so. From what I have read around and understood, this will be made available in all matured markets as well, and will find its way to the likes of Fiesta hatchback and other small cars.
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Old 18th January 2012, 16:17   #270
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post

Just remember that this engine is more powerful than a 1.6 or 1.5 engine and also the car is heavier than the fiesta. The car will be around 1300 kgs where as the heaviest fiesta is around 1150 kgs.

An all aluminum engine of this size in a car like this wont provide much traction on the front wheels where the drive is connected. Most of the moving components in aluminum engines are still made out of cast iron piston rods etc. Such moving components are till date not made out of aluminum alloys in general road cars.

The engine will be as refined if not more than the current 1.5 ti-vct, i can assure you that as i had attended a company seminar while on work in the US.

The main reason to select cast iron was the traction, the robustness (will not require any repair for lacs of miles if subject to proper servicing) and the easier and faster warm up ability of cast iron. Also cast iron is far less affected by heating issues like in the situation when one's coolant is leaking and then sh*t happens. I have driven an very old dodge ram for 10 miles without any coolant once after an accident. Did not even add water. No engine damage whatsoever.
What do you mean by traction? Where does traction come into picture? If by traction you mean that with an aluminum engine the weight up front will be lesser than the weight with a cast iron block resulting in loss of traction while accelerating; then I don't buy this.

The block material is not the most important factor in the weight at the front.

You also mentioned that the Ecosport will probably be the heaviest in the segment.

The reason for not going for an aluminum block seems simple. The aluminum block although lightweight does not absorb vibrations as well as an iron block. Aluminum blocks are known to be buzzy at high rpm's.

The Ecoboost is a 3cylinder engine which will inherently be non symetric firing sequence. As a result of this 3 cylinder engines have more vibrations due to uneven firing. The cast iron block adds more damping as it's heavier and cast iron being a softer material absorbs some of the vibrations. Aluminum blocks are the way forward but I can understand why Ford chose not to use it as this may have resulted in poor NVH levels.

Also, we have to remember this is a small 1000cc engine putting out some serious BHP. Cast iron will probably do a better job as the engine will be working pretty much at it's limit.

Again my views are very general and just from basic understanding of these materials and internal combustion engines. There may be lots of other factors involved which I have no clue of. Pls. feel free to correct me if I am way off.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 18th January 2012 at 16:19.
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