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Old 27th January 2012, 01:01   #346
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
^^^
Let's not mix up power and NVH.
Could you please describe the 'clatter'? Why do you consider it to be a characteristic of an I3?

Regards
Sutripta
Don't have too much experience with I3.

The clatter makes it sound almost like a diesel car.

For example, switch on the engines of a Brio and a Polo 1.2. Both are 1.2s but the Polo's mill is an I3 where as the Brio's is an I4. While the Brio will be relatively quiet from the outside as well as the inside, the Polo's mill makes a characteristic, almost 'rough' sound. Not far from the clatter of a diesel-mill.
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Old 27th January 2012, 12:11   #347
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Somehow considering the price levels of the current new fiesta it seems unlikely to start imaging the EcoSport to be lesser priced than it with more to offer. A lot of the price targets mentioned in the thread at various points of time peg it in at too low a price.

Yep then goofed up with the fiesta pricing but they can't really price it at the point that we all wish it to be at unless the fiesta prices are revisted prior to it's launch.
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Old 27th January 2012, 14:17   #348
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Don't have too much experience with I3.

The clatter makes it sound almost like a diesel car.

For example, switch on the engines of a Brio and a Polo 1.2. Both are 1.2s but the Polo's mill is an I3 where as the Brio's is an I4. While the Brio will be relatively quiet from the outside as well as the inside, the Polo's mill makes a characteristic, almost 'rough' sound. Not far from the clatter of a diesel-mill.
If I may Add to what Suhaas has said. I3 (Inline 3) engines are very difficult to design and suppress NVH for, which is why there is a typical clatter in running condition. It also requires the use of unbalanced shafts and variable ignition timing to ensure that the engine runs smoothly. From the engine technology perspective, I4 engines are smoother because they are counterbalanced internally. The only reason why manufacturers are going for I3 engines now are fuel consumption savings and smaller size. But to get good power from the engine, these often need to be supercharged (in case of petrol).
There is substantial investment in engine research that even Ford would have put in to perfect this engine. But the final outcome will be visible only when they launch the Ecosport, which is still very far.

I just hope that Auto manufacturers start making small diesel engines too, which can give good power and phenomenal mileage! Petrol engine technology has almost reach the zenith of evolution on mileage, but in diesel tech, there still is a lot of scope!

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Old 27th January 2012, 16:36   #349
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
If you think what i told was adspeak/marketing then i am sorry i can not help you. The engine has been designed in england and i had absolutely no role in it and whatever i get to know i tell you guys and also i am not into designing/engineering ford engines.
I think it is better if i just dont post at all in this thread if you find my posts as "adspeak"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
But i did not use the word "aspirational" and sutripta's last two comments have targeted me.
I think 'targeting' is too strong a word, but you are right in that they were certainly meant for you. Because you have taken on yourself the role of being Ford's spokesperson. Adspeak was not in respect to 'lefestyle' but because of your paraphrasing Fords handouts/ brochures (which are put together by 'corporate communication specialists', not engineers) without any additional insight. And whatever little technical discussion there has been on this thread leaves a lot to be desired. (eg. Pistons and ConRods of CI)

With an entirely new engine, the buzz about the EcoSport can be maintained for a long time by a timely whetting of our technical appetite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Don't have too much experience with I3.

The clatter makes it sound almost like a diesel car.

For example, switch on the engines of a Brio and a Polo 1.2. Both are 1.2s but the Polo's mill is an I3 where as the Brio's is an I4. While the Brio will be relatively quiet from the outside as well as the inside, the Polo's mill makes a characteristic, almost 'rough' sound. Not far from the clatter of a diesel-mill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemoth View Post
If I may Add to what Suhaas has said. I3 (Inline 3) engines are very difficult to design and suppress NVH for, which is why there is a typical clatter in running condition. It also requires the use of unbalanced shafts and variable ignition timing to ensure that the engine runs smoothly. From the engine technology perspective, I4 engines are smoother because they are counterbalanced internally. The only reason why manufacturers are going for I3 engines now are fuel consumption savings and smaller size. But to get good power from the engine, these often need to be supercharged (in case of petrol).
Clatter, by my understanding, is an irregular mechanical noise. (eg. The bullet UCE clatters, the CI did not). What is the characteristic clatter of an I3? What happens at higher RPMs?

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Old 27th January 2012, 17:52   #350
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

The clatter is not as prominent, but it's still intrusive at higher RPMs. The clatter during idling is similar to some diesel-mills, I'm of the opinion.
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Old 27th January 2012, 19:18   #351
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
The clatter makes it sound almost like a diesel car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemoth View Post
which is why there is a typical clatter in running condition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Clatter, by my understanding, is an irregular mechanical noise. (eg. The bullet UCE clatters, the CI did not). What is the characteristic clatter of an I3? What happens at higher RPMs?
Lets clear the terminology confusion. For the purpose of this discussion, lets call it a buzz/vibration and not a clatter since clatter is something we associate with diesel engines and here we are discussing both diesel and petrol engines(3 potters). Also, with a clatter, it is just a noise and not necessarily an associated vibration. With a buzz, it is a noise with an associated vibration.

Allow me to quote some text from:
AutoZine Technical School - Engine

Quote:
Inline 3-cylinder engines
As the engine fires once every 240 crankshaft angle (720 / 3 = 240), the crankshaft design is as shown in the below picture. (Firing order is: 1-3-2)

It seems that no matter how the crankshaft rotate, the combined center of gravity of all 3 pistons and con-rods will remain at the same location, hence no vibration generated. By mathematical analysis, you can also find there is no forces generated in vertical direction as well as transverse direction. (actually, I really performed such calculations) So why did we hear that 3-cylinder engine need balancer shaft ?

In fact, the calculation is wrong because it assumes the engine is one point, thus the forces of all 3 cylinders act on this single point and result in complete cancellation. In reality, the forces act on 3 different locations on the crankshaft, thus instead of canceling one another, they make the crankshaft vibrating end to end.

Don’t understand ? look at the above picture, the side view of the engine. Piston 1 is at the top now and is going downward, thus generates an upward force to the left end of the crankshaft. Piston 2 is also going downward, thus generates an upward force to the middle of the crankshaft. Piston 3 is going upward, thus generate a downward force to the right end of crankshaft. As the engine’s center of gravity locates in cylinder 2, you can see forces from piston 1 push the left end of the engine upward while forces from piston 3 push the right end of the engine downward; After 180 rotation, the situation will be completely reversed - downward force at left and upward force at the right. In other words, this is an end-to-end vibration with respect to the center in cylinder 2.

End-to-end vibration (shown here is a V6)

Solution - single balancer shaft

Therefore inline-3 engine is better to be equipped with a balancer shaft, driven by crankshaft. There is a weight at each end of the balancer shaft. The weights move in direction opposite to the direction of the end pistons. When the piston goes up, the weight goes down. When the piston goes down, the weight goes up. Therefore the end-to-end vibration can be counter balanced by the balancer shaft which is driven at the same speed as the crankshaft.
Obviously, the solution used in the Ford Ecoboost 1.0 engine is different from the quoted text as they use an unbalanced flywheel instead of the Balancer Shaft and hence uses less components = less weight = less things that can break = less maintenance = less cost. (the last lines are my speculations)
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Old 28th January 2012, 18:25   #352
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Ford EcoSport on display at Inorbit Mall, Vashi Navi Mumbai.

Today there was the Ford EcoSport on display at Inorbit Mall, Vashi which will be there till tomorrow. After which Ford people said it would be off to Chennai. Uploading two set of pics, sorry for the quality of pics as its from my mobile. Even met bhpian MX6 who might share better photographs from his bridge camera. There was also Ford Fiesta P AT(DCT) present too.

Below are few points of observation.
1. The certainly looks huge and has perfect dimension.
2. The car on display had tyres of size 205 55 ZR17 from Michelin PilotSport with 17" rims which is obvious. I don't think Ford would launch the car with 17 rims rather it would have Fiesta's 15 rims with bigger side walls to compensate. EcoSport and Fiesta would share the parts to keep the cost low.
3. The car on display didn't have the interiors done, from under carriage it was very much evident as there was a wooden ply instead of metal.
4. The car would come with 1.0 lt 3 cyl EcoBoost engine for petrol and 1.5 lt diesel engine from Fiesta.
5. Since the car's interiors aren't finished which was evident from the car on display the launch would be after/on diwali keeping festive season in mind when most people make there purchases.
6. The spare tyre is stuck back on the rear of EcoSport to give more boot space just like in other SUV eg. Tata Safari.
7. The dashboard is same as the new Fiesta, part sharing to keep cost low.

1st Set of pictures:
Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012496.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012497.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012498.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012499.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012500.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012501.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012502.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012503.jpg
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Old 28th January 2012, 18:29   #353
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

2nd set of pictures.

1 lt EcoBoost Engine
Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012504.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012505.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012506.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012507.jpg

Fiesta P AT(DCT)
Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012508.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012510.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012511.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012512.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-28012012513.jpg
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Old 28th January 2012, 19:50   #354
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Somehow considering the price levels of the current new fiesta it seems unlikely to start imaging the EcoSport to be lesser priced than it with more to offer. A lot of the price targets mentioned in the thread at various points of time peg it in at too low a price.

Yep then goofed up with the fiesta pricing but they can't really price it at the point that we all wish it to be at unless the fiesta prices are revisted prior to it's launch.
yesterday When I visited to ford showroom, the sales guy said that along with the automatic Fiesta launch there will be a price correction for the existing models as well.
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Old 28th January 2012, 20:45   #355
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
Allow me to quote some text from:
Quote:
In other words, this is an end-to-end vibration with respect to the center in cylinder 2.
It is a primary rocking couple.
Wonder why the picture shows a V6! Incidentally, balancing a V6 is very interesting. We have another variable to play around with, the V angle.


Quote:
Obviously, the solution used in the Ford Ecoboost 1.0 engine is different from the quoted text as they use an unbalanced flywheel instead of the Balancer Shaft and hence uses less components = less weight = less things that can break = less maintenance = less cost. (the last lines are my speculations)
Fail to see how a single rotating shaft can balance forces caused by reciprocating masses. (Obviously Ford have gone about it in a different way. Hence the reason for my interest.) Try balancing a single cylinder without a balance shaft!

Also, for NVH, engine mountings are as important as the engine itself. Have Ford done anything special with the mountings?

When comparing I3s and I4s, I think we need to look no further than the Marutis. I don't find any characteristic clatter in those. However, different cylinder configurations do have characteristic exhaust notes.

In an I3, the nature of power pulses (I think) causes more of a NVH problem than the rocking couple. Esp. noticeable at the lower rpms, not higher.

Regards
Sutripta

Last edited by suhaas307 : 28th January 2012 at 23:30. Reason: Required little editing. The 'Regards' was posted twice :)
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Old 29th January 2012, 20:01   #356
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Here are some pics from my side of the Ecosport on display in vashi. Was good to have met up with El Lobo as well. Spent around 2 hours on the pavilion talking various things with El Lobo and taking pics.

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01233.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01234.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01237.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01238.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01241.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01245.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01246.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01247.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01258.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01265.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01272.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01268.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01266.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01239.jpg

Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33-dsc01243.jpg
The last photo is the only clear shot I can get of the interiors through the tinted glass. The console looks very similar to the new fiesta.

Last edited by MX6 : 29th January 2012 at 20:06.
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Old 30th January 2012, 10:13   #357
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

El Lobo and MX6 - Thanks for clicking such wonderful pictures of my next car.
The Ecosport's proportions look just right, despite its compact dimensions.

- In the latest issue of ACI, Allan Mullaly said that all models of similar sizes will get the same engines. Maybe that means the Ecoboost engine may find its way into the Fiesta and maybe even the Figo.

Please note that this is just my (hopeful) interpretation of his statement.
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Old 30th January 2012, 19:51   #358
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Just got some interesting papers from england on the 1.0 L ecoboost.

The turbo can spool to 250,000 rpm very quickly and hence results in virtually no turbo lag.
Thats why i think peak torque is available from 1300 rpm to the end of the rev range.

Focus in the UK will incorporate active grille shutters and auto start/stop technology where in the engine stops completely when you stop at say a traffic light and then starts as soon as you press the accelerator pedal. So maybe these two technologies might find their way in the ecosport for further improvement in FE.

Last edited by Mustang.101 : 30th January 2012 at 19:55.
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Old 30th January 2012, 21:41   #359
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Default re: Ford EcoSport Preview @ Auto Expo 2012. EDIT : Indian Spy Pics on Pg. 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
Focus in the UK will incorporate active grille shutters and auto start/stop technology where in the engine stops completely when you stop at say a traffic light and then starts as soon as you press the accelerator pedal. So maybe these two technologies might find their way in the ecosport for further improvement in FE.
Would that be true for the manual transmission also? Assuming we would get an automatic only in the top range, most of us would miss this excellent feature in the affordable ranges.
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Old 31st January 2012, 00:44   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuboid

Would that be true for the manual transmission also? Assuming we would get an automatic only in the top range, most of us would miss this excellent feature in the affordable ranges.
We are not sure what we will get in india. As of now the car will be launching in manual transmission only followed by the dual clutch 3-6 months after the manual launch and this auto variant is still in the deciding phase as the auto box still requires extensive testing with this ecoboost engine.

Last edited by Mustang.101 : 31st January 2012 at 00:45.
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