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Old 1st April 2012, 22:14   #76
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinadJoshi View Post
If I may quote your own words just a couple of postings above : "Well, the designs i think were always from GM even in minority partnership." .... "Wuling Design has to be very well supported by GM Engineers/Engineering considering GM is the only partner with technology." That to me is pure personal speculation if anything.
Well, lets re-read that sentence.
a) GM is the Partner to SAIC and wuling (Factual)
b) GM has the technology (Factual)
c) Chinese companies do not have their own technologies (well discussed above in thread, assuming this to be fact)

so in that case Sentence d;
d) GM has to be the technology Partner;
has to be deduction as opposed to speculation


Quote:
Originally Posted by NinadJoshi View Post
In any case, it seems we should agree to disagree on some issues amicably.
Agree!!!!

Something that may be low cost to one maybe high cost to others and Chinese it seems to have mastered the art of low cost manufacturing. If the same product (vehicle or otherwise) someone manufactures in china and in India the cost would be vastly different anyway. I was shcoked to read the speculative cost of manufacturing of Apple Iphone in china being less than $7 (read Foxconn) even then its world's best selling phone. I reiterate its the design that matters not who manufactured and at how much cost.

Last edited by anu21v : 1st April 2012 at 22:18.
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Old 1st April 2012, 23:05   #77
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

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Originally Posted by anu21v View Post
Well, lets re-read that sentence.
a) GM is the Partner to SAIC and wuling (Factual)
b) GM has the technology (Factual)
c) Chinese companies do not have their own technologies (well discussed above in thread, assuming this to be fact)

so in that case Sentence d;
d) GM has to be the technology Partner;
has to be deduction as opposed to speculation


The vehicle is a SAIC designed and engineered one and NOT a GM design. GM is essentially going to re-badge it as a Chevy with minor tweaks and introduce in India. How do I know this? Well, my company does some work for GM & SAIC.

By the Way, I'm totally against Chinese companies coming over here. You may call me stubborn - but I do not want to buy anything that will ultimately help India's No 1 enemy.
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Old 1st April 2012, 23:20   #78
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

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Originally Posted by chennai-indian View Post
The vehicle is a SAIC designed and engineered one and NOT a GM design. GM is essentially going to re-badge it as a Chevy with minor tweaks and introduce in India. How do I know this? Well, my company does some work for GM & SAIC.
Bingo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chennai-indian View Post
I'm totally against Chinese companies coming over here. You may call me stubborn - but I do not want to buy anything that will ultimately help India's No 1 enemy.
Understand your sentiment completely, and I myself think that economic warfare is one of the great arts of war. But consider that GM-India is 50% SAIC, all existing GM vehicle owners have already profited China indirectly.
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Old 1st April 2012, 23:48   #79
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

Interesting discussion going on here. This year will increase competition in the MPV & the 5-seater SUVs segments. Now that the Enjoy will also sport the 1.3MJD, it's comparison with the Ertiga will be inevitable. My hunch is that the sales of Ertiga Vs. Enjoy will be pretty similar to the chart of Swift (not a proper 5 seater, good handling, good ***) Vs. Vista (sedan class, spacious, feature-rich).

GM killed it's minivans in the US way back in 2008. In India, the only models which make up decent numbers for GM are the Beat D & Tavera. Thus GM has not much to lose in introducing the SIAC vehicles under it's brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anu21v View Post
Something that may be low cost to one maybe high cost to others and Chinese it seems to have mastered the art of low cost manufacturing. If the same product (vehicle or otherwise) someone manufactures in china and in India the cost would be vastly different anyway. I was shcoked to read the speculative cost of manufacturing of Apple Iphone in china being less than $7 (read Foxconn) even then its world's best selling phone. I reiterate its the design that matters not who manufactured and at how much cost.
Chinese were (not anymore, ask Vietnam) the masters of low-cost manufacturing. But the most important point to note that they are NOT good designers (check the writing behind the iPhone). Barring the barring the 1.3 MJD engine, all other things must be SIAC-designed since GM's is no longer interested in making minivans and this vehicle is marketed from the GM-SIAC alliance !

Unless India has an FTA with China (to leverage on its low-cost manufacturing), the 'Enjoy' will be a highly localized vehicle (Designed in China, Assembled in India) for it to be competitively priced. Most of the MPV buyers will not be first-time car owners and only time will tell whom they'll go to for the second most important purchase (after home) in life.

Last edited by andromeda : 1st April 2012 at 23:53.
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Old 2nd April 2012, 06:44   #80
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

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Originally Posted by andromeda View Post
Chinese were (not anymore, ask Vietnam) the masters of low-cost manufacturing. But the most important point to note that they are NOT good designers (check the writing behind the iPhone).
Writing behind iPhone says, "Designed by Apple in California, Assembled in China." Absolutely no design inputs for iphone from Chinese companies. iPhone assember Foxconn in China is a just a manufacturing facility.
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Old 2nd April 2012, 09:42   #81
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

Not all chinese products are inferior. You get for what you pay. Remember China is one of the biggest hub for manufacturing the Apples products. Are they inferior? No, why? Because of the quality measures taken by Apple.

So, lets wait and watch.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 05:13   #82
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjothi View Post
Not all chinese products are inferior. You get for what you pay. Remember China is one of the biggest hub for manufacturing the Apples products. Are they inferior? No, why? Because of the quality measures taken by Apple.

So, lets wait and watch.
If Apple was a Chinese corp, would it have been the Apple as we know it?

The question we are discussing is more on the lines of if Apple was a Chinese low-cost electronics company (which it isn't, but for arguments sake in this context imagine Apple@Electronics = Wuling@Automobiles), would you have bought its tablets and phones without a lurking thought about quality?

And, suppose if the Chinese local and low-cost Apple had a majority stake in the Chino-American Motorola, would it not use the 'global' Motorola badge to push its low cost products into foreign markets?

In any case, lets wait and watch as you say. The Enjoy does seem to have the potential to make a mark in the "MPV" segment. Hopefully Chevy will show the prudence to make sure that the low cost Wuling Hong Guang does not bring them disgrace in its Enjoy avatar. They say the engines for the Enjoy will be manufactured at Talegaon, so at least that aspect of manufacturing & quality will be in GM-India's hands which is a good thing.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 07:29   #83
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinadJoshi View Post
If Apple was a Chinese corp, would it have been the Apple as we know it?

The question we are discussing is more on the lines of if Apple was a Chinese low-cost electronics company (which it isn't, but for arguments sake in this context imagine Apple@Electronics = Wuling@Automobiles), would you have bought its tablets and phones without a lurking thought about quality?

And, suppose if the Chinese local and low-cost Apple had a majority stake in the Chino-American Motorola, would it not use the 'global' Motorola badge to push its low cost products into foreign markets?

In any case, lets wait and watch as you say. The Enjoy does seem to have the potential to make a mark in the "MPV" segment. Hopefully Chevy will show the prudence to make sure that the low cost Wuling Hong Guang does not bring them disgrace in its Enjoy avatar. They say the engines for the Enjoy will be manufactured at Talegaon, so at least that aspect of manufacturing & quality will be in GM-India's hands which is a good thing.


That's exactly the point here. Enjoy is a chinese design being manufactured in India. Hopefully we can expect NO significant manufacturing issues (can we say 'niggles' ?) since this process passes through GM India's quality control. The design might have been proven by now in the Chinese market, but only time will tell if that works in the Indian scenario.

Here's how the MPV market may pan out in the future

Compact MPV - Ertiga
MPVs for the Private buyer - Innova, Evalia, Enjoy ?
MPVs for the fleet segment - Stile, Xylo, Enjoy ?
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Old 3rd April 2012, 08:29   #84
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

This is a vehicle that shows us the signs and progress of globalisation.

A car that will hopefully help the indian MPV market. It looks like a well designed and built vehicle.

I will say that Chinese production quality has come a long way.

For those criticising the Chinese, just remember one thing. The Japanese started off like the Chinese. They too ripped off other people's designs and products. They too made cheap products. Heck, they even named a town or area (can't remember which) as U.S.A, so that the products manufactured there could be labelled as "Made in U.S.A" without people claiming it was a lie. Today, Japan and Germany are the undisputed engineering masters of the world, with Japan enjoying a more reliable tag and Germany a more expensive tag.

I don't see why China would need to enter the market using a back door route using an American company, when we have Premier willing to bring in the Rio and re-badge it. At least with GM you get their image and reliability, which is definitely way better than Premier.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 10:53   #85
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Default Re: General Motors to launch Enjoy by year end

This thread gives me a feeling we are doing to China, what the US is doing to us in the service sector. They do not like outsourcing, just because they cannot match our skills at the price point we offer.
So we should doubt Chinese products because we cannot make them at their price point? Probably majority of the components in the laptop I am using type in this post are made in China. And the American companies (Dell/Apple) would not be using the Chinese components if they did not meet the quality specs.

Also, though this is originally a Chinese designed (?) and manufactured car, it surely will have large amount of localization in India, if it has to compete on the price front. So I think we can lay the "China made car" perception to rest, and look forward to some good action in the MPV segment.
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Old 5th April 2012, 00:06   #86
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Default Re: Chevrolet Sail (Hatchback) & Chevrolet MPV : Auto Expo 2012

spotted a heavily camoflaged xylo-ish muv with GJ-17 reg in trivandrum of all places. Am guessing its one of these. it sped past the opposite direction in city traffic, but am not sure it had the same lines
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Old 5th April 2012, 09:30   #87
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Default Re: Chevrolet Sail (Hatchback) & Chevrolet MPV : Auto Expo 2012

I also saw this. It looked way smaller than Innova - little bigger than Jazz.
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Old 14th April 2012, 10:40   #88
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Default Re: Chevrolet Sail (Hatchback) & Chevrolet MPV : Auto Expo 2012

Spotted this GJ reg MPV test mule in chennai.

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Chevrolet Sail (Hatchback) & Chevrolet MPV (Enjoy) : Auto Expo 2012-scoop2.jpg
Chevrolet Sail (Hatchback) & Chevrolet MPV (Enjoy) : Auto Expo 2012-scoop3.jpg
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Old 14th April 2012, 11:41   #89
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Default Re: Chevrolet Sail (Hatchback) & Chevrolet MPV : Auto Expo 2012

Good catch Badboyscad. The test mule is the Chevy Enjoy.

I am a bit confused on the interiors of Enjoy. I see plane jack interiors in some websites such as this

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and some others (cardekho.com) showcase a modern fully loaded one.

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If the Enjoy comes with the modern interiors, it will sell well, inspite of its "no-new" looks.
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Old 14th April 2012, 13:58   #90
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Default Re: Chevrolet Sail (Hatchback) & Chevrolet MPV : Auto Expo 2012

Chevy Sail in my opinion is aimed at consumers who are going into the Etios line up. If priced well, it will receive the same response as the Beat. With not much competition in MPV segment, the Chevy Enjoy is a good alternative to Innova and Xylo. If decked up well with tech goodies, it will be a hit.
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