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Old 14th March 2006, 20:36   #106
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well after providing so much for 7 I dont think there is room to add abs, airbags and EBD.

But I certainly feel there should be a premium version with all these goodies alongwith cruise control for 11lacs.
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Old 14th March 2006, 21:20   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
A good suspension setup should ensure good ride quality without affecting handling and safety.

That being said, the objective of any multi-link suspension is to provide two conflicting characteristics, simultaneously:
1. High lateral stiffness (resistance to deflection due to side forces) for excellent handling
2. Reasonable longitudinal compliance, for improved ride quality with less NVH.
The information you have gathered refers to an IRS.
The term 'Multilink' commonly refers to an independent rear setup which the Scorpio is not. Its still very much a live axle. High lateral stiffness can also be obtained in a hotchkiss
by adding a 'panhard rod'. Hotchkiss can also have longitudinal compliance because of the shackle assembly which causes the axle to move rearward as it travels up. To add to that, you can also have rubber bushing based compliance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
The elastokinematic characteristics are usually tuned up to minimise camber and track changes and correctly tune toe variations.

What toe variations?
The term SUV shouldn't be misused for anything without 4-wheel-drive.
That said, the Scorpio being a rear-drive station wagon, the central axis of elasticity at its rear axle should be positioned properly to toe-out under harsh acceleration and toe-in to improve stability when you let go the accelerator pedal.
Its a solid axle, so you're gonna have zero camber change and zero track change. As far as toe change, you get it only in roll depending on the kinematics of the 2 lateral rods and you want 'Toe-in' in the outer wheel to promote understeer. There is no toe change during braking or accleration.

Tata has this setup on their Sierra more than a decade and a half ago. As far as 4x4, there should be no reason not to offer it because the front suspension has not changed.

As far as ABS, there is no question that every vehicle needs it. But Mahindra's decision is probably driven by market research which showed that a large percentage of their buyer demographic is not aware of it and hence will not take the option. More over, in India safety is associated with the size and bulk of the machine which the Scorpio has plenty of.

Last edited by Mpower : 14th March 2006 at 21:25.
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Old 14th March 2006, 22:08   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suman
Quote:
Originally Posted by xentric
When I logon to the website the flash intro plays and then just stops! Anyone facing the same problem?
The site is AWFULLY slow to navigate, maybe a lot of people logged in today....I had a hell of a time trying to download their brochure, would you believe its a 45 MB file that will just JAM your printer (and network if you are on one) if you try printing it.

Dunno if it will work but try hitting the button "Skip intro" so you go on to the main page, you will not be missing anything significant
Dear friends:

I solved my issues with the Mahindra Scorpio website and its oddball "rar-compressed pdf". Here is my preliminary understanding.

Mahindra is fielding three models:
1) Scorpio STD
2) Scorpio DX
3) Scorpio SLX

The base STD model has no plastic cladding on the body sides. Also it has no voice-assist system nor remote locking, no air dams, no mud flaps, no rooftop ski rack, no power windows. It’s available with a fixed middle rear seat and optional sideways benches.

The DX has black unpainted plastic cladding, airdams, mudflaps, power windows, rear-window wiper, and legroom adjustable middle row seat.

And the SLX is Mahindra’s fully-loaded model with body-color painted plastic cladding, airdams, mudflaps, power windows, rear-window wiper, and legroom adjustable middle row seat. It also has the exclusive voice-assist system, remote locking, intelligent rain-sensing wipers, illumination delay (Mahindra calls it "Follow-me-home")

All three models are available in black color. Mahindra calls it "Noble Black". And the metallic "Engine Silver" color. The DX is available in "Apple Red" color. The top-end SLX model is available in the hot "Passion Red" and metallic "Amber Red".

The two-wheel-drive model has coil springs at all four wheels and an anti-roll bar. The rear has the Lotus-designed multi-link coil-spring suspension.

The four-wheel-drive model has torsion bar front (like the old Ambasador) and coil springs and Lotus-designed multi-link coil-spring suspension at the rear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by triggercool
Does anyone have pic of new scorpio.......pls
For your viewing pleasure here are a few pictures of the new coil-sprung Scorpio.








Cheers…
Ram
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Old 14th March 2006, 22:49   #109
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@Mpower; isn't that a panhard rod in the rear suspension pic of the scorpio? (rod connecting link from top right axle tube towards left chassis long member, parallel to chassis cross member/tube).

p.s- do you think that the parallel mounting for the rear damper might prove stressful in the long run due to it's rigidity (check out the chassis mounts)?
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Old 14th March 2006, 23:18   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
The information you have gathered refers to an IRS.
The term 'Multilink' commonly refers to an independent rear setup which the Scorpio is not. Its still very much a live axle.
Mpower, you're absolutely right on that! You would have noticed that the picture in my post...



...clearly shows that the Scorpio has a live axle rear-end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
High lateral stiffness can also be obtained in a hotchkiss by adding a 'panhard rod'. Hotchkiss can also have longitudinal compliance because of the shackle assembly which causes the axle to move rearward as it travels up. To add to that, you can also have rubber bushing based compliance.
You're not wrong on that either! I do have my drawings of Panhard rods and Watts linkages locating live axles from pre-Internet decades now. I know that Hotchkiss have longitudinal "parallelogram" compliance via the shackle-hangers on which the leaf-spring assemblies are hung à-la-Mahindra MM540.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
As far as ABS, there is no question that every vehicle needs it.
Mpower, I would like to humbly submit that I have been driving cars for over 30 years and hold driving licenses in the US, the Netherlands, Australia and Singapore in addition to India. The only serious collision in over 3 decades I've had happened in Sunnyvale, CA because of ABS.
With over a million miles of off-road, freeway, desert and ice-driving experience on me, I posit that ABS is unnecessary in every vehicle. My uncle who holds worldwide patents in electronic traction control at the erstwhile Delphi automotive also agrees with me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
But Mahindra's decision is probably driven by market research which showed that a large percentage of their buyer demographic is not aware of it and hence will not take the option. More over, in India safety is associated with the size and bulk of the machine which the Scorpio has plenty of.
Our opinions on Mahindra's decision or lack of it, based on buyer ignorance and misperceptions of threat to life and limb is pure conjecture, not to mention consumer-hostile -- What they don't understand won't harm'em -- thinking!
Would Ralph Nader approve?

Last edited by Ram : 14th March 2006 at 23:26.
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Old 15th March 2006, 00:06   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veyron1
don't think that design is flawed in the primary; the qualis had almost the same design (i think), and it's handling was okay; mahindra just skewed the dynamics from the design stage itself, i guess......
You are bang on Veyron. Suspension design is sort of like cooking up a gourmet dish. People think that by adding the same ingredients as the master-chef they can match the taste. But sadly its not
true...need to know how to put if together and tune it. People have been trying to copy BMWs dynamics for years but still nobody has come close. Heck the Ambassador has Hotchkiss and people even today swear by the ride quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by veyron1
@Mpower; isn't that a panhard rod in the rear suspension pic of the scorpio? (rod connecting link from top right axle tube towards left chassis long member, parallel to chassis cross member/tube).

p.s- do you think that the parallel mounting for the rear damper might prove stressful in the long run due to it's rigidity (check out the chassis mounts)?
It does look like a panhard rod although I am not able to see it completely. (looks like a CAD model) In any case it has to have either that or a watts linkage to locate the axle laterally.

I'm not sure I understood your 2nd question ?? You mean parallel to the spring.
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Old 15th March 2006, 10:43   #112
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guys, i would suggest anyone interested in technical stuff to go through the last seven posts... its awesome. though i couldnt fathom even 10% of what is being said, i know for sure i am in company some real auto buffs in this forum.

good indepth analysis guys... keep it going. i luv tbhp.

regards
tifosi.
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Old 16th March 2006, 00:59   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
Mpower, I would like to humbly submit that I have been driving cars for over 30 years and hold driving licenses in the US, the Netherlands, Australia and Singapore in addition to India.
With over a million miles of off-road, freeway, desert and ice-driving experience on me, I posit that ABS is unnecessary in every vehicle. My uncle who holds worldwide patents in electronic traction control at the erstwhile Delphi automotive also agrees with me.
RAM, I guess I should have worded my sentence differently. I meant to say every vehicle out there could benefit from ABS.
Keep in mind, the average driver is not as skilled as you when it comes to modulating brakes to prevent lockup.

I myself have been living in the American midwest with its snowy winters for many years now. Not sure about Holland, but we sure get more snow than
Singapore, Australia and California combined. I feel my ABS coming on at least 10 times a year. ABS is like having insurance policy, just because you never used
it in 10 years dosen't mean that you could have gotten away without it.............. because you never know when you are going to need it.

Reasons why ABS is needed in India (even though we dont have snow)
  • Chaotic and unruly traffic means more 'sudden brake' situations
  • Dogs, cattle and crazy homo-sapiens running across the street.
  • Presence of dust/mud and fine gravel on roads = low mu = which advances the lockup threshold.
  • Poor road design causing rain water not to drain properly = puddles = low mu = which advances the lockup threshold.
  • FE obsession which leads to 'undertyred' cars = which advances the lockup threshold.
  • Soft suspensions means more brake dive = more load transfer to front = which advances the lockup threshold.
As far as the Scorpio's buyer demographic goes, that's purely my opinion based on what I observed in Bangalore and Chennai. The urban sophisticate types
who drive Honda Citys and have travelled abroad and used the latest cars, know about things like ABS and demand it and dont mind paying 30K extra for it.
Mahindra owners tend to be the more dhoti clad rustic types. (hope I am not stirring up something here!) and care more about 7 seater capability and diesel economy.

If you look at the evolution of the automobile or any other product, things have been constantly getting better. There are many features today that
we take for granted like servo disc brakes, power steering, 5 speed, crash tested bodies, EFI, etc etc. None of these were around on cars 20 years ago but still life went on. Some cars had it but they were considered premium and luxury just like ABS today. As we go into the future Airbags and ABS etc will become standard features on most cars and our kids will take them for granted. Its all about making progress in our standard of living.
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Old 16th March 2006, 10:31   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
ABS is like having insurance policy, just because you never used
it in 10 years dosen't mean that you could have gotten away without it.............. because you never know when you are going to need it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
If you look at the evolution of the automobile or any other product, things have been constantly getting better............... As we go into the future Airbags and ABS etc will become standard features on most cars and our kids will take them for granted. Its all about making progress in our standard of living.
Spot on Mpower, very well stated
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Old 16th March 2006, 10:41   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
RAM, I guess I should have worded my sentence differently. I meant to say every vehicle out there could benefit from ABS.
Keep in mind, the average driver is not as skilled as you when it comes to modulating brakes to prevent lockup.

I myself have been living in the American midwest with its snowy winters for many years now. Not sure about Holland, but we sure get more snow than
Singapore, Australia and California combined. I feel my ABS coming on at least 10 times a year. ABS is like having insurance policy, just because you never used
it in 10 years dosen't mean that you could have gotten away without it.............. because you never know when you are going to need it.

Reasons why ABS is needed in India (even though we dont have snow)
  • Chaotic and unruly traffic means more 'sudden brake' situations
  • Dogs, cattle and crazy homo-sapiens running across the street.
  • Presence of dust/mud and fine gravel on roads = low mu = which advances the lockup threshold.
  • Poor road design causing rain water not to drain properly = puddles = low mu = which advances the lockup threshold.
  • FE obsession which leads to 'undertyred' cars = which advances the lockup threshold.
  • Soft suspensions means more brake dive = more load transfer to front = which advances the lockup threshold.
As far as the Scorpio's buyer demographic goes, that's purely my opinion based on what I observed in Bangalore and Chennai. The urban sophisticate types
who drive Honda Citys and have travelled abroad and used the latest cars, know about things like ABS and demand it and dont mind paying 30K extra for it.
Mahindra owners tend to be the more dhoti clad rustic types. (hope I am not stirring up something here!) and care more about 7 seater capability and diesel economy.

If you look at the evolution of the automobile or any other product, things have been constantly getting better. There are many features today that
we take for granted like servo disc brakes, power steering, 5 speed, crash tested bodies, EFI, etc etc. None of these were around on cars 20 years ago but still life went on. Some cars had it but they were considered premium and luxury just like ABS today. As we go into the future Airbags and ABS etc will become standard features on most cars and our kids will take them for granted. Its all about making progress in our standard of living.
Mpower,

Very well articulated thoughts. Thank you.

You're absolutely right that servo disc brakes, power steering, 5-speed, crash tested bodies, EFI, etc have improved the car experience in India.

And you're absolutely spot-on about more 'sudden brake' situations.

I don't have any problem with ABS and airbags per se. They're well-designed, continuously improved and actually work in
exactingly stringent designs like e.g. an E-class Mercedes-Benz.


How easy to goof?
But 5-speed gearboxes are simpler contraptions, inherently amenable to experimenting with idler and driven gear ratios.
And EFI can actually be independently developed overseas and incorporated into an engine by an Indian manufacturer.

However, both ABS and airbags are not "import and bolt-on" commodities.
Both ABS and airbags need to be customized for the specific cartype they're used in.
Isn't that situation, completely beyond our manufacturers commercial mindsets?

Early airbags were proved to be of questionable value. In some situations they actually caused harm.

Unlike in a developed country, most Indian road surfaces (or lack thereof) exhibit excessively wide diversity in quality.
ABS functions best on homogeneous surface -- Smooth concrete without holes or large cracks or dense, smooth smooth finish asphalt, especially sealed with "Jennite". An old asphalt surface with an open, porous, broken surface covered with loose gravel can confuse the ABS.

Wet mud, spread out loose sandy patches, mixes of broken asphalt, bullock-cart-tracks and loose gravel on third-world roads can actually defeat the value of ABS, result in longer braking distances and crashes.

ABS is by no means perfect. And low budget-cars are likely to have the world's simplest ABS systems.


Re-education
ABS requires the driver to re-learn his feel for the car.
Otherwise he can expose himself and his passengers to potential disaster.
Proper usage of ABS brakes in a critical stop situation requires the driver to press the pedal hard and hold it down continuously despite unusual sounds and vibrating pedal, allowing the system to rapidly and automatically pump the brakes, until the vehicle stops.

How alien is that to us?

An “ABS event” will startle the typical Indian driver with its unusual sounds and feel. The driver typically reacts by easing off the brake pedal or, worse yet, pumping it.
Both of these reactions will lead to longer stopping distances and a potential crash!

In cars with conventional brakes, drivers typically pump the brakes.
Who is going to teach every Indian driver the correct, “Stab, Stay and Steer”, ABS technique?

The wedge of sand and loose gravel built up by the locked wheel reduces stopping distance. You lose that advantage with ABS and see increased stopping distances.
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Old 16th March 2006, 14:13   #116
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Guys, when I check out the gallery on the site, one of the pictures show a number of (audio?) controls on the steering wheel; this is not specifically mentioned as one of the "43" improvements though so I'm wondering......is this already available as an option on the top end model? Tifosi, any idea? Or is this an enhancement?
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Old 17th March 2006, 08:48   #117
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Watch out competition. Mahindra is riding the fast lane.

I just hope they gey a good volume segment sedan.


If Korea is proud of hyundai
If japan is proud of Toyota,Nissan, Honda
If Italy is proud of Fiat, ferrari and lamborghini
If US if proud of the big three
If germany is proud of MB and bMW

Then Indians are proud of tata and mahindra too.

Its India afterall
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Old 17th March 2006, 09:00   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
Watch out competition. Mahindra is riding the fast lane.
If Korea is proud of hyundai
If japan is proud of Toyota,Nissan, Honda
If Italy is proud of Fiat, ferrari and lamborghini
If US if proud of the big three
If germany is proud of MB and bMW

Then Indians are proud of tata and mahindra too.

Its India afterall
Defienetly M&M are coming big.
Can't wait to read road test of new version, hopefully next months magzines will be having it.
I should mention, I loved the idea of sliding middle seats. Clever idea to overcome legspace problem.

Quote:
I just hope they gey a good volume segment sedan.
Logan?
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Old 17th March 2006, 16:03   #119
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Good thing is that Mahindra is taking bookings for the Scorpio CEO and Passion et all.

Here is the link : -

http://www.mahindrascorpio.com/autoexpo/index.htm

Last edited by BUSA : 17th March 2006 at 16:04.
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Old 17th March 2006, 22:09   #120
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Hey guys,

Tried out the new Scorpio. Nothing really different performance wise. What is commendable is the new rear-suspension setup. Under hard-braking (and i mean panic stops) the car tends to brake in a straight'er' line, something the older Scorpio did by turning nearly 180 degrees. But wheels do lock all said and done. Middle row seats benefit with adjustments to slide them forward/backward and recline. Ride quality seems same, and handling feels more re-assured in whatever driving i did.

Worth the moolah? Considering prices have been frozen for six weeks, this is by-far the best Scorp till date. The looks are love-it/hate-it and if you can live with it, it definitely feels worth it.

Revv
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