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Old 17th February 2012, 11:47   #46
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

Update: We received the following letter today. The letter however was sent to us by
Abhijeet Bartakke, Manager – Area Service West, Volkswagen Group Sales India Pvt. Ltd.



Greetings from Tornado Motors Pvt. Ltd.
We would like to clarify following points related to the Brake Disc:

1. For effective breaking the Brake Discs are made of bare metal to provide good friction surface.
2. Unlike the body shell of the vehicle, which is coated with paint and is treated with many anti corrosion layers which protects the bare metal of the vehicle body from external agents and prevents corrosion, the Disc brakes cannot be covered by any such protective anti corrosion layers or paint. If we try to cover the Discs with any anti corrosion material, it will lead to poor or even zero braking effect.
3. This means that the Brake Discs are exposed to the atmosphere and do not have any protection from corrosion.
4. This is a characteristic of Disc brakes and unfortunately there is no further brake through in the technology available to avoid corrosion of the Brake Discs in mass production cars globally.
5. The brake Discs corrode all the time and the generated corrosion is cleared off as the vehicle is used and brakes are applied. Corrosion is a natural process and cannot be avoided in case of brake discs.
6. However, if the corrosion happens on the Brake Discs, the only reason attributed is less usage of vehicle and there is no other reason for the brake discs to corrode.

We would once again like to assure you that the corrosion to the Brake Disc is not due to manufacturing defect and request your kind understanding on the same.
However, we request you to kindly visit our workshop for further discussion in this regards and to resolve this issue amicably to your satisfaction.
We assure you best of our attention at all times.

Regards,
Prashant Dalvi.
Service Advisor.
Tornado Motors Pvt Ltd.
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Old 17th February 2012, 12:04   #47
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

This is ridiculous. Technical jargon to fool a customer that's all.

Everyone knows that discs get rusted but not when the car is in use daily. Also Navin pls. read through the warranty booklet carefully. Is it mentioned that brake discs are not covered under warranty. If no then they cannot give this excuse.

Also I don't see the clarification anywhere in the mail regard to your query of the car being a demo piece. Where's the justification that the VIn no. shows 31st March 2010 whereas you took delivery in december.
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Old 17th February 2012, 12:08   #48
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

Only corrosion cannot eat through brake discs in 10 months irrespective of usage. We have bare metal sheets lying in our yard exposed to the elements for years and they dont get corroded like this.
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Old 17th February 2012, 12:10   #49
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

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Originally Posted by scooby05 View Post
One thing needs to be checked, does the cleaner empty the leftover water onto the wheels every morning, and is the car closer to the sea, and not used everyday.
I would agree with members here, that the metallurgy of the steel used in Jap cars are much better than the European counterparts.
1. Yes the car is close to the sea
2. The car is driven 6 days a week. 7 if my son is visiting my father in law
3. The same person who uses the VW Beetle also used a Swift for 5 years and an Audi for more than 10 (maybe 15) without any issues with brake-rust. My wife's Opel Sail 1.6 is parked at my FIL's house and used once a month and does not face any such issue. My FIL's neighbour is an airline employee and her sparringly used Corolla has never faced any such issue.

BTW VW's Passat Highline was on the top of my list (I had gone so far as to choose my colour and options) to replace my Skoda Octavia vRS. I am now considering waiting for the new Camry or getting the Nissan Teana.
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Old 17th February 2012, 12:22   #50
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
1. Yes the car is close to the sea
2. The car is driven 6 days a week. 7 if my son is visiting my father in law
3. The same person who uses the VW Beetle also used a Swift for 5 years and an Audi for more than 10 (maybe 15) without any issues with brake-rust. My wife's Opel Sail 1.6 is parked at my FIL's house and used once a month and does not face any such issue. My FIL's neighbour is an airline employee and her sparringly used Corolla has never faced any such issue.

BTW VW's Passat Highline was on the top of my list (I had gone so far as to choose my colour and options) to replace my Skoda Octavia vRS. I am now considering waiting for the new Camry or getting the Nissan Teana.
Sad and Strange. This has to be bad metallurgy! The casting is too micro porous, but still VW will have enough excuses.
I have a Camry at home use, and she is super comfortable and reliable, though the handling is typically bad Japanese.
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Old 17th February 2012, 16:41   #51
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

This whole episode just makes one wary of a couple of things:
1. Car companies whose after-sales service is a question mark
2. CBU imports - even if there is no trouble, the wait for parts and dealer inexperience because of limited sales just don't make them worth it.

We can crib all we want about companies like Honda but they are miles ahead of this type of rubbish. I would humbly submit that even Skoda is better than this - at least one knows the pitfalls and expects poor behavior. It's worse when one expects better and gets lousy service.
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Old 17th February 2012, 19:56   #52
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

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Originally Posted by KINI View Post
Was a PDI done before delivery?? If it were a display/TD vehicle, wouldn't it have been noticed during PDI??
Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
The PDI would have been done by the dealer right? My BIL/FIL would have trusted the dealer's PDI report.
I guess he meant T-BHP PDI.

The other day there was traffic jam near Lalbagh (Bangalore). Reason: A Beetle had suddenly stopped (just like that ) and people were not able to move it aside easily. The look on the owners face conveyed a lot.

Its sad to see VW letting down customers (whatever segment cars). I can see that you are taking the diplomatic route to get things resolved amicably. I hope you don't get tied up in a legal case the way Harish is stuck with Skoda. Have you quoted in your correspondence to VW about your FIL's experience(usage) with the other cars (you are comparing a Swift with Beetle, at least that should provoke them). How about the social networking route? FB (https://www.facebook.com/Volkswagenindia) & Twitter (@volkswagenindia). I did not want to post there without your knowledge.
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Old 17th February 2012, 21:18   #53
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

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Originally Posted by rohi_rao View Post
I can see that you are taking the diplomatic route to get things resolved amicably.

How about the social networking route? FB (https://www.facebook.com/Volkswagenindia) & Twitter (@volkswagenindia). I did not want to post there without your knowledge.
My goal here is to have the judder issue resolved quickly and for VW and/or their dealer to accept some responsibilty for this.

We have to remember that my FIL's original complaint was about judder when braking, It was the VW service center (Tornado) that claimed that this judder is due to the rust on the discs and it is the VW service center (Tornado) that claims that replacing the discs will solve the "judder when braking" problem. Hence we need to ensure that VW and their service center will do what it takes to fix the judder if replacing the discs doesn't work.


If as VW and/or their dealer claims the Disc Brakes have rusted due to lack of use (which itself is not correct) I cannot understand how the same brakes on the same car survived in pristine condition from April 2010 (date of manufacture) to December 2010 (date of delivery) - a period of 8-9 months with little or no use (few km driven).
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Old 17th February 2012, 21:23   #54
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

Navin, Sir did you send the car to VW downtown? I don't think Tornado will change their mind, pretty useless dealership I must say.
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Old 17th February 2012, 22:04   #55
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

This sounds like a case of a bad dealer palming off a TD car and a company that seems to pay more attention to their dealers than their clients. Though going by what somebody else said in this thread, even their attention to their dealers is pathetic.

I would suggest avoiding legal action unless absolutely necessary as you might just wind up the way harishv and his 3 year missing skoda has gone, given that both these cars are part of VAG. I know we should not think like that but such is life.

If there is more than one VW dealer in town, try taking the car to another one and see if they can help you out.
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Old 18th February 2012, 02:54   #56
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pganapathy View Post
This sounds like a case of a bad dealer palming off a TD car and a company that seems to pay more attention to their dealers than their clients. Though going by what somebody else said in this thread, even their attention to their dealers is pathetic.
I believe their attitude is because the vehicle in question is one that they have discontinued in some parts of the world (2010 was the last model year of the VW Beetle in some regions). It still does not mean that the firm should be able to dishonor its warranty commitments because their focus should be on their customers and not on their products.

If I were to buy a vehicle, I would pick something mainstream simply because if the company has dealt with a problem for a certain percentage of their cars, they would fix the defect in the next model year or introduce a change for vehicles in their production lines to fix the problem. With CBU vehicles, the feedback cycle gets much longer.
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Old 18th February 2012, 08:11   #57
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Neither have I on my 8 year old Octy. BTW here are some pics of the wheels. From what I can see through the wheel spokes there seems to be just a little rust.
Dear Navin,

I am not a technical guy, but I had experienced the same juddering issue when braking on my Indica few years back. When I checked around, my friend who is an Auto mobile Engineer by profession. Said that the main reasons why the Breaks Judder are, if there are lines or uneven scratches on the Disk or dent or uneven ware of the Disk. Which can be caused by many reasons, but the most common reasons are.

1) Heavy breaking when the Disks are cold. (this is what I suspect)
2) Small gravel stuck in Brake Pads, which is a high possibility in India.
3) Rusting of Disk in sparing ling used car. (In your case it not true as the Rust as per the pic is minimal and as expected on Disk brakes)

As far as my Break Judder problem, could be felt only in speeds excess of 110Kmph, and the reason as agreed by my Mom, is that she braked very hard one day as she just took off in the early morning from home to temple, and ever since that the problem started.

Solutions, go to a local friendly lath guy, and ask him to check the surface of the Disk for any damages, and smooth-en it. It worked for me with few 100's. Should also work for you.

I hope this helps.

Note:- When I checked I understand Disk are not under warranty.
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Old 18th February 2012, 10:40   #58
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
Navin, Sir did you send the car to VW downtown?
I figured that since we had escalated the matter to VW itself they would respond favourably and we could continue to use Tornado. The matter (to me) is now not with the Tornado but VW. Should I still investigate the Downtown VW option?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rajchetan View Post
Said that the main reasons why the Breaks Judder are, if there are lines or uneven scratches on the Disk or dent or uneven ware of the Disk. Which can be caused by many reasons, but the most common reasons are.

1) Heavy breaking when the Disks are cold. (this is what I suspect)
2) Small gravel stuck in Brake Pads, which is a high possibility in India.
3) Rusting of Disk in sparing ling used car. (In your case it not true as the Rust as per the pic is minimal and as expected on Disk brakes)
Agreed that Disc Brakes and shoes are not covered under warranty, I understand (as VW has also stated) that Disc Brakes are made of bare metal to provide adequate friction for braking and hence can rust (unlike the painted body of the car or treated underbody) quicker that the rest of the car.

but....as I have said before
  1. The car in question is used 6-7 days a week. Even if this use is for a few km per day any minor rust forming on the discs would be rubbed of due to friction once the brakes are applied a few times (which common in Mumbai traffic).
  2. From what we can see the Brake Discs are pitted and not rusted (as claimed by Tornado) and this leads us to believe that there may be some material defect in the brake discs.
  3. If as the dealer claims there was rust shouldn't the dealer have first tried skimming the brakes before even suggesting a change of Brake discs at less than 10,000km?
  4. The car was manufactured on 31st March 2010. If as the dealer and VW claim, the Disc Brakes have rusted due to lack of use (which itself is not correct) I cannot understand how the same brakes on the same car survived in pristine condition from April 2010 (date of manufacture) to December 2010 (date of delivery) - a period of 8-9 months with little or no use (few km driven).
  5. I recognise that our original complaint is about judder when braking (at about 40 kmph), It was the VW service center (Tornado) that claimed that this judder is due to the rust on the discs and it is the VW service center (Tornado) that claims that replacing the discs will solve the "judder when braking" problem. Hence we need to ensure that VW and their service center will do what it takes to fix the judder if replacing the discs doesn't work.

How often has anyone had to replace Disc Brakes on a car in less than 1 year (or 5000 km)?

Last edited by navin : 18th February 2012 at 10:42.
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Old 18th February 2012, 12:11   #59
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
I figured that since we had escalated the matter to VW itself they would respond favourably and we could continue to use Tornado. The matter (to me) is now not with the Tornado but VW. Should I still investigate the Downtown VW option?
Definitely, VW still seems to be talking only to Tornado and going by what the Tornado service people and recommending. VW Downtown may just come up with a different conclusion. Its worth a shot.
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Old 18th February 2012, 18:31   #60
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Default Re: VW Beetle requires new Brake Discs in 10 months!

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Originally Posted by k_nitin_r View Post
I believe their attitude is because the vehicle in question is one that they have discontinued in some parts of the world (2010 was the last model year of the VW Beetle in some regions). It still does not mean that the firm should be able to dishonor its warranty commitments because their focus should be on their customers and not on their products.

If I were to buy a vehicle, I would pick something mainstream simply because if the company has dealt with a problem for a certain percentage of their cars, they would fix the defect in the next model year or introduce a change for vehicles in their production lines to fix the problem. With CBU vehicles, the feedback cycle gets much longer.
Nitin, no doubt you are right about their attitude but this just seems stupid to me.

Firstly, tyres and brakes are probably from the VW parts bin which means that if they have had problems like this before, they should know how to resolve it. I mean, just because they discontinued the Beetle does not mean they stopped using those tyres and brakes and will have it in some other car available in India.

Secondly with regards to CBU vehicles, the feedback cycle should be shorter, IF VW INDIA TALK TO VW GERMANY AND ASK FOR HELP. The point being CBU vehicles are invariably being sold in more than one market at the same time and therefore there should be more feedback coming in from various sources.

The one thing that truly worries me about VAG is the way they seem to be very pathetic in their A.S.S. In South Africa VW had a really brilliant A.S.S and they were one of the best. Maybe it is a case of horses for courses. They might have better staff there, and in addition, their manufacturing plant there was huge. The VW Golf was one of the best selling models in SA for a couple of years and this would have suffered dramatically if their A.S.S was bad no doubt so somebody somewhere saw reason and ensured that it was effective.
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