Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th February 2012, 17:13   #16
Distinguished - BHPian
 
libranof1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: All over!
Posts: 3,742
Thanked: 2,872 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick79 View Post
Its not just tuning. The entire body shell and even the chassis are different. To achieve a specific performance requirement, one can just not get the desired results by only tuning. The body dynamics play a very major role.
Yep. Read below; I meant to put the same thought across.

Quote:
Originally Posted by libranof1987 View Post
but it's how they are built that could define them as MUV or SUV : again, for branding purposes.
libranof1987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 17:20   #17
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,758
Thanked: 89,447 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

The term MUV (multi utility vehicle) is derived from MPV (multi purpose vehicle). Generally, I'd use the MUV / MPV tag for "van like" cars like the Innova, Xylo, Omni etc.

However, I do see the thread starter's point and consider the Sumo more of an SUV than an MUV. I guess it's about the body style, and the Sumo has more than a hint of an SUV to it.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 17:22   #18
BHPian
 
koushik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 145
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: why Tata Safari categorized as SUV and Sumo as MUV?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick79 View Post
Agreed. As mentioned earlier, though the aggregates are similar, they are tuned more for performance in Safari than Sumo.
For eg,
1. The torque is 250Nm @ 1660 -2000rpm in Sumo while its 320NM @ 1700 - 2700 rpm. This shows Safari is more comfortable in higher cruising speeds too, unlike Sumo.
2. The GC is 190 for Sumo where its 205mm in Safari. Again a higher advantage of Safari for Off Roading.
3. Though the Gear Box is similar G-76 - 5/4.1 with overdrive in both, the safari has Synchros in addition.
4. The length of Sumo, 4258mm, is shorter than Safari @ 4650mm. This translates in to lesser leg room and more passenger carrying capacity of Sumo than Safari. Sumo has a 9 Seater config too.

You can get all these details on the individual websites.

The list goes on and on. Hence, the products are designed more based on the market segements and target customers and hence the pricing/ features/ comforts/ performance/ styling/ seating capacity, etc, keeps varying.
Thanks again Maveric for justification.
By the way Sumo Torque is 250NM @1000-2000 rpm in fact.(1660-2000 rpm is the printing mistake both in owner's manual and in websiteof Sumo Gold(CR4),(Tata motors is also prone to such error! ) and rightly safari has torque of 320NM at 1700 to 2700 rpm .But again the final drive ratio is also different.It is 3.36 for Sumo Gold BSIV and 4.1 for Safari. So the point HIGHER CRUISING SPEEDS is alike in both the cases.

So it seems that the term MUV is very much relative and certain MUVs are close to SUV and some MUVs have even better advantage over SUV in off roading specific places. For example in Arunachal Pradesh for the hilly, zigzag and narrow roads taxi operators prefer Sumo because of it's small turning radius against other SUVs and MUVs with longer wheel base.
koushik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 18:24   #19
Senior - BHPian
 
lohithrao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kudla/Mangaluru
Posts: 3,125
Thanked: 163 Times
Default Re: why Tata Safari categorized as SUV and Sumo as MUV?

SUV's are to the luxurious side and in most cases with better engine. I think these are only the significant differentiators That i can think of.

Meanwhile you may have noticed that both Sumo and the Bolero suffer from bad finish and this is done for the same reason


Quote:
Originally Posted by koushik View Post
Both Tata Safari and Sumo have body over frame design , both are available in 2WD and 4WD version , both shares the same gear box and transfer case, both have almost same sitting arrangement, even both are available also with powerful 3 litre diesel engine.The only significant difference is in wheelbase. And sometimes shorter wheel base offers better off-road driving ability. Then why the Safari is identified as SUV and Sumo as MUV ? Thanks.
Regards,
Kaushik

Last edited by GTO : 9th February 2012 at 15:39. Reason: PM coming up
lohithrao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 18:35   #20
BHPian
 
Miel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 99
Thanked: 103 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by koushik View Post
Then why the Safari is identified as SUV and Sumo as MUV ?
Firstly, I think no one will ever hear the end of this debate.

Secondly, I would like to ask the thread starter whether his question is limited only to Tata Sumo and Tata Safari in particular. Alternatively, does it also include all MUV-SUV siblings, such as Bolero and Scorpio for instance?
That said, I 100% agree with all of the posts above. Especially the technical arguments provided by Maverick79, Kaushik, and libranof1987 are valid.

However, the question in turn spawned off these questions in my mind:
  1. Isnít todayís most advanced Sumo 4x4 variant a better vehicle, in terms of both on and off road performance than the first generation Safari? If so, does that mean it is time we started calling the Sumo an SUV. Alternatively does that mean you can no more call a 1st gen Safari, an SUV?
  2. It is easy to debate that the Safari is a more competent vehicle off road and on the highways, both comfort-wise and performance-wise than a Sumo. Hence it is easy to categorize the Sumo as an MUV and the Safari as an SUV.
    Although by the same milestone the 2011 Toyota Land Cruiser can make the 2012 Safari look like an MUV. Does that mean the Safari is actually just an MUV?

So at the end of the day, I think it is all about product placement and portfolio nomenclature.

The final question still remains. Are there any widely accepted guidelines to decide what qualifies as an SUV and what does not?
Maybe this existing thread can help with that. (Or can it?)
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ining-suv.html (Defining an SUV)

From my personal (and hence biased) point of view I agree with what GTO said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The term MUV (multi utility vehicle) is derived from MPV (multi purpose vehicle). Generally, I'd use the MUV / MPV tag for "van like" cars like the Innova, Xylo, Omni etc.

However, I do see the thread starter's point and consider the Sumo more of an SUV than an MUV. I guess it's about the body style, and the Sumo has more than a hint of an SUV to it.
Miel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 18:45   #21
BHPian
 
nair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 88
Thanked: 25 Times
Wink Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Guys check out http://tatasuv.com/
Apparently Safari, Sumo and even Venture are SUVs.

Lets not read much into such classification.


Note from Support: Please ensure the text does not contain any tags when posting content created using external word processor. Thanks

Last edited by .anshuman : 8th February 2012 at 22:19. Reason: Please ensure the text does not contian any tags when posting from some external word processor. Thanks
nair is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 19:30   #22
Senior - BHPian
 
scopriobharath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chennai
Posts: 3,565
Thanked: 1,175 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

When Safari & Sumo were launched in early 2000s, If a vehicle had just bare bones features, it was termed an MUV. If there are some luxury features and safety features, it was termed an SUV. With the entry of Innova, Tavera, Xylo et all, The definition of MUV segment was Re-Written with the creature comforts and safety options offered. Same with SUV segment with Scorpio, Terracan et All.

I would call sumo an UV rather an MUV as UV refers to the segment where a bare bones people carrier is needed, which could occassionally transfer some odd-sized cargo like a Rice-Sack or a Sack full of potatoes. It is also used to transport Late-Night workers pan industries.

Sumo does not have any creature comforts and safety features. It is just a basic people carrier.
scopriobharath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 19:52   #23
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Chennai
Posts: 1,123
Thanked: 364 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Just going by the language and its interpretation, a Multi utility vehicle can also mean/include a Sports utility vehicle among other functionalities, no?

The word "Multi" is the key here and IMO can include Sports also along with others (if any!)
bala80 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 19:57   #24
BHPian
 
koushik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 145
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miel View Post
Firstly, I think no one will ever hear the end of this debate.

Secondly, I would like to ask the thread starter whether his question is limited only to Tata Sumo and Tata Safari in particular. Alternatively, does it also include all MUV-SUV siblings, such as Bolero and Scorpio for instance?
That said, I 100% agree with all of the posts above. Especially the technical arguments provided by Maverick79, Kaushik, and libranof1987 are valid.

However, the question in turn spawned off these questions in my mind:
  1. Isnít todayís most advanced Sumo 4x4 variant a better vehicle, in terms of both on and off road performance than the first generation Safari? If so, does that mean it is time we started calling the Sumo an SUV. Alternatively does that mean you can no more call a 1st gen Safari, an SUV?
  2. It is easy to debate that the Safari is a more competent vehicle off road and on the highways, both comfort-wise and performance-wise than a Sumo. Hence it is easy to categorize the Sumo as an MUV and the Safari as an SUV.
    Although by the same milestone the 2011 Toyota Land Cruiser can make the 2012 Safari look like an MUV. Does that mean the Safari is actually just an MUV?
So at the end of the day, I think it is all about product placement and portfolio nomenclature.

The final question still remains. Are there any widely accepted guidelines to decide what qualifies as an SUV and what does not?
Maybe this existing thread can help with that. (Or can it?)
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ining-suv.html (Defining an SUV)

From my personal (and hence biased) point of view I agree with what GTO said.
Thanks Miel for effective reply.Yes my question is limited to Tata Sumo Gold and Tata Safari in particular.Despite it's new 3 L CR4 engine in Sumo Gold, the Safari(even with smaller engine) is better for high speed cruising ( ie above 120kmph speed).But it seems that Sumo is designed for heavy usage and covers many aspects that Safari is not meant for.So I would say that Sumo Gold is a blend of SUV and MUV . GTO would you please agree with that?
koushik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 20:02   #25
Senior - BHPian
 
bluevolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 2,963
Thanked: 2,211 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

If Sumo will be branded/positioned as SUV then who will buy Safari? I guess Sumo is lot cheaper than Safari. As simple as that.

Safari's 2.2L unit makes 140PS and 320NM whereas Sumo's 2.2L unit makes 120PS and 250NM. SUVs are more powerful, looks sporty whereas MUVs are not. Same is the case with Safari and Sumo.

PS - Is Mahindra Bolero an SUV? Mahindra clearly brands it as a tough SUV!

If Bolero = SUV then Why not Sumo = SUV as Sumo is more powerful than Bolero I guess.

Last edited by bluevolt : 8th February 2012 at 20:22.
bluevolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 20:08   #26
dot
Senior - BHPian
 
dot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ban Chang
Posts: 1,681
Thanked: 714 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miel View Post
Secondly, I would like to ask the thread starter whether his question is limited only to Tata Sumo and Tata Safari in particular. Alternatively, does it also include all MUV-SUV siblings, such as Bolero and Scorpio for instance?
For a long time I wanted to start a thread to ask the question on which would be a better product: Bolero, Scorpio or XUV500. Maybe this is a good enough point!

The root reason of the question being which is the real SUV. I understand that SUVs are more comfort creatures than off roaders, but looking at how a Bolero rules the rural (off) roads, I think it serves another aspect of an SUV, that is to tackle lousy roads without breaking a sweat. And it is comfortable too, minus some fancy electronics. Just because we tend to cram a lot of bodies in it, does it render the vehicle as a MUV?
dot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 20:46   #27
BHPian
 
koushik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 145
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nair View Post
Guys check out [COLOR=#810081]http://tatasuv.com/[/COLOR]
Apparently Safari, Sumo and even Venture are SUVs.

Lets not read much into such classification.
Nair you are absolutely right. Sumo is firstly SUV and then MUV with different comfort level. Each of the SUVs mentioned in the site has it's individual characteristic which is not covered by the rest.
koushik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 21:06   #28
Distinguished - BHPian
 
vb-san's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: S'pore/Thrissur
Posts: 4,698
Thanked: 3,890 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Well, IMHO both Sumo and Safari can be termed as SUVs. If really need to differentiate a SUV and a MUV (or MPV), the ideal example to consider would be the Fortuner and Innova.
vb-san is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2012, 22:20   #29
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,376
Thanked: 528 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
However, I do see the thread starter's point and consider the Sumo more of an SUV than an MUV. I guess it's about the body style, and the Sumo has more than a hint of an SUV to it.
I agree. Doesn't Sumo resemble Mercedes-Benz G-Class? I dot know the origin of the Sumo design but considering the relationship Tata had with Mercedes at different point, it could have been based on Mercedes SUV/Wagon.
Styling of Sumo is definitely SUVish then a typical people mover which have mono-volume design, aimed at maximizing the space inside.
Guna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2012, 10:05   #30
BHPian
 
dheepak10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 311
Thanked: 449 Times
Default Re: Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

SUV or MUV IMO is just a positioning of the products by the company so that there is no encroachment of segments between the two products.
In a lighter sense, MUVs have the 'licenses' to be present in the Taxi segment.
dheepak10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tata Sumo Gold - Refreshed Sumo! safari_lover The Indian Car Scene 466 5th June 2017 14:00
SCOOP! New Tata Sumo Picture. EDIT : Now launched as Sumo Grande MillionSwords The Indian Car Scene 217 26th October 2009 20:16
Tata Sumo Victa GX IDI Turbo or Sumo Grande GX drmessiah SUVs, MUVs & 4x4s 11 20th April 2009 18:16
Cheapest SUV-like MUV or maybe just an MUV! superman SUVs, MUVs & 4x4s 1 5th October 2006 10:01
Repainting & "Sumo to Sumo victa" conversion. Advice needed. nitrous Modifications & Accessories 0 21st November 2005 12:57


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 19:32.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks