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Old 11th February 2012, 11:54   #16
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
So if the European Swift & Indian Swift weighs almost the same, it means Maruti hasn't removed a big heavy block of steel from the structure of the car.
Unlike Tata Aria, these cars are monocoque structures. I agree with rohanjf that it's not possible to modify monoque structure without investing quite a sum of money (which will fail the purpose of doing cost cutting in first place).

I believe that the weight difference over European models is due to different engine, quality of interior materials and equipment levels. Hence I agree with vb-san that manufacturers really don't modify much to compromise on safety in India specific models of international cars.

CoolFire asks if it's too much to have our own safety tests. What's point of having them? We already have ARAI mileage tests which publish hilarious figures like i10 having mileage of 21+ kpl and certain bikes having mileage of 105+ kpl.

It will be no surprise if Indian safety tests would give Maruti 800 a rating of 6 out of 5 in safety.
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Old 11th February 2012, 11:59   #17
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Good discussion! Thanks SmartCat.

Technologically it may not be difficult. But it will be difficult to have a credible and manipulation-free system in place.
Quite likely. Ours is a country where you can actually rent a speed governor for RTO testing and remove immediately afterwards

Still, ARAI can make a start and look at refining the system down the line. The mileage figures by them do not look too rigged.

Anyway, looking merely at European test results and guessing how many changes are there in the Indian model, even variants may not take us much further.
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Old 11th February 2012, 12:18   #18
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post

Out of the models listed below, I personally feel the Figo will be relatively safer. Reason, even though there is no ABS/Airbags, the car gives a solid feel, and even the doors feel pretty heavy, and does not look compromised on the structural integrity. Even the Ikon (another made for India car) we had, been devoid of any safety features, but were pretty good in this aspect. And when I drove back to back the made for India Figo and the international Ritz/Splash, the Figo felt safer.
dont really think safety can be about just "feeling". there has to be a scientific basis. A car cannot be called safer just because it feels so! Then the Boleros and the Ambys could be termed quite safe.

I really dont buy your argument here. Unless Ford publish some sort of data that they must be having (as they must have had done crash tests and all) we cant really judge the Figo.
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Old 11th February 2012, 13:24   #19
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

Apparently, there are similar tests done in India, which is discussed in this thread here (What is Homologation?), but it seems safety is not given the importance it requires in those tests.
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Old 11th February 2012, 14:31   #20
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
So just because Aria 4x2 is being sold only in India, Tata has removed some 200 kgs of metal from the car and hence made it less safer than Aria 4x4.
4X4 mechanicals would have contributed substantially to this 200 kgs. Off course it is possible that 4X2 does have some safety features like ABS or Airbags (I am not familiar with Aria specifications). Other then that I don't think they can really take away metal from a lower end variant. Structural frame and body shell would be the same.
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Old 11th February 2012, 14:41   #21
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
dont really think safety can be about just "feeling". there has to be a scientific basis. A car cannot be called safer just because it feels so! Then the Boleros and the Ambys could be termed quite safe.

I really dont buy your argument here. Unless Ford publish some sort of data that they must be having (as they must have had done crash tests and all) we cant really judge the Figo.
Well, we are not really talking about safe cars here – are we? The OP is specifically on how compromised is the made for India cars in comparison with the international models in the same segment.

Most of the cars in these segment does not have any NCAP rating (at least the base variants) to support. The websites surely will have a page dedicated about safety, but generally covers the top variant. So the buyer who doesn’t have the luxury to go for the safer variants will have to go by what is written about the car, reviews/feedbacks, and his/her own judgment (or what s/ he feel about the car).

Agreed safety is not just about feeling. But for many (me included) that feeling of robustness is indeed a key parameter to make a purchase decision. That’s why you keep hearing in reviews some common comments like “door closed with a reassuring thud”, “robust construction”, “tank-like build” etc.

Last edited by vb-san : 11th February 2012 at 14:42. Reason: Realigned
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Old 11th February 2012, 15:47   #22
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

Did some Google search.

Keyword "Honda Brio Crash Test" took me straight to Official Team-BHP review. Quoting from the review -

Quote:
Honda insists that the rear frame is sufficiently stiffened from the safety point of view, and adds that the Brio has cleared Japanese crash tests (which are supposed to be more stringent than European standards)
Keyword "Toyota Etios Crash Test" took me to this YouTube video (presented by Toyota at Etios Liva launch party)



The video shows a computer model of Etios Liva crashing into a wall with the voice-over saying Liva matches "global standards of safety".
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Old 11th February 2012, 16:44   #23
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

Can interested members of this community do something to improve the safety standards in our country. Its good that we have begun a discussion. But would look forward to the guys who can come out with a concrete plan to do something. I am keen to but have no idea how and where to start or go about this. Hope the experienced guys out there who knows how to take it forward can take a lead. Im sure there will be immense support from this forum. I will be the first.
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Old 11th February 2012, 19:01   #24
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

I don't think there is any doubt that the cars sold in India will generally not match the safety of their European / North American / Japanese counterparts in safety.

Why?

Because the typical Indian customer cares two hoots about safety, that's why. For the previous gen Swift, less than 1 out of 10 customers opted for ABS on the V variant, even though it only cost ~20k more. Add to that, our legislation doesn't exactly emphasize on safer automobiles either (unlike the US NHSTA).

That said, even if airbags are removed for the Indian version of a car (vis a vis its European model), you can be rest assured that the basic monocoque is safe enough.....it has to be safe, else it wouldn't have gotten a 5 star in the NCAP (re : Hyundai i20). Similarly, the Swift might lose some safety equipment, but I consider it to be far safer just because of its int'l safety rankings.

It's safe to say that a global model would have had a far higher investment in the safety parameter, than an India / Asia only design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolFire View Post
Can't we have our own safety tests? Is it too costly or technologically difficult?
Check this thread out (ARAI Bashers - Some clarifications from an ex-ARAI engineer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arin_12 View Post
I always suggest my friends to buy a car with min Feature like ABS/Air Bags.
Please understand that airbags & ABS alone don't make a safe car...safety has got to be designed into the car right from the inception stage. For instance, you cannot add airbags to an outdated Mahindra Bolero or an HM Ambassador and expect it to overnight become safe.

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Originally Posted by 2cents View Post
I've read elsewhere in the forum, from some one who claimed to be well informed, about i20 having made some skimming of even the structure to reduce cost, yet bragging about its 5* NCAP rating.
I doubt. The difference in kerb weight of the 1.4 CRDi is 4 kilos; we could attribute that to some equipment (and IIRC, one airbag less) rather than skimming. Remember, in today's times of efficient standardised manufacturing, it would cost more to separate the i20s in that way.

Also, Hyundai had originally not planned to sell the i20 here at all. By their own projections, it would probably do about a 1,000 units a month, and 90% of the production was intended for Europe.

Basically, if the Indian factory also supplies to Europe (or anywhere else), I think you are "safe". Take the Nissan Micra as an example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Structural frame and body shell would be the same.
Nope. Structural changes have indeed been made. Refer to our review for more details:

Quote:
Euro NCAP safety rating not applicable to the 4x2 (structural changes made)
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Old 11th February 2012, 19:22   #25
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Because the typical Indian customer cares two hoots about safety...
To a large extent, this may be true. But I believe that notions of "safety" differ among people. For many, a car per se has some elements of safety. For example, my maid and her husband are planning to buy a second hand car (Maruti 800 or an Alto), simply because they believe that a basic car -- even if it has no airbags, no ABS, etc -- is far more safer than their two-wheeler. They would not have even bothered about seat belts in a car, had our Goa government not made it compulsory for the driver to use them on highways!

In fact, the rising two-wheeler mishaps here in Goa has led many people to opt for a four-wheeler (no matter how basic it may be) mainly because of the 'safety' aspect.

So, many people tend to feel safer (in comparison to a two-wheeler) inside a four-wheeled cabin, even though the cars may not have all the safety features. The very fact that many people here in Goa have upgraded from a two-wheeler into a four-wheeler is largely (though not only) due to "safety" reasons.

Last edited by misquitas : 11th February 2012 at 19:30.
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Old 11th February 2012, 19:33   #26
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My two cents
Most of the time we can not compare the EURO NCAP ratings on the cars available in India, because the NCAP ratings are based on frontal, side an pedestrian impacts during a collision. Hardly 1% of cars in the price bracket 5-10 L has side air bags, which contributes to NCAP ratings. For example the i20 claims 5 star NCAP rating, but it is only applicable for
the top of the range with an optional pack (6 airbags). But Hyundai uses the ratings for their marketing the whole range.

On a different note the government should brings some legislation to make the ABS and airbags are mandatory for all the vehicles. Until then ABS, Airbags will be a luxury in India
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Old 11th February 2012, 19:59   #27
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

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On a different note the government should brings some legislation to make the ABS and airbags are mandatory for all the vehicles. Until then ABS, Airbags will be a luxury in India
Totally agree. If the government was compelled to bring about BSIII, BSIV, and other such regulations, it can easily mandate the inclusion of ABS and airbags on all cars. If it is really sincerely in the safety of its motoring citizens, it can easily offer some sops to automobile manufacturers to compulsorily include ABS, airbags on all of their cars.

I feel that ABS, airbags should be compulsory on all variants of a car. Other fitments (music system, central locking, power windows, reverse sensor, etc.) can be the distinguishing factor between variants of a model.
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Old 11th February 2012, 20:02   #28
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

Price is one of the main reasons definitely. The first thing most people want to buy nowadays when they have a little money is a car. Gone are the days where the first buy would be a house or something. Manufacturers are therefore stripping down on the safety features to have the maximum models/options available to the mass.

The only car sold in India that I have come across which has ABS and Airbags from the Base version is the Jazz. Its actually fully loaded from the base version itself.
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Old 11th February 2012, 22:18   #29
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The government has barely mandated the wearing of seat belts in India! It is likely to take them another ten years to bring about mandatory ABS, Air bags and all the rest of the safety kit. Life is considered cheap in this country as long as it is not the life of a rich man or political sort. We attach greater value to our possessions than human or any other life itself. The tragedy of a nation over powered by greed and corruption at every turn!
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Old 12th February 2012, 15:06   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan
The government has barely mandated the wearing of seat belts in India! It is likely to take them another ten years to bring about mandatory ABS, Air bags and all the rest of the safety kit. Life is considered cheap in this country as long as it is not the life of a rich man or political sort. We attach greater value to our possessions than human or any other life itself. The tragedy of a nation over powered by greed and corruption at every turn!
Shankar,
There is a difference in enforcing the law "wear seat belt while driving" and mandating the manufacture to provide seat beats for all the passengers. I think the first step is to mandate the features in vehicles, so that it gives the minority, who obey the law, and want a safe drive can make use of these features with out paying more money to get the top end of the range.
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