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Old 26th April 2013, 19:14   #61
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

We can only expect safer cars when people demand it. No point in blaming manufacturers or government for it. If the people themselves are not interested in their safety, why expect others to be. In a country where people dont like to wear helmets and seat belts, what use is it blaming manufacturers for lack of abs,airbags.
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Old 26th April 2013, 21:29   #62
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

The change has to come from the customer's end, not the manufacturer or government.

How many of us really care for safety? Picture this:

1. Mid-variant models (bling feature-rich, but missing safety equipment) are the best-sellers in all segments where safety features are optional. Give an Indian choice between safety and bling accessories and 99/100 will go for bling.

2. How many people wear seat-belts? I've had friends/acquaintances laugh at me (and some got out of my car saying I'm no fun when they realized I was serious), just because I said I won't drive them if they refuse to buckle up. Same for two-wheelers. Most of them wear flimsy helmets as a favor to cops. Who'll tell them a wrongly-worn helmet could be worse than wearing none at all?

3. I see lots of Baby-on-Board stickers on cars, but I'm yet to see an Infant seat in use. A lot of my acquaintances have bought/upgraded cars after having a kid, saying the old car didn't feel safe enough. When asked "What about the kid's safety? Where's the infant seat?", they are speechless. Vehicles worth a crore+ are driven with infants on the passenger's lap. What manufacturer-provided safety feature is supposed to help such idiots?

I could go on & on, but it suffices to say we have no right to demand others (manufacturer, government, rule-enforcement agencies blah blah) to care for our safety when don't care two hoots for it ourselves.

When are we going to stop shirking responsibility and blaming others for our own faults? If anyone is at fault, it's us. When we stop buying ill-equipped cars, manufacturers will stop making them. Plain and simple.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 26th April 2013 at 21:30.
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Old 26th April 2013, 21:56   #63
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

Here is a very nice video on how the crash tests are held and how they keep improving day by day to make sure the next car going to be manufactured and crash-tested is safer than the older one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuYS6...ture=endscreen
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Old 27th April 2013, 02:56   #64
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Ford Figo
Toyota Etios
Toyota Liva
Hyundai Eon
Honda Brio

The common denominator among the 5 models mentioned above is that - all are cars specifically designed by their manufacturers for the Indian market. None of the above cars are sold in Europe or USA.

Digressing a bit - quoting from Tata Aria 4x2 Official Team-BHP review -



So just because Aria 4x2 is being sold only in India, Tata has removed some 200 kgs of metal from the car and hence made it less safer than Aria 4x4.

Is it possible that Ford, Toyota, Hyundai & Honda have done the same for the models mentioned above? Their past record is not impressive - all the above manufacturers were/are guilty of selling cars without airbags/ABS just to keep costs low.

So when choosing between Swift & Brio or between Liva & i20 or between Figo & Punto or between Eon & A-star, should those who value safety above everything else consider this factor and generally avoid made-for-India cars?
In reality none of the B or C segment cars will have the same NCAP ratings as their European or US siblings, One exception might be i20 with 6 Air Bags.
Even the reduced number of Airbags can change the NCAP ratings, for example the i20 shows it got 5 star Euro NCAP rating, but that is TRUE only for the top end with 6 Air Bags. The moment the side, curtain and Knee Airbags are removed, the impact on the occupants will increase, which results in reduced NCAP rating.

In case of AirBag, it is just one example, how many other changes the manufactures might have carried out to cut the cost!!!
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Old 27th April 2013, 07:19   #65
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Default Re: Etios Liva Crash Test Result

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
I was looking for crash test data on India/Asia/Developing market specific vehicles like Etios and Brio and have found the crash test result for Etios Liva. Happy to see that Liva did well.


If anybody have any crash test rating of Brio/Amaze from independent facility please post it here.
I'm going to have to play the Devil's advocate here. I did study this test result and found that the test weight was 1162kgs. Now, when I do the math, compared to the Indian Etios Liva hatch back, the LatinNCAP vehicle seems to be about 80-86kgs heavier. Given my experience in crash testing, I have seen an additional mass of 25kgs invested in safety critical reinforcements show drastic results in NCAP ratings, of course causing a sizeable dent in the FE numbers.

If you recollect, just adding 18kgs to the BIW to strengthen the structure of Tata Nano was enough to get the vehicle to meet the European ECE R94 regulation. Again, Nano met the regulatory requirements; Consumer metrics like NCAP ratings are a lot more stringent than the regulations of that region.

So, until the Etios Liva sold in India is tested, I would reserve my opinion and comparison.

To prove my point, it would interesting to note that the Indian manufactured RHD Hyundai i10, sold in Malaysia with 2012 trim detail and tested with 2 frontal airbags managed to score only a 2-star ASEAN NCAP safety rating when compared it to its European LHD sibling which scored a 4-star in the older and less stringent 2008 EuroNCAP ratings and had additional side airbags. The i10 tested for ASEAN NCAP in 2012 is a mere 20kgs lighter than its European cousin which was tested for EuroNCAP in 2008.

As I had previously mentioned in another thread, its very easy to 'decontent' vehicles by removing 'non-essential' safety critical reinforcements in the structure for markets where crash regulations are non-existant, and where the customer is big on Fuel economy.

Last edited by nikhil3456 : 27th April 2013 at 07:23. Reason: grammatical errors
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Old 27th April 2013, 07:57   #66
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Default Re: Etios Liva Crash Test Result

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Originally Posted by nikhil3456 View Post
I'm going to have to play the Devil's advocate here. I did study this test result and found that the test weight was 1162kgs. Now, when I do the math, compared to the Indian Etios Liva hatch back, the LatinNCAP vehicle seems to be about 80-86kgs heavier. Given my experience in crash testing, I have seen an additional mass of 25kgs invested in safety critical reinforcements show drastic results in NCAP ratings, of course causing a sizeable dent in the FE numbers.
What i have understood is that the test weight of the vehicle will be higher than the Kerb Weight when crash test dummies, test instrumentation and cameras are added.

Again in the case of i10 tested in Malaysia and Europe, the weight difference could be due to the presence of additional airbags, standard trim and maybe test instrumentation too. Possible?

Anyway its interesting to see the structural strength of the cabin and how it holds its shape in the videos.

Are you working for any crash test facility?
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Old 27th April 2013, 08:07   #67
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Default Re: Etios Liva Crash Test Result

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
What i have understood is that the test weight of the vehicle will be higher than the Kerb Weight when crash test dummies, test instrumentation and cameras are added.

Again in the case of i10 tested in Malaysia and Europe, the weight difference could be due to the presence of additional airbags, standard trim and maybe test instrumentation too. Possible?

Anyway its interesting to see the structural strength of the cabin and how it holds its shape in the videos.

Are you working for any crash test facility?
Yes, you are right in saying that the test weight is higher. I have considered the mass of the crash test dummies, test instrumentation etc in my calculations. I used my ready reckoner to calculate the final mass as per requirements of the respective NCAP tests. In short, I made sure I was comparing apples to apples.

As far as the i10 weight difference is concerned, the only place where I see a visible and known difference is in the addition of side airbags and ABS/ESP modules. Knowing the approximate mass of these parts, I would still say there is a difference. I'm not even considering a likely factor that a vehicle's mass tends to go down over the years from its original launch due to mass optimization.

It is interesting to see how the structure holds, but if the structure is reinforced and massed up differently, you would see a very different behavior.

I am a crash test performance and simulations engineer with General Motors and yes I have been responsible for judging the performance of quite a few cars at the Milford Proving Grounds in Michigan. Though I work for GM, I strive to be as unbiased in my opinion as possible and hence at times refrain from subjective debates!

Last edited by nikhil3456 : 27th April 2013 at 08:15. Reason: grammatical errors and disclaimer and additional info
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Old 27th April 2013, 08:18   #68
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

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Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
Here is a very nice video on how the crash tests are held and how they keep improving day by day to make sure the next car going to be manufactured and crash-tested is safer than the older one:
Thank you for this! Its a comprehensive coverage of what goes on a crash test engineer's life on a day to day basis.

Brings back fond memories of waiting with bated breath to see the vehicle go boom against the barrier and then rush to it to get a feel of the performance

Like David Zuby says, "We all get a kick out of that"!
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Old 27th April 2013, 09:10   #69
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Default Re: Etios Liva Crash Test Result

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Originally Posted by nikhil3456 View Post
Yes, I have considered the mass of the crash test dummies, test instrumentation etc in my calculations. I used my ready reckoner to calculate the final mass as per requirements of the respective NCAP tests.

As far as the i10 weight difference is concerned, the only place where I see a visible and known difference is in the addition of side airbags and ABS/ESP modules. Knowing the approximate mass of these parts, I would still say there is a difference. I'm not even considering a likely factor that a vehicle's mass tends to go down over the years from its original launch due to mass optimization.

I am a crash test performance and simulations engineer with General Motors and yes I have been responsible to judge the performance of quite a few cars at the Milford Proving Grounds in Michigan. Though I work for GM, I strive to be as unbiased in my opinion as possible and hence at times refrain from subjective debates!
Cool Do you happen to have any industry information regarding Brio/Amaze crash test? I couldn't find any on the net and im interested in the Amaze Diesel.

Coming to Liva crash test, the test weight is 1162kg as you have mentioned. What is the minimum crash test weight requirement? Was the car weighed up to meet this requirement?

Again if that isn't the case, Brazil market has only two Liva models, 1.3 petrol and 1.5 petrol. So it must be the Liva 1.5 with two airbags and ABS+EBD that they tested there?

Here the top of the range Liva petrol 1.2 with optional twin air bags and ABS+EBD. The KW of the Liva 1.2 V is given as 930kg and the airbags and ABS+EBD is optional even in this variant, so i'm not sure if the KW includes optional "factory" accessories.

Doing the calc with info we have we know that 1162-930=232kg, test vehicle weighed 232 kilos more. Subtracting the dummies and instrumentation weight of approx 175kg-200kg, the un-accounted weight difference between the tested vehicle weight and our local market Liva could be from market specific features like slightly bigger engine and rear wash&wipe which isn't available in India.

PS: How much does a pair of dummies and test instrumentation including cameras weigh in total? I have read that a steel plate is also added under the floor panel. Why is that added?

Last edited by Sankar : 27th April 2013 at 09:13.
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Old 27th April 2013, 09:51   #70
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In my view, Safety (personal and for others) is a concept that is mostly alien to our countrymen. Anything that requires understanding basic cause and effect relationships is not very well understood by us Indians culturally - I guess what I am trying to say is that we deal with things in a far more abstract way. So even things like personal safety is seen by most people in a context that has considerations for philosophical musings on life and death. How many times have we heard from people that life and death is governed by destiny. In a way such thought has weight because it recognises the role of very small probability events in our life.

But really digressions aside, no manufacturer will sell cars with safety features because there is no demand cars with safety features since consumers fail to see the link between use and implementation of these features (like seat belts ) and higher survival rates in case of an accident. And as I pointed out, accident rates will continue to be high because we seem to be incapable of seeing the very direct link between rational and rule based road behaviour and lesser accidents.
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Old 27th April 2013, 11:29   #71
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

We don't need our own safety standard. Why reinvent the wheel and introduce this only to create mnore jobs for the Govt and encourage more corruption?

We can just use the Euro NCAP - Why Not? Would be create tougher standards ourselves?

Yes cars that are made for India will quite likely see some compromise vs the global safety standards of developed nations. But the extent will vary from vendor to vendor.

Tata tried to bring what it felt was a global standard vehicle with the Aria 4X4 AWD initially and then was deemed to be overpriced - and it was indeed so in some ways. They corrected this by dropping 200kgs of metal and the AWD components to create cheaper varients. and the NCAP safety levels. It was too late and the battle was already lost. If Toyota tried to make the liva and Etios match it's offers in Europe I guess we would have the models priced just below the Polo and Vento and they would probably not sell well out here. In which case we are just looking at them bringing in their current global models to India and being outpriced by India focused models from the competition.

Yes if a model available in Europe is priced the same as a model developed specifically for India and if both are vehicles from the same segment then it is best to choose the model that is also available in Europe. But is one is going across segments or is upgrading from a lower segment vehicle then it may not matter as much. (A poorly designed car will always be safer than a well designed 2 or 3 wheeler) and in general a bigger car will be safer than a smaller one from a lower segment - yes there are exceptions to this.

Last edited by ACM : 27th April 2013 at 11:33.
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Old 27th April 2013, 11:44   #72
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

I had recommended the SX4 ZXI-AT to my friend, both from safety & convenience part of view. He had a direct collision with a tractor trailer @ 80kmph & escaped unscathed. Car is repaired & now running perfectly.

So seems that the SX4 is reasonably safe.

My query is as follows:-

We normally drive, at max 80-95 kmph, with our windows rolled down. In such cases do side airbags help in case of a side crash?

Pla to upgrade our Ford Fusion to an AT gearbox suv. This is the question that is now vexing me as getting side airbags increases the cost & reduces options. Any views or experiences?
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Old 27th April 2013, 12:34   #73
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
(A poorly designed car will always be safer than a well designed 2 or 3 wheeler) and in general a bigger car will be safer than a smaller one from a lower segment - yes there are exceptions to this.
I would like to express my difference with you in this opinion. What matters is the how rigid the monocoque structure is and how well the crumple zones are designed. Now given the same collision scenarios, a badly designed bigger car will fail and a well designed small car will do better.

To give you example, small overlap crash tests are getting popular these days. Germans have always been known for building rigid and safer cars and they have been commuted to improve their cars in the safety regards. Audi A4 and Mercedes C class (current generation) - The names suddenly come in mind as well built safer sedans but wait, it failed in the small overlap crash test along with a Mercedes models.

Here are their ratings and detailed descriptions:
Audi A4 : http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.a...7&seriesid=558
Merc C Class : http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.a...0&seriesid=464

And here are small overlap crash test video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob7BhzpPvNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG9h4XMJv6Y


Now compare a smaller car from lower segment - Honda Civic. This care fared well in the small overlap crash test.

Details : http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.a...4&seriesid=300

Video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlo77euKkCI

Wait, iyts not enough. There is a famous small car called Smart, very little car. Who can belive that such a small car can tolerate any kind of impact. But that car does wonders in crash tests.

Watch it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKSPxQjPOm0


They aren't satisfied, hence another test at much higher speed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGtWc4m8Z2E


But look the fate of a bigger Ford car in a high speed crash test, which fared well in in standard crash tests:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dI5ewOmHPQ

So this is all about how well the cars are constructed.

One thing is sure, Liva twins and Brio have proved that those aren't the cars to take out of the city limits. I don't have proper test data to back my statement but its based on my personal observations after seeing many accidental cars and studying the damaged components of them in the past.

I even doubt on the Figo since its based on a very old platform and I have seen the Figos where the relatively low intensity impacts intruded in the cabin.

i20 is so-so, but little higher intensity of the impact and it also gives up. i20 is one example where having all the safety equipments matters. It will struggle receiving the ratings near to what it receives with 6 airbags and other safety features.

But cars Like Polo, Punto, Fabia etc are way much safer and can tolerate impacts at much higher intensity compared to the untested India bound cars. Doesn't matter if they have all the safety equipments or not compared to their European siblings.

So when we are paying attention on crash test ratings, we should watch as much as videos and photos possible of the crash tests and should observe the impact on A pillars and in the cabin. Because the crash tests are held at very low speed compared to speed of real time crashes where speed of both the colliding vehicles count (in most of cases, its frontal impact between two or more vehicles).
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Old 29th April 2013, 14:30   #74
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
The change has to come from the customer's end,

2. How many people wear seat-belts? I've had friends/acquaintances laugh at me (and some got out of my car saying I'm no fun when they realized I was serious), just because I said I won't drive them if they refuse to buckle up. Same for two-wheelers. Most of them wear flimsy helmets as a favor to cops. Who'll tell them a wrongly-worn helmet could be worse than wearing none at all?

3. I see lots of Baby-on-Board stickers on cars, but I'm yet to see an Infant seat in use. A lot of my acquaintances have bought/upgraded cars after having a kid, saying the old car didn't feel safe enough. When asked "What about the kid's safety? Where's the infant seat?", they are speechless. Vehicles worth a crore+ are driven with infants on the passenger's lap. What manufacturer-provided safety feature is supposed to help such idiots?

When we stop buying ill-equipped cars, manufacturers will stop making them. Plain and simple.
Valid points: To add:

a) I used to wear seatbelts many years prior to it becoming a law in India.
b) Bought a vehicle with Airbags in 1998.
c) Used to wear a helmet even in a city like Surat during my college days well before it became the rule and was laughed at by all. I infact had my first accident on a two wheeler (and did get scratched on the helmet) during my first drive out with the new helmet.
d) I have always insisted on my kid sitting in the middle row and we are right now using his third Car Seat. First one was for childern below 1 year and had to be used in reverse direction with child in lying down position. The Second one was for childern upto 15 kgs wt to be used in forward seating position. And the current Third current one is a booster seat for childern above 15 kgs wt.

Things will improve with more and more exposure to the western world through shops like mom and me, or Mothercare, Lifestyle and many others who make such things available. It is finally upto us to bother about our own health rather than the Government.

BUT yes the govt bringing in regulations like seatbelts, and helmets has already saved many lives. It will further help if Front Airbags, and no children in front are the next two regulations that they bring in. The ban on Sun Films does help indirectly to some extent even with visibility through the vehicle in front. Lastly the Govt could make safer roads with proper barriers and also penalize jaywalkers with as stiff a fine as car drivers.
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Old 29th April 2013, 22:53   #75
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Default Re: Crash Safety - Are Figo, Eon, Etios, Liva & Brio Safe Enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Valid points: To add:

a) I used to wear seatbelts many years prior to it becoming a law in India.
b) Bought a vehicle with Airbags in 1998.
c) Used to wear a helmet even in a city like Surat during my college days well before it became the rule and was laughed at by all. I infact had my first accident on a two wheeler (and did get scratched on the helmet) during my first drive out with the new helmet.
d) I have always insisted on my kid sitting in the middle row and we are right now using his third Car Seat. First one was for childern below 1 year and had to be used in reverse direction with child in lying down position. The Second one was for childern upto 15 kgs wt to be used in forward seating position. And the current Third current one is a booster seat for childern above 15 kgs wt.

Things will improve with more and more exposure to the western world through shops like mom and me, or Mothercare, Lifestyle and many others who make such things available. It is finally upto us to bother about our own health rather than the Government.

BUT yes the govt bringing in regulations like seatbelts, and helmets has already saved many lives. It will further help if Front Airbags, and no children in front are the next two regulations that they bring in. The ban on Sun Films does help indirectly to some extent even with visibility through the vehicle in front. Lastly the Govt could make safer roads with proper barriers and also penalize jaywalkers with as stiff a fine as car drivers.
We need more people like you

My first lesson in driving school was 'seat-belts first'. Now I buckle up instinctively whenever I get into a car, irrespective of the seat I occupy.

Dad bought me a helmet on the way to buying my bike, back in college. 'No helmets, no riding' was firmly enforced. Another habit that has become instinct now.

Infrastructure upgrades would be welcome whenever they happen, but with the kind of dangerous roads & traffic infrastructure we have in place right now, safety should be first on our priority list.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 29th April 2013 at 22:57.
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