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Old 29th February 2012, 00:52   #16
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

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Originally Posted by recshenoy View Post
3. to start with, price a car little cheaper till you see decent sales happening across dealership. Since FIAT is auto major in the world I am sure they can absorb the initial costs and possible low revenues/profits by making cars cheaper.
Exactly which model and variant from Fiat (there are only two discounting the 500!) do you find overpriced currently? And even historically which model was overpriced, ever, except maybe the Palio 1.9D ELX SP?

Personally, one may have many genuine complaints with Fiat, but exorbitant sticker pricing of their vehicles is definitely not one of them, unless one wishes Fiat to give them fat discounts in lieu of other shortcomings!

One may also argue that Tata sells Manza cheaper than the Linea with the same powertrain and much more real estate in the showroom, but compared to its rivals like the new Fiesta, I find the Linea to be a much more VFM proposition especially in the 2012 edition.
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Old 29th February 2012, 01:06   #17
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

Smartcat I think even god himself might not be able to give a good answer to this one!I think the current success of FIAT seems not bad considering their past.A lot of what if speculations can be made, but would be difficult to point out important ones
- What if they had refused to licensce MJDs to suzuki and kept it between TATA and themselves?The swift diesel played a huge role in popularising concept of refined,powerful,economic diesel hatches.On the other hand if MJD was launched only in a FIAT first,may be it would have garnered more sales in absence of a competitor, but again maybe FIAT makes more out of licensing engines.
- What if FIAT had a JV with suzuki in exchange for the engines? would it mean better after sales? maybe suzuki would have been worried at prospect of Swift and punto cannibalising each other.
- FIAT was not much bothered to indianise the car by using relatively cheap approaches like improving ergonomics,lessen the protusion of dash into cabin space,scooped out seat backs,wider footwells.This would have atleast made space inside be comparable to jazz/fabia
- The pricing was spot on for punto but linea with same quality plastics and cramped space,poor gear box did not bode well for a sedan.
- The coarse plastics and dud of a gearbox were the achilles heel of both cars in my opinion.Fuel efficiency has never been a problem with diesels but suzukis deliver easily 10% more with carefree driving and higher speeds.
- FIAT should have made sure of parts availability this time.I took the word of dealer before purchase that most parts are in stock and only items like driveshaft have to be ordered and they too will be available at a weeks time.The story turned out opposite with even trivial parts not in supply!
-Reliability of current FIATS are definitely good especially on the engine front but minor niggles of ill fitting parts and all brought a negativity in the begining.Currenty one has to be bothered about super fast wearing out brake pads and strut mount pads.breaks wearing out at 15-20 k are just unacceptable.
- It would have been cheap to reskin the palio,make it unrecogniseable, a new name,give it the stong TATA traits of interior space and maket it alongwith TATA,you would have a decent budget car capable of bringing volumes.
One thing i appreciate about FIAT is their passion to make driver oriented cars and not skimping on safety front.(I vouch that by the brakes on my punto)
As others pointed out with FIAT concentrating on cracking into US and maintaining their good run in brazil,the HQ will be least interested in india if not for the JV.

Last edited by aditya116 : 29th February 2012 at 01:10.
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Old 29th February 2012, 01:20   #18
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

Post deleted by the Team-BHP Support : Please do NOT post one-liners that add little or no informational value to the thread. We need your co-operation to maintain the overall quality of this forum.

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Last edited by GTO : 29th February 2012 at 14:13.
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Old 29th February 2012, 01:29   #19
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

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Originally Posted by architect View Post
Personally, one may have many genuine complaints with Fiat, but exorbitant sticker pricing of their vehicles is definitely not one of them, unless one wishes Fiat to give them fat discounts in lieu of other shortcomings!
Fiat cars are not at all over priced if you take a neutral stand point, infact they are very good value for money compared to competitors be it is i20,Polo or Fabia. But Fiat is not in ideal situation now. If they want to attract customers and make it popular among masses (especially Indian consumers where VFM is THE THING), they simply have to sell at low price to start with and do some silent price hikes like Ford did


Quote:
One may also argue that Tata sells Manza cheaper than the Linea with the same powertrain and much more real estate in the showroom, but compared to its rivals like the new Fiesta, I find the Linea to be a much more VFM proposition especially in the 2012 edition.
Problem is due to JV no other reason. Comparison is happening due to the JV with TATA. Look at dzire, that too is priced like Manza. And I am sure if VW-Suzuki had JV and Vento was in MSIL showroom, Vento customers would have compared it with Dzire

No one compares Vento/Fiesta/Skoda Rapid to Manza. But in case of FIAT Linea despite having good options like T-jet, comparison happens with Manza just because they are on same floor.

Last edited by recshenoy : 29th February 2012 at 01:31.
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Old 29th February 2012, 01:42   #20
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

Every once in a while, this topic seems to crop up on Team BHP. I guess its a telling reminder of the sheer passion that Brand FIAT evokes amongst us motorists.

I for one, really love Fiat cars, and during my test drives in 2010, I simply fell flat for the Punto. Great car, fantastic handling, lovely ergonomics, yet, I walked away from the Italian beauty and opted for the Swift. I guess the head won over the heart, cos I was simply too scared by the Fiat reputation for aftersales and support.

Do I regret it? Yes, at times, when I see the tinny Maruti build, but I feel relieved when I hear about the horror stories that crop up with Fiat owners on Team BHP.

All Fiat really needs to do is improve the sales and service. Their cars dont even need marketing. Infact I hated the Sachin edition cars. Never understood that. Also, never understood the rationale for launching the 500 in India. Did they really expect volumes with that car? Nah, it was a flagship concept car. What blah...

Loved the Red Palio, and the UNO as well. Great cars, bad management, marketing, sales and service ruined this iconic brand in India.
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Old 29th February 2012, 01:49   #21
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

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No one compares Vento/Fiesta/Skoda Rapid to Manza. But in case of FIAT Linea despite having good options like T-jet, comparison happens with Manza just because they are on same floor
Recshenoy, anyone could not have put it better.but regarding prices,now they are just about well priced if one goes by 2012 range rejig.Introductory price on road for punto emotion was 6.28lacs compared to swift VDi with ABS coming in at 5.9 lacs.The superior build,ride,stereo and onboard trip,speed sensor etc easily justified the premium over swift back in 2009.But now the justification is not so strong with similarly specced emotion pack being expensive by 8000 over new swift ZDI.(in kerala)

Last edited by aditya116 : 29th February 2012 at 01:50.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:20   #22
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

Highly Speculative and useless thread. Please close or better delete!
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:38   #23
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Ask anybody why Fiat has done so poorly in the past and continues to be invisible in India, and you'll probably hear one or all of the following reasons - .....

....
Well, whats the point of this thread you have started mate!?

I am curious to know, where did you get the expiry dates for Linea & Punto! Do you have any data to support or its just your wild imagination!?

There are quite a lot of threads to discuss on Fiat's progress in India. To list a few...

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...iat-sales.html (Tata power fails to push Fiat sales) (This should be an interesting thread for you)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...bal-plans.html (Fiat's Global Plans) (Talks about their Global plans)

Last edited by anachronix : 29th February 2012 at 08:40.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:02   #24
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

I totally disagree with the doomsday predictions made by the author of this thread.
Quote:
- Wrong choice of local partners
But for Tata Motors, FIAT would not have entered into India in their third avatar.
Quote:
- Poor reliability
I am a satisfied owner of my Linea since 2.5 years and 38 k km. My Linea has travelled from Kanniyakumari to Khardung La in 16 states/UT. I never faced any reliability issues so far.
Quote:
- Poor after sales service
Again, disinformation. I had owned MS Omni/Versa for more than 17 years. IMO, FIAT after sales service is better than that of MASS. Concorde Motors, Dairy Circle, Bangalore, proactively changed certain parts on their own during the first service without any queries from my side! My Linea was serviced at Automobile Kapoor's India Pvt. Ltd., Amritsar, on my way to Leh, where my Linea was water-washed, all fluids topped-up, engine guard plate was flattened and refitted, etc. Myself and my wife were treated with tea twice. But, I was not charged at all! I had never had such royal treatment at MASS.
Quote:
- Poor mileage
OMG. You are complaining against the national engine of India, 1.3 MJD? Even the bitterest critic of FIAT India will not agree with you on this. I am fully satisfied with the FE my 1.4 FIRE engine of my Linea.
Quote:
- Not so powerful heavy cars
FIAT India launched Linea T-Jet with full of performance and packed with features. No takers for that too. The saying, 'Damn if you do, damn if you don't' applies to FIAT India. Poor chaps.
Quote:
- Poor brand image
FIAT India are trying their best to correct that.
Quote:
Year 2009 - Launch Of Fiat Punto/Linea
Year 2014 - Death Of Fiat Punto/Linea
Oh, you have already decided that?
Quote:
it is as simple as that.
Poor Sergio Marchionne does not know that. Hope, he sees this thread and take immediate corrective action as explained.

Generally, I don't react to FIAT-bashing posts/threads. But, this post of mine is an exception.

Last edited by J.Ravi : 29th February 2012 at 09:17.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:09   #25
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

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Originally Posted by architect View Post
Exactly which model and variant from Fiat (there are only two discounting the 500!) do you find overpriced currently?
I have booked the Punto 90 HP recently - and must say - I hate FIAT's pricing strategy. The cars are definitely overpriced and to compensate for that - they give offers.

Within a month of launch of the 2012 models - they are officially giving insurance and corporate discounts free. IMO some marketing research firm would have told them that customers want discounts, more than VFM price tags.

Here are the price tags of a few diesel cars in the market (OTR Chennai - Collected last week. All without discounts.).

Liva GD(SP)-6,89,550.
Tata Vista - 7,20,000.
Nissan Micra XV Premium - 7,23,679.
Swift ZDi - 7,81,255.
FIAT Grande Punto Emotion - 7,93,653.
i20 Asta - 8,17,155.
Skoda Fabia Elegance - 8,25,957.
FIAT Grande Punto 90 HP - 8,34,429.
Polo 1.2 Highline - 8,46,647.

Punto 90 HP exceeds i20 Asta by a good margin (And i20 has better features list, and interior quality). Punto Emotion is priced decently above Swift ZDi (Which is an equally competent car and its from MS stable). If they expect people to walk in and buy the car - price has to be mouth watering too!

Unlike the Skoda and VW brands who carry off that premium image - FIAT just cant afford to price it so high. And unlike Skoda and VW - FIAT does not show off premium quality either to justify the price (Interiors being a BIG case in point).

Its another case that the cars are brilliant to drive - but then - how different will a Swift/ Polo/ Punto feel in a short test drive - for the masses to recognize that fact? Even if they do - how many actually care for such small differences? Remember, Team Bhp reflects only a minor community of the people who are out there buying/ driving cars.

That said - Future is pure luck! One model can change a company - like what Swift did, for MS.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 29th February 2012 at 09:20.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:10   #26
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

+ 1 to everything that J.Ravi has said. Plus:
- the only plastic that has fallen off from my Punto (21 months/28k kms) is a toy placed by my son on its dashboard.

Mods, please close this thread; this is nothing but trolling.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:22   #27
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

Looks like a clarification is required -

- Fiat is one of my three favorite manufacturers in India - the other being Tata & Mitsubishi. I really wish to see Fiat move up the market share table.

- I almost bought the Punto in 2010. The only reason why I didn't buy the Punto is because, um.. My feet are too wide! When I placed my leg on the dead pedal, it would touch the clutch pedal too. So yes, I did ignore the stories of bad service, reliability, power, mileage and so on, and *almost* bought a Fiat. I hope to buy one in the future though - perhaps Alfa Romeo?

- When somebody asks for my advice on hatchback, I ask them to check out the Punto. That's when I hear all that I mentioned in the beginning.

Coming back to the main point that I've been trying to articulate (not so well, apparently), no manufacturer can afford to launch only one model and be successful. Not in India, not anywhere in the world.

Last edited by smartcat : 29th February 2012 at 09:24.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:27   #28
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

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Originally Posted by aditya116 View Post
- What if they had refused to licensce MJDs to suzuki and kept it between TATA and themselves?
Then Fiat probably would have been out of India by now. The Engine money which Fiat makes in India used to be much greater than it's car sales turnover. Don't know if that's still the case.

And there were other European Diesel makers all ready to license their diesels to Maruti when Maruti opted for Fiat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aditya116 View Post
The swift diesel played a huge role in popularising concept of refined,powerful,economic diesel hatches.On the other hand if MJD was launched only in a FIAT first,may be it would have garnered more sales in absence of a competitor, but again maybe FIAT makes more out of licensing engines.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:29   #29
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

There are way too many generalizations in this thread, about the servicing, about the sales, about the support and about the build quality of the cars. The way I see it, most of the Fiat bashing is done by people who haven't owned Fiats, and this thread is no exception. I don't see any point in reading the discussions on this thread. There are a couple of other threads where the bashing can continue. Here is one of them.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/hatchb...omer-care.html (Is a FIAT worth it ? With regard to the after sales service and customer care)

I request mods to please close this thread. It serves no purpose

Quote:
- Poor reliability
now where did that come from? blind statements like these are highly misleading to readers.

Quote:
- Poor after sales service
entirely subjective and dependent on the dealer. Prerana and Concorde motors at Bangalore are way better than most other brands' service centres here. I have experienced the servicing at Maruti, Hyundai and Fiat and can safely guarantee that Fiat technicians here are equally proficient as the other 2 brands, if not better.

Quote:
- Poor mileage
Compared to which model? Linea and Punto deliver around the same figures as their contemporaries. The only Fiat with a low fuel efficiency is perhaps the powerful Palio 1.6, but what else can you expect from a 1.6 engine?

Quote:
- Not so powerful heavy cars
On the contrary, Fiat is perhaps the only company which offers powerful AND heavy cars Palio 1.6 GTX/S10, Linea T-Jet and Punto 90 HP are classic examples.


Quote:
All these years, if you go to a Fiat showroom, you don't get to choose a car.
What exactly is meant by this statement? Why would I not get to choose my car? If a car is in production and on sale, you can choose any car you want. No one forces you to buy a Punto over Linea or otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Coming back to the main point that I've been trying to articulate (not so well, apparently), no manufacturer can afford to launch only one model and be successful. Not in India, not anywhere in the world.
Not always true. If you recall HMSI (honda 2 wheelers) entered India with just the Honda Activa and it became such a runaway success, for almost 3-4 years they just had Activa and perhaps a little later, the Dio on sale, yet they were remarkably successful. But then, they had the honda brand image in their hands.

Last edited by KarthikK : 29th February 2012 at 09:35.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:37   #30
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Default Re: Why Fiat Has Failed In The Past, Present & Will Continue To Fail In The Future

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Originally Posted by J.Ravi View Post
Generally, I don't react to FIAT-bashing posts/threads. But, this post of mine is an exception.
Ravi Ji, yes it is. I was surprised to see your reaction to this thread. But, what ever you have listed out is truly genuine and there can't be any objection to that.

I am still confused about the purpose of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Liva GD(SP)-6,89,550.
Tata Vista - 7,20,000.
Nissan Micra XV Premium - 7,23,679.
Swift ZDi - 7,81,255.
FIAT Grande Punto Emotion - 7,93,653.
i20 Asta - 8,17,155.
Skoda Fabia Elegance - 8,25,957.
FIAT Grande Punto 90 HP - 8,34,429.
Polo 1.2 Highline - 8,46,647.
Dear CraZy dRiVeR, when a manufacturer is not selling great, they will eventually be forced to offer discounts. Indian mass love for discounts. GP 90 should be available at 8L OTR Chennai after discounts. But, if they have priced low and do not offer any discount, again Fiat will be criticized as well.

Let me not compare GP with Polo or Fabia. You have already tagged them as premium brands (I have different opinion though). A 75 HP, Swift ZDI costs 7.83L without any free accessories even for a penny. For me, the most overpriced products are definitely not from Fiat.
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