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Old 1st March 2012, 23:06   #46
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

I think new Swift can very well be launched with
- VGT DDiS 90 HP diesel
- 1.4 100 ps K series
- 15 inch 195 sections tyres

Makings of a hot hatch ?
I think so
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Old 1st March 2012, 23:44   #47
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

The way I see it, the lack of a true budget performance segment in India is perfectly down to a one-size-does-not-fit-all scenario. What do I mean?

The international performance hatches were never made for India. Their engine options- in existing form, would make these cars to be priced at not less than 15 lakhs.

This is why, I have strongly believe it is the Indian manufacturers who really can make a difference here. I always cite this example of Tata previewing a rally-spec Indica some decades ago - when the Indica brandname was still rather new.

And by Indian manufacturers, I dont mean Maruti Suzuki - who will only sell what their parent organization asks them to.

So really, only Tata and Mahindra can truly make a difference to the Indian hot hatch market - if they want to. Only these manufacturers can turn around the scenario of performance motoring being a niche segment as it is today.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 01:01   #48
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

It is a nice thread that you have started TSK.
Of most of the manufactures, I feel Skoda has the imagination

1) Skoda vRS
2) Skoda Fabia vRS (Diesel version, with buckets of torque and lowered fuel costs it made everyday race day) - Not for India though
3) Skoda Fabia 1.6
4) Skoda Laura TSI

I would not leave Maruti, Ford and Mitsubishi behind as well.

My take is, Why not use this as an oppurtunity and let the creativity flow. Instead of dashing out a pure performance car in your hands, What's on offer is a value for money offering that can be used as a platform.

Eg> A new Maruti Swift Lxi would be a good bet if you plan on
- Garnet or HKS turbo kit / Red Rooster Turbo kit
- RD ECU / Remap
- Racing camshafts / pistons
- A close ratio gear box
- Performance / Racing / Rally suspensions

You have converted a plain jane Swift to a non-linear accelarating toy for not more than 8 lakhs.

Further more, a remapped Ford Fiesta Classic 1.6 goes from 101 to 130 BHP. Some Bilistien shocks would multply the fun factor in the twisties.

The aftermarket kits are getting better at reliabilty, where we have an option to plug and play, while not being worried about our cars being used as a testing ground.

The question is, Are we using our trained eye to leverage such cheap platforms available in India and turn it into a car with substance with our lucrative imagination?
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Old 2nd March 2012, 01:24   #49
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

A good thread and some beautiful discussions. I would not call the manufacturers "not courageous" to launch something in those lines. The keyword is sales & profit for all! If we take some examples of the so called cars launched.

1. Palio 1.6 - flop [based on the number sold]
2. Fabia 1.6 - flop
3. Polo 1.6 - flop
4. Fiesta 1.6S - flop
5. Cedia Sports - flop

In a country so obsessed with "Kitna Deti hai" attitude coupled with bad drivers and poor infrastructure, this will be a bad decision from a manufacturer. There simply is NOT a market for such cars. And adding a bigger / powerful engine will add to additional costs which takes the price to a whole new level. Any manufacturer will think why do we need to make cars for a such a niche segment of customers and will they even get the money invested into it! To me it's sensible from their part NOT to commit such a mistake, but again a handful of such customers lose out.

Edit:: Some of you could come back & tell me that some cars were over priced [in the above list]. But then doesn't that reflect on what manufacturers can expect from the market & the mindset of customers towards such cars?

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 2nd March 2012 at 01:28.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 01:31   #50
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

Anyone remember the Getz Crdi?

That was a hot hatch and came up short only in areas of handling.

The one that easiest to do today with min to zero investment/risk is to put the 1.6 diesel from the Vento into a POLO.

I would have no problem paying 50K extra for that car.

Last edited by Mpower : 2nd March 2012 at 17:57.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 02:53   #51
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
The one that easiest to do today with min to zero investment/risk is to put the 1.6 diesel from the Vento into a POLO.

I would have no problem paying 50K extra for that car.
agree but car manufacturers are skeptical about how many "I" are ready to buy this 1.6 Diesel Polo i believe. Just to quote an example, In Bangalore top end Polo diesel is 8.8L AFAIR (i checked in Mangalore). now Plus 50K makes it say 9.3L. Now other than we enthusiast, how many really would buy a hatch for 9L plus.

May be if they introduce same in the base variant with 50K extra then there might be some interest. For sure there are buyers who dont want rear power windows but want 1.6L engine in Polo, but i guess numbers are pretty less and wont be attractive for manufacturer to cater to this limited audience.

Also like swiftnitrous said "for country obsessed with mileage where Merc BMW owners too buy diesel vehicle" petrol hot hatch definitely strict no no. And when it comes to diesel, its already relatively priced higher than petrol. Plus additional cost of having bigger diesel engine means an expensive hatch with less buyers! so ultimately it will be a flop. So easiest way out for enthusiast would to get done after market like suspension, brake upgrade, ECU, tuner box etc.

Last edited by recshenoy : 2nd March 2012 at 02:58.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 03:12   #52
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

What do manufacturers and their investors stand to gain through that extra courage? We all know that the market is too small to entice any manufacturer to make a serious attempt. So why question bravery of manufacturers?

May be a more relevant question is - why aren't there enough (or I should say a corporate backed, trustworthy) performance tuning houses, who can tune stock hatches into hot hatches for the needy? Today I wouldn't hand over my car to a mom-pop tuner for I don't know what will happen to my car. But I wouldn't be so scared if it is a trustworthy place with enough expertise.

The volumes though not enough to lure manufacturers should be good enough for such performance tuning houses to sustain.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 08:30   #53
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
We DO NOT have the INFRASTRUCTURE for these kind of cars. Plain and simple.

We are a nation of senseless and uneducated drivers.

How many times have we seen on the highways:
-Santro driven at 120+
-i10 driven at 130+
-Swift driven at 140+
-Vernas driven at 150+
-Scorpios driven at 120+

How stable are these vehicles at these speeds? Imagine stopping from such speeds!

Now imagine a 200hp 'hot' hatch in the hands of these people! Already the number of accidents on our highways are on the rise exponentially. How do you ensure that all people who drive hot hatches drive sensibly?

P.S. I understand not all accidents are due to 'high' speeds but our highways are not safe for speeds above 100 for cars and 70-80 for motorcycles.
And to add to the worry morons riding TVS champ and comming from opposite side on same lane, its the famous spider-man quote " with great power comes great responsibility", I don't doubt there are responsible drivers out on road, but the number on the other side is too much to handle.

And one more point is missing from the list - trained stuffs, TSK mentioned TATA putting a 150 bhp plant in Indica, for sure that cars engineering will be different, the tata guys run here and there if any minor technical issue comes in a Punto/Linea/Aria/Safari, how they are going to handle hot hatches? for other makers also, you can not have 2 sets of technicians in service center, that will add to the cost.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 10:08   #54
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

There is a point after which courage becomes stupidity. Trying to sell a hot hatch in India and investing even a penny is a folly.

The closest ever anyone got in India was Chevy with their SRV. I remember seeing one in Forum mall about 5 years back. But I have seen only one after that on road till today. I don't even think the sales numbers ever touched triple digits.

So, basically nobody really wants them in India and there is no point in talking about it.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 10:18   #55
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

There will not be enough number of takers to balance the pricing for a hot-hatch in India. It requires a true enthusiast to chip in an additional couple of lakhs on a 'supercharged' Swift when a Swift that does its job well is already available, that said, such a true enthusiast will not hesitate to go for aftermarket products to 'supercharge' it.

IMHO, bringing in a hot-hatch in India would definitely find takers, but not enough takers to keep the price of the hot-hatch < 7 lakhs.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 10:22   #56
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prakash_ajp View Post
There is a point after which courage becomes stupidity. Trying to sell a hot hatch in India and investing even a penny is a folly.



So, basically nobody really wants them in India and there is no point in talking about it.
Not being disrespectful or quarrelsome, but are you suggesting a discussion forum should not dwell on the possibilities that can come to pass?

I think hot hatches are very much a possibility if the vehicle were to be powered by a fuel the price of which is not shooting up to the stratosphere.

Satisfy the condition regarding running costs and there are enough and more in the younger generation who are aware enough and appreciative enough about hot hatches that a market segment will evolve which while being niche will provide enough volume to justify it.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 10:42   #57
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

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Originally Posted by RS_DEL View Post
Not being disrespectful or quarrelsome, but are you suggesting a discussion forum should not dwell on the possibilities that can come to pass?
Not at all, I understand what you mean. It's just that I am being pessimistic (or should I say realistic) about the difficult times we all live in. Even in western countries people are becoming more conscious of rising fuel prices and consumption. And I don't think future is going to be any better. While I am hoping for some miracle, I can't say I expect that to happen.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 10:58   #58
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

If you ask me, I would say that hot-hatches would constitute a niche market in India taking in account the number of minority buyer community constituted by enthusiasts and elite! I say elite because I know of many elite (non-enthusiast) people who've bought a GTX over a 1.2 ELX as a second or third car just because it was the most expensive one in the entire line-up! Even on our forum, I remember reading on several threads about S10 and likes being used by owners to drop their kid at school, drivers dropping the ladies to market for buying vegetable and what not! So I can vouch that if any manufactures launches a hot hatch there would be relatively good number of takers.

I'm hoping that some top-honchos of the manufactures read through this thread and offer us a true hot hatch, may be as a limited edition car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I know a lot will say, Fiat Palio was a hot hatch.And I just feel like laughing
I, for one, still maintain my stand that Fiat Palio 1.6 GTX/S10 is a true Indian hot hatch. While the Indians could only potter around in puny 1.2 engine powered cars, Fiat Palio was the only hatch that could literally even smoke cars of higher segments. It had everything that a hot hatch needed sans poor braking, that too at a mouth watering price! The fact that the car flopped a big time, taking the sales into account, is another story

Then I believe that in this point of time, a hatch would need at the least 125 BHPs to be a worthy equivalent of what Fiat Palio 1.6 was, a decade ago. Period!

Quote:
100bhp/ton is a nice P/W ratio for a minivan for a soccer mom, but a hot hatch... Nah.
If you're talking about Fiat Palio 1.6 GTX, then you've got the power to weight ratio wrong! The power to weight ratio is 92.6 BHP per tonne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
We DO NOT have the INFRASTRUCTURE for these kind of cars. Plain and simple
Though I agree with the points put forward by you, I would like to point out that enthusiasts care more about how fast a car can does 0-100 rather than the top-speed.

My two cents

Last edited by Klub Class : 2nd March 2012 at 11:02.
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Old 2nd March 2012, 11:03   #59
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage.. or its just lack of Imagination?

I love the idea of hot hatch but again in the world of Kitna Deti Hai I am skeptical about how it can sustain. And like few said, TATAs are the best bet here. Get a barebone Indica with optional ABS/Airbags and an aggressive body kit. The present body shape wouldnt do good for the Hot Hatch status.

OT,
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigeltufnel View Post
Yeah, and then we'll have Figos going at 180 kph with parts flying off it
Was this just an *in air* statement or you really mean to say something here?
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Old 2nd March 2012, 11:52   #60
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Default Re: Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klub Class View Post
Though I agree with the points put forward by you, I would like to point out that enthusiasts care more about how fast a car can does 0-100 rather than the top-speed.

My two cents
Absolutely agree with you. But the point here is how do you sell these cars only to enthusiasts? We have morons who drive a Scorpio and Octys at breakneck speeds within the city. These are illiterate/irresponsible people who just got their hands on some money by selling ancestral property etc. Or goons who have looted innocent people. How do we ensure that we don't sell these 'hot hatches' to these people?
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