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Old 18th March 2012, 21:06   #61
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

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To be very true, its the Auto companies who are making hay. Auto manufacturers are themselves charging huge premiums from Diesel car buyers. e.g. a diesel variant of an equivalent petrol car is priced ~ 1L more. All the profit is going into Auto companies pocket.

Govt. has borrowed the idea of increasing duties on diesel private vehicles from the Auto companies themselves. Further I see no reason why Diesel supplied to private vehicle owners should be subsidized substantially. For Agricultural & Transport sector, its understandable but no rational when it comes to private vehicles.

To add more, taxes/duties on expensive/luxury Private vehicles should be increased multi-fold but the budget end which is commute oriented should be spared.

Huge incentives should be offered on vehicles running on alternate fuels, elec, etc. At the same time a tab on ex-showroom prices should be kept so that Auto companies do not negate the subsidy effect. i.e. incentives given should percolate down to the end consumer.
The Diesel variants of many vehicles cost more to manufacture than equivalent petrol variants. But you have a point in as much as that many manufacturers charge unreasonable premium for Diesel variants.

You are totally correct in that there is no need to subsidize Diesel used by private vehicles. But then, what about Diesel used by generators in private industries or residences, or cellphone towers? The Government should find an effective way to limit Diesel subsidy to only agricultural and public transport sectors. The original proposal to levy a one- time duty on Diesel cars becomes relevant in this context. The Government should also consider levying something similar on Diesel generators.

Your argument of penalizing "expensive/luxury Private vehicles" and sparing "budget end which is commute oriented" is debatable. Already the tax levied by the Governments, at Central and State levels, are on these lines. Small cars with small engines attract least taxes, and large cars with big engines already are taxed at high rates, which are comparable to other Asian countries, and even the "tax hell" countries of Western Europe. What more could be done in that direction, I don't know.

Alternative fuels are a good idea, but will find increased significance only if there is adequate infrastructure, and even before that, a clear direction evolves on what type of fuel(s) are viable and sustainable. And what you have pointed out on the end- user aspect is perfectly right, as the auto companies, especially in Europe, benefit by twisting FE & emission legislations to their interests, rather than that of the consumers.
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Old 18th March 2012, 21:28   #62
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

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You are totally correct in that there is no need to subsidize Diesel used by private vehicles. But then, what about Diesel used by generators in private industries or residences, or cellphone towers?
For one, there isn't any subsidy, it's actually lower taxation. As for mobile towers running on diesel power, that too is the government's own created pit by not creating enough power infrastructure to meet demand, and restricting private players.
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Old 18th March 2012, 21:33   #63
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

Few observations below:

1) Dont punish someone for being rich by levying huge charges on large cars that are already taxed heavily

2) Dont wish bad for people driving diesel cars just cause you own a petrol one, rather shift towards diesel, not only as the fuel costs less but also the cars give more FE

3) The government should not reduce fuel subsidies under pressure. Common man and middle class deserve a bailout/subsidy

4) You dont solve problems of fuel subsidy, deficit etc, buy increasing taxes and decreasing growth, rather you should make policies to spur growth so that even with lower taxes you have a surplus

5) Take of your sunglasses and stop knee jerk reactions to international banking collapse in 2008 to Greece debacle in 2011... We should focus on our own policies rather than just following global trends blindly (albeit global economies are now linked)

6) Government makes more money on taxes as cost of fuel goes up, its time for government to stop making that money and pass the benefit to tax payer

7) Cost of oil more to do with speculation than any actual shortage. Its time globally to reign in on speculators.

Last edited by aseem : 18th March 2012 at 21:35.
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Old 18th March 2012, 21:44   #64
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

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For one, there isn't any subsidy, it's actually lower taxation. As for mobile towers running on diesel power, that too is the government's own created pit by not creating enough power infrastructure to meet demand, and restricting private players.
Well, that I should admit, is the more correct way of looking at the issue. How could I overlook it?

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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
2) Dont wish bad for people driving diesel cars just cause you own a petrol one, rather shift towards diesel, not only as the fuel costs less but also the cars give more FE

4) You dont solve problems of fuel subsidy, deficit etc, buy increasing taxes and decreasing growth, rather you should make policies to spur growth so that even with lower taxes you have a surplus
2) seems to be, well, a slap in the face for many!

4) when are our governments going to exit this bottomless pit of overspending and this vicious spiral of burdensome taxation to fund the squander and swindle?
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Old 18th March 2012, 22:16   #65
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

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At the end of the day, the budget is just an media circus which really doesn't affect people most of the time. All FMs believe in the time tested principle of - You give some, you take some!

When it comes to cars, increase in excise duty by a couple of percentage points really doesn't affect purchasing decisions that much thanks to the magic of EMIs. If a customer wants a car from a particular segment, he'll go for it anyway.
Might be true for most cases, but there will be some who might be put off if the car really is/was not worth it. I had really decided on the jetta. But got to learn from the sales guy that the price for the Trendline is now 18L and Comfortline is 20L. All I would want to say is good luck VW especially with the kind of attitude your dealership has.
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Old 18th March 2012, 22:58   #66
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Govt decides to increase the excise amount on diesel cars then some auto makers may be forced to slash there own price a little and in the end the consumer may not have to pay a lot more than what he is paying now. no such subsidy. Its just that the taxes are lower.
subsidy on LPG cylinders (middle) is a much bigger culprit in adding to the losses of the govt.
Wishful thinking, I did that too but later realized that Auto makers would not cut their margins & why should they! They are here for profits, for the pie.

Yes there's no subsidy on Cars but on fuel(diesel), for private vehicle owners there should not be a distinction between the two fuels.

Govt. has been crushing citizens with taxes, it pains more because the money collected is distributed among the corrupt. The funds are not put to any good use, as is so very evident.

Regarding LPG, I would not agree on the middle class. If subsidies are abolished/reduced, middle class will the worst affected. For the lower class Govt. is already providing many schemes & the rich are not affected by inflation. So why crush the middle class, they survive because of subsidies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeldo View Post
The Diesel variants of many vehicles cost more to manufacture than equivalent petrol variants.
Diesel used by generators in private industries or residences, or cellphone towers? The original proposal to levy a one- time duty on Diesel cars becomes relevant in this context. The Government should also consider levying something similar on Diesel generators.
argument of penalizing "expensive/luxury Private vehicles" and sparing "budget end which is commute oriented" is debatable.
Some diesels may be costing more to manufacture viz their petrol counterparts but I was concerned more about the mass selling products e.g. Swift, Figo, Punto, Sunny, Corolla, etc. Even if some diesels cost a little more to produce, companies charge huge premium. All this because of demand for diesels.

I would have included more to the list but generators are a different cup of tea. We are talking of Power here which is again a necessity. This sector can be regulated & distinguish between genset sizes. Also calculate the capacity required.

Budget end cars have to be patronised & higher capacity discouraged. When the basic need to commuting is met, luxury could be taxed. A consumer who is buying a S class, is already paying a huge un-necessary premium to the company, addition of tax there will not matter much.

On policies & Governance: The less said the better but we have to realize one thing here that we are responsible ourselves for the state our Country is in & the fact that how bad/worse the policies are, they cannot be overturned-overnight. Now we have to do what best we can with these Govts. & their set of policies.

We can push the Govt. to formulate a good policy on Environment friendly cars running on alternate fuels. Also force the Govts. to be more accountable on the taxes collected. "Accountability" will bring about all-around development.
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Old 18th March 2012, 23:11   #67
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

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The Diesel variants of many vehicles cost more to manufacture than equivalent petrol variants. But you have a point in as much as that many manufacturers charge unreasonable premium for Diesel variants.
Well, Don't ask me how I know this but I know it for the fact that Diesel Vehicles are cross subsidized by its petrol counterparts by almost all the manufacturers. Cost difference between Diesel Engine, Transmission, Gearbox and many other changes as compared to petrol cars easily cross 1.1 to 1.3 Lakh even in small cars, which might easily add upto a price of 1.3 to 1.5 Lakh. So the argument of Unreasonable premium is not true and in fact it doesn't makes sense even from companies' point of view. Let me just assure this is the primary reason why i10 is not sold with diesel engine in India whereas diesel-i10 is available in Europe even-though the car gets manufactured in Hyundai's Chennai plant.

Last edited by anu21v : 18th March 2012 at 23:14.
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Old 18th March 2012, 23:12   #68
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

With due respect to all those discussing for last 10-15 posts. Please restrict your discussion to what is this budget about and only its impact on Auto industry.

Dont make this a petrol car Vs diesel care debate. Nor make it a should diesel be subsidized thread. There are other changes in budget for which discussion the thread is created.

According to me one big take away is the new 1.6l slab, funny that no one is discussing it but we are beating around the bush for the 100th time on Diesel vs petrol.

Mods: Request you to either intervene or atleast close the thread.
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Old 19th March 2012, 06:33   #69
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

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What will happen to My Toyota Fortuner?
Which left fectory at 4 pm(15th march) and will reach to me on 17th,18th? Delivery will be on 18th,19th.
Dealer still dont have price increase info!
Am i still going to charged extra Duty ?
What a Luck !!!
If it left factory gates before Midnight 15.03.12, then you SHOULD not be charged extra!!

Last edited by headers : 19th March 2012 at 06:38.
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Old 19th March 2012, 06:46   #70
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If you want to save money, buy a cheaper car.
Do you own a car in India?
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Old 19th March 2012, 10:59   #71
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I could never understand the link between engine size and exhaust duty. Hypothetically I can make a 1.4 liter gas guzzler, and pay less duty than a 1.6 liter engine with 50% better fuel economy.
It just shows the IQ of the people actually making this budget. The world has moved on, sadly, this country cannot get its head around the fact that with no public transport infrastructure in place, a car is no longer a luxury, its a necessity!
I couldn't understand the link between the engine size and "exhaust duty" as well .

As usual, petrol guys think diesel guys get away with it etc. etc. Well, I for one loved petrols till diesels became better in terms of drivability, more fuel efficient, more powerful, and so on. Now I can't even drive a petrol car because I can get an equally or more powerful vehicle which needs lesser trips to the fuel station

Excise duty in my opinion should be levied based on a matrix of fuel efficiency, pollution levels generated or even seating capacity of the vehicle. Simply looking at size of engines and length of the car is kind of primitive thinking.
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Old 19th March 2012, 11:31   #72
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

Isn't it ridiculous to effectively increase the price of bicycles, and then allotting a 200 Cr Rs. to study on environmental safety.

Same goes with the favor towards Diesel. Its high time, cleaner cars\fuels like hybrids, are given the favors rather than forcing for the masses to go for polluting fuels like Diesel.
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Old 19th March 2012, 11:52   #73
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How much money has been allocated to infrastructure development? Can we see some good roads in the coming years where we can drive at one speed (60 kmph?) constantly in the outskirts of the city (such as, ring roads) that shoots up the efficiency of small engines to 20+ kmpl?

PS: I know for sure that Swift/Ritz petrol can be as efficient at their diesel counterparts when driven at constant speeds.

Last edited by rohanjf : 19th March 2012 at 11:53.
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Old 19th March 2012, 13:52   #74
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Default Re: The 2012 Budget & the Indian Car Scene : All you need to know

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I could never understand the link between engine size and exhaust duty. Hypothetically I can make a 1.4 liter gas guzzler, and pay less duty than a 1.6 liter engine with 50% better fuel economy.
It just shows the IQ of the people actually making this budget. The world has moved on, sadly, this country cannot get its head around the fact that with no public transport infrastructure in place, a car is no longer a luxury, its a necessity!
Hit it like a hammer!!! that the expression that flashed my mind.

The so called IT hub has no transport facility at all beyond 10:30PM.
Now, getting a cab or an auto rick is pointless, then again I cannot walk home because of horrible police staff.

I believe this is the only country where beurocrats sit around the table and decide. OK. now lets give this price hike syrup and see how these dumb lab mouses fry (We Indians) and have some fun.
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Old 19th March 2012, 18:01   #75
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Hit it like a hammer!!! that the expression that flashed my mind.

The so called IT hub has no transport facility at all beyond 10:30PM.
Now, getting a cab or an auto rick is pointless, then again I cannot walk home because of horrible police staff.

I believe this is the only country where beurocrats sit around the table and decide. OK. now lets give this price hike syrup and see how these dumb lab mouses fry (We Indians) and have some fun.
hey kozhimuttai! this city was never known only of IT! check the scales, you will know what bad this industry has done to a otherwise wonderful city!

Forget about politicians or other governing authorities taking ages to decide and execute things, what about the ever cribbing 'we' doing about making things simpler? I see many people in my office driving down in a Xylo or an Innova with just them inside!! I mean a seven/eight seater vehicle for just one person??? isn't that ridiculous??

What justification do these folks have?? Are they real bothered about other road users? What wrong if taxes are increased on these vehicles? In my opinion taxes should be made even more stricter on bigger vehicles that are registered for personal use.
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