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Old 17th April 2012, 12:55   #16
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

Let's say a Rs 5 hike is allowed for petrol which I think is a must now because of the "subsidy" burden and the pathetic fiscal situation the country currently is in, what happens next? Such a huge investment in diesel engines is evidence to the fact of market realities where consumer demand for passenger cars currently is in a 80:20 skew in favor of diesel. Multiply this over the next 12-24 months and the government will have to deal with even a much larger "subsidy" bill for diesel or totally forego tax/vat on it. Things are only going to go south till the time the government bites the bullet and imposes some kind of additional tax on diesel passenger cars to run the engines of the government.

Here is the link Current account deficit threat to India's financial stability: RBI - The Economic Times to the mess (remember 1992?) we are heading into as of now with an out of control subsidy bill.
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Old 17th April 2012, 14:30   #17
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

Where do the bi fuel cars with LPG/CNG stand?

Whatever the fuel prices, the government seems to have frozen on this issue.
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Old 17th April 2012, 15:52   #18
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
And to add to the point, the price difference between petrol and diesel so substantial that, even newer petrol engines like the 1.0 Ecoboost (Ford) or the 1.4TSI (VAG), may not bring much improvement to the sales of petrol powered cars.
Very true. No new car launch can dream about volumes with a petrol-only offering, it seems. Look at it this way:

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Originally Posted by C300 View Post
What a contrasting state of affairs at Honda and Fiat
If only there was a way to rate a post with 5 stars!

One has the brand & car that the market wants, but no diesels. The other...Fiat & Honda should do the unthinkable. Elope, get married and give birth to some wonderful kids (i.e. a Honda Jazz with the 1.3L MJD).

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Originally Posted by hrman View Post
Will we ever see a time when the price difference between Petrol and diesel is very narrow?(
Even if the gap comes down, remember that diesel engines are still more fuel-efficient. Consider Europe; diesel doesn't have the kind of subsidies there, yet diesel cars are the more popular.

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Originally Posted by vinair View Post
So what is the future of petrol engines??
There will always be diehard enthusiasts like us who insist on buying a petrol for the sheer driving pleasure .
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Old 17th April 2012, 16:55   #19
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

The country's really going over-board with diesel. But are we analysing as a informed community, whether we really need diesel or are we following a horde mentality. Diesel has its advantages, but the offset in price of diesel cars by manufacturers, is it really justified?

Lets take for example the Beat Diesel. Does it really cost Chevrolet the 85K extra, that it is charging, to make it. If anything, the cost to the manufacturer must be almost same between the diesel and petrol variants. Why then this difference? Aren't all these manufacturers cashing in on our lust for diesel and laughing all the way to the bank!

I remember when Skoda first launched the Octavia, it was the 1st manufacturer to price it's diesel and petrol variants at the same cost. And now, it prices the Diesel Superb, a whopping 5 lacs extra from its petrol sibling!! God knows, you will need to drive a crazy 2 lacs kms to justify the extra cost paid for this particular variant. Now why is that justified? Or are we just going diesel-crazy without analysing the long term costs and gains/losses. Even I was inclined towards diesel at some point of time, but with the rapidly growing gulf between the price of diesel vs petrol cars vis-a-vis` the fuel cost, analysis needs to set in.

And what is stopping the government to tax diesel cars in the next budget, if they didn't do it in this one? What then?

Please analyse your driving needs before jumping blindly for a diesel variant. I would say for now, go petrol, save the extra moolah, get better discounts, save the environment, get better driving pleasure and be a PETROLHEAD...
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Old 17th April 2012, 19:17   #20
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

Petrol still command lion's share of market in volume segment.

If we look at March sales data, 3 out of top 5 cars (by volume) do not have diesel engines. I.e. Alto, WagonR and EON.

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Old 17th April 2012, 19:48   #21
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

While it may be 60% cheaper to tank up diesel in cars, I am really worried about the environmental impact of ever increasing diesel cars can have on an already polluted country like ours. While I don't want everyone to walk and keep the air fresh and clean, I have serious problems with government subsidy for a known dirty fuel like diesel. Health concerns about diesel exhaust / particulates relate to cancer, lung (respiratory) and heart diseases. Various studies have shown that diesel exhaust can lead to health problems, such as asthma, headache, heart disease, eye irritation and other lung diseases and possibly immune system problems. While I agree that Diesel may give out less greenhouse gases due to it being more efficient in terms of mileage, but there are other factors like suspended particulate matters which are very harmful. CO2 is not everything.

We all are petrolheads and love our cars, but in my opinion, the health concerns cannot be ignored - especially for kids, sick and elderly. There is a reason why many developed nations discourage diesel usage and is actually expensive to fill up diesel there. I would love to read GTO's take on this.

Edit: here is one TOI article, not very old.http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...gines-exposure

The researchers say that inhaled diesel particles are very tiny in size, which is why they can penetrate the human circulatory system, organs, and tissues. This suggests that diesel fumes can cause damage just about anywhere in the body.They say that this finding indicates that previous illness is not required to make humans susceptible to the damaging effects of the diesel exhaust.

Last edited by SunilM : 17th April 2012 at 19:55.
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Old 17th April 2012, 20:04   #22
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Petrol still command lion's share of market in volume segment.

If we look at March sales data, 3 out of top 5 cars (by volume) do not have diesel engines. I.e. Alto, WagonR and EON.
This may be because there is no diesel option in that bracket.

More importantly, the trend is indicative of overwhelming shift towards diesel powered cars.
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Old 17th April 2012, 21:04   #23
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by SunilM View Post
We all are petrolheads and love our cars, but in my opinion, the health concerns cannot be ignored - especially for kids, sick and elderly. There is a reason why many developed nations discourage diesel usage and is actually expensive to fill up diesel there. I would love to read GTO's take on this.

The researchers say that inhaled diesel particles are very tiny in size, which is why they can penetrate the human circulatory system, organs, and tissues. This suggests that diesel fumes can cause damage just about anywhere in the body.They say that this finding indicates that previous illness is not required to make humans susceptible to the damaging effects of the diesel exhaust.
Good point Sunil. But that said, the newer generation diesel cars have really stepped up to address the pollution concerns to a large extent. I guess more research and evolution have happened in this space, compared to petrol engines. Infact, the so called green technologies like BlueMotion (VW) or BlueEFFICIENCY (Mercedes) are promoted more on diesel engines (probably because Europe loves diesels).

Here in Singapore diesel cars used to have road tax almost 4 times in comparison to petrol cars, but with the arrival of cleaner diesel cars, the scene is changing (around 60% tax reduction). Already cars like Golf GTD and Jag XF-D are showing up its presence in this petrol dominated market.
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Old 17th April 2012, 21:44   #24
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Good point Sunil. But that said, the newer generation diesel cars have really stepped up to address the pollution concerns to a large extent. I guess more research and evolution have happened in this space, compared to petrol engines. Infact, the so called green technologies like BlueMotion (VW) or BlueEFFICIENCY (Mercedes) are promoted more on diesel engines (probably because Europe loves diesels).

Here in Singapore diesel cars used to have road tax almost 4 times in comparison to petrol cars, but with the arrival of cleaner diesel cars, the scene is changing (around 60% tax reduction). Already cars like Golf GTD and Jag XF-D are showing up its presence in this petrol dominated market.
What you say is true - but probably for high end diesel engines only. I am not an expert on diesel engines, but a 3L beat may be no where close to addressing pollution concern as a 30L Benz. Even high end diesels are not that clean either. Just think what a Nano or Eon diesel engine would be - they have to work within a very tight budget.

To quote from the above article -
Quote:
.. and we still have a lot of work to do to improve diesel engines so they generate fewer particles and exhaust that can be released into the ambient air, Sun added.
"The message from our study is that exposure to diesel exhaust for just a short time period of two months could give even normal tissue the potential to develop a tumour," said Qinghua Sun, senior author of the study.
Nothing against diesels, but for me it is personal. We have two young family members fighting cancer. One succumbed last year after fighting cancer bravely, as only she could. The other is still struggling and it is very very painful for the entire family. Reading studies that suggest diesels could increase chances of cancer (especially lung cancer) is an emotive issue for me - don't want any other family to go through what we have been through. Even if it is just a study. Same holds true for Asthma, heart diseases etc. I just pray that we find a good middle ground as I am fully aware that Diesel cars make a very strong economic sense in our country.

Last edited by SunilM : 17th April 2012 at 21:47.
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Old 17th April 2012, 22:24   #25
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

Couple of thoughts:
1. Would cars with diesel-engines become de-facto going forward in India? Would that cause the Govt to rethink/remove the subsidy which might again reverse the trend?
2. With more volumes and many more options to the consumer, would the manufacturers be forced to rethink the premium they charge for the diesel vehicles?
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Old 17th April 2012, 22:29   #26
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by simplyself View Post
This may be because there is no diesel option in that bracket.

More importantly, the trend is indicative of overwhelming shift towards diesel powered cars.
Beat and i10 are available in Diesel in this segment. Comparable car in the segment (Wagon R) outsells both.
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Old 17th April 2012, 22:36   #27
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
i10 in Diesel
Gosh!! When was i10 launched in diesel! Need to get it quickly... lolz
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Old 18th April 2012, 02:03   #28
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
India’s rising obsession with diesel worries govt

The growing preference for diesel by car buyers and industrial users over petrol and furnace oil has the government worried. The reason: the yawning gap between the prices of diesel and petrol has prompted a clear shift towards the former. A senior official in the Prime Minister’s Office told Hindustan Times: “High consumption of diesel is posing a serious threat to the environment and is encouraging a shift from other costlier fuels to diesel.”
I reckon the PMO's senior official has either returned from Antartica or from the moon! Else, he/she would have known by now that the government has already anticipated the "growing preference for diesel by car buyers."

And why should the Centre get worried about the shift from petrol to diesel? What has it done to discourage the use of subsidized fuel for private use? First, it is heavily subsidizing diesel; Second, it is constantly hiking petrol prices; Third, it did not levy a tax on private diesel cars, as was initially anticipated in the budget. When diesel is almost Rs 25-30 less than petrol per litre and when diesel engines are more fuel efficient, why should anyone opt for a petrol engine, especially when the car in question has a diesel variant?

Some one has suggested that petrol-only cars (Alto, Wagon-R, etc) are still hugely popular. Give these cars a diesel variant and see the difference. The Beat Petrol had mediocre sales until the diesel variant was launched.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SwiftSD View Post
Diesel consumption by private cars is no where close to the commercial vehicles probably the reason why no additional tax was implemented this time.
With the huge demand growing for the diesel option and given the huge petrol-diesel price difference, I suspect that diesel consumption would among private cars would grow rapidly. Remember, at one point in time, scooters were outselling motorcycles by a huge margin. Today, it is the other way round.

I also suspect that the diesel car lobby would exert every pressure on the government to abstain from that additional diesel tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrman View Post
Will we ever see a time when the price difference between Petrol and diesel is very narrow? Not in our lifetime I guess..
Such a situation has recently occurred during our lifetime: GOA. At present, the difference between petrol (Rs 55) and diesel (Rs 44) is barely Rs 11, thanks to the BJP government in the State. This has propelled advertisements for petrol cars over here.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
One has the brand & car that the market wants, but no diesels. The other...Fiat & Honda should do the unthinkable. Elope, get married and give birth to some wonderful kids (i.e. a Honda Jazz with the 1.3L MJD).
And what an offspring it would be: The Honda Jazz with the 1.3 MJD would be my ultimate dream car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Even if the gap comes down, remember that diesel engines are still more fuel-efficient. Consider Europe; diesel doesn't have the kind of subsidies there, yet diesel cars are the more popular.
I doubt, though, that diesel cars would be in huge demand in India if diesel prices were to be on par with petrol prices. Indians may be obsessed about FE no doubt, but the additional Rs 80,000 - Rs 1 lakh for the diesel variant would repel many Indian customers. I have come across quite a number of people who still feel that a diesel engine...

1. Is expensive to maintain.
2. Is not as reliable as a petrol engine.
3. Is very noisy compared to a petrol engine.

The only reason why this same set of people are willing to consider the diesel variant as opposed to the petrol variant is because of the diesel-petrol price difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
There will always be diehard enthusiasts like us who insist on buying a petrol for the sheer driving pleasure .
And then, some of these "diehard (petrol) enthusiasts" will go and buy a Nissan Sunny diesel, as and when the need arises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Beat and i10 are available in Diesel in this segment. Comparable car in the segment (Wagon R) outsells both.
The i10 does not have a diesel variant for the Indian market as of now.

Last edited by misquitas : 18th April 2012 at 02:21.
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Old 18th April 2012, 14:47   #29
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
  • Maruti intends to invest Rs. 1,700 crore on a new diesel engine plant at Gurgaon, Haryana. This facility will be operational by 2013, and running at a 300,000 engine / annum capacity by 2014.
Nice information GTO.

One question here.
Is Maruti coming up with diesel engine of their own or they have licensed additional capacity from Fiat.
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Old 18th April 2012, 19:11   #30
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by S.MJet View Post
Nice information GTO.

One question here.
Is Maruti coming up with diesel engine of their own or they have licensed additional capacity from Fiat.

Additional capacity from Fiat. I dont think Suzuki has any plans of developing diesel engines of their own until they are getting the brilliant DDiS from Fiat.
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