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Old 19th April 2012, 14:46   #31
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Beat and i10 are available in Diesel in this segment. Comparable car in the segment (Wagon R) outsells both.
You must have intended it to be i20.

Didnt Beat - D gained sales rapidly?
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Old 19th April 2012, 17:16   #32
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

This is a obvious move by the car manufacturers. I really am keen to know how much percent goes into different taxes on petrol? Here in Hyderabad, it costs somewhere around 74 I believe (Haven't filled petrol lately. :-) ). Does anyone know how much taxes are we actually paying for Petrol/Diesel for every litre?
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Old 20th April 2012, 17:20   #33
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

I am quite certain of the following

1. A majority of the diesel car seekers have never ever sat down and done the viability math i.e. the number of kilometres they will have to drive just to extinguish the premium paid up front for the Diesel vehicle. Whenever I have raised this question the answer is vague at best and inaccurate most of the time.

2. Fuel for a 30-50 lacs rupee Audi/BMW, this (diesel as an energy source) was not supposed to have become. This inconsistency in the fuel price is not something that can last forever. As a student of economics I cannot see this disparity as eternal in nature. The inconsistency was for created for the benefit of a specific audience and it is missing its mark somewhat. I am, in fact, quite certain that this policy wrinkle will get ironed out in the next 3-4 years, any time after 2014 for sure (at least for the private vehicle segment).
What will happen to the Diesel segment once that happens? Will the love affair continue?
Why is CNG not considered as a serious contender by all car makers?
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Old 20th April 2012, 18:08   #34
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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I am quite certain of the following

1. A majority of the diesel car seekers have never ever sat down and done the viability math i.e. the number of kilometres they will have to drive just to extinguish the premium paid up front for the Diesel vehicle. Whenever I have raised this question the answer is vague at best and inaccurate most of the time.

2. What will happen to the Diesel segment once that happens? Will the love affair continue?
I think it's not just the FE that people get when they spend that extra bit of money(applicable to some cars only in my opinion). Take the Vento's case for example. The diesel variant is actually much more torquey (or should I say fun to drive?) than the petrol variant. Yes if you spend that extra money on mods, you can make the petrol even more powerful but you wont get the FE.

And you are right buddy. This is not gonna last for ever. I don't think petrol prices will come down but I believe diesel prices will go up at a much higher rate.

And when it comes Eco-friendliness the petrols are way ahead. But that is not considered as a factor by 95% of the buyers. The future of petrol car in India (at least in the near future) doesn't look too bright if petrol price goes up like this.
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Old 20th April 2012, 18:26   #35
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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I am quite certain of the following

As a student of economics I cannot see this disparity as eternal in nature.
Maybe "Win elections at any cost" subject is not a part of Economics curriculum. Or for that matter "We have sold out to Car lobby". Things which look black and white on paper take a hideous shade of Grey when you mix in Indian Politics.
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Old 20th April 2012, 18:56   #36
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Maybe "Win elections at any cost" subject is not a part of Economics curriculum. Or for that matter "We have sold out to Car lobby". Things which look black and white on paper take a hideous shade of Grey when you mix in Indian Politics.
I don't think that is entirely correct. I'm not saying that Politicians are not susceptible to lobbyists but then consider the following - They will make the most money by engaging in mega projects for construction/repair of roads. The car lobby will love such a development as it relates directly and positively to their products viability.
Same with Fuel prices - if they were to decrease the taxes the car lobby and the consumers would love it - win-win for everyone or is it?

I feel that our politicians are concerned with "here and now" and not the larger picture. This can be a whole new forum so lets leave this.

Someone mentioned that the diesel engines are fun to drive. I beg to differ. I say, irrespective of fuel type, that 75% of the time driving in India is a necessary evil that we endure. It is only when we hit a highway (and then also only some of them) that we are able to enjoy what we have paid for.

I am made to drive in Delhi and I can tell you that it is rarely a pleasure. To enjoy the drive I must be on certain roads at certain times. It is during routine driving that I sometimes wonder - Would my driving pleasure be enhanced or the lack of it be alleviated if i was in a BMW?
For those rare occasions would i be better off renting a higher/better model to satiate my speed buds?

I strongly feel that that the time has come for our government to have a long term vision regarding the fuel we want to consume along with the petroleum based ones and start on a national distribution infrastructure for the same. "Low Diesel price concept" has already outlived its utility. It is hurting (unnecessarily) now.
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Old 20th April 2012, 19:07   #37
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

Thermodynamics says that the Diesel cycle (used in diesel engines) is more efficient than the Otto cycle (used in petrol engines).
As far as pollution is concerned, it has been clear for ages in India that rampant adulteration was the cause. With emphasis on cleaner fuels + new regulations, the situation has improved considerably.
I still recall when in a particular metro, you could not see across the road at night because of pollution.
Diesel engines operate at higher pressures, so need to be built heavier, which in turn needs stronger suspensions etc. Difference in costs between a diesel and a petrol should not be as high as the difference in prices charged by manufacturers. Market forces operate in peculiar ways. When the Maruti 800 first came out there was a roaring black market in the car., with the red variety fetching almost three times the official price. However, the man who made most money out of it reportedly was a guy in Goa, who dismantled his car and sold it as spares.
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Old 21st April 2012, 21:29   #38
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Thermodynamics says that the Diesel cycle (used in diesel engines) is more efficient than the Otto cycle (used in petrol engines).
AAH !! Class 12 thermodynamics, really made me nostalgic. Wonder when will someone make a car with a 100% energy efficient CARNOT engine. That will be the end of the thread (but sadly the name says it all, this engine is NOT-for-a-CAR).

Back to the diesel/petrol cost analysis, a friend of mine once gave me this valuable piece of advice - If you are planning to join a Gym, never take a annual/six monthly payment scheme. You will never continue gyming beyond the first month. It only when you pay monthly fees, that it pinches you regularly and ensures that you always turn up. WELL SAID & trust me, it definately works that way, atleast for me. Ditto for petrol/diesel buyers. People forget the 1 lac extra they shell out for diesel hatchback within a few days, but ask them to buy petrol @Rs. 70 every 4-5 days combined with the strong urge to shut down the AC in traffic jams on hot a sweaty summer every day, you have a sore owner in your hands. I know a colleague of mine with a sporty petrol sedan who always smiles wryly when he remarks that his fuel gauge needle is often competing with the speedo needle, albeit with same speed in OPPOSITE direction.

I have been driving diesel cars for nearly 7 years now, and the glass window handles of my previous car nearly got jammned as they has never been winded down. Thats right baby, non-stop AC for 85K clicks! Petrol cars are obviously more sophisticated & attractive purely from the drivers point of view. But again someone wise also said - there are two types of women in a man's life, girlfriend and wife. A man may like to hang around with his glamourous girlfriend, but at the end of the day he always prefers to go home to his dependable wife.

Regarding taxation policies, no doubt a strong lobby of manufacturers with predominantly diesel product porfolios (no maruti or hyundai hand here) and having strong affinity to current ruling party have thrown a spanner in the goverment's plans to heavily tax diesel passenger cars. Seriously what is a 2% excise hike in both petrol & diesel supposed to achieve. Its plainly an simply a face-saving gesture. The basis purpose of diesel subsidy has been taken out of the collective focus purely for short term gains. Yes, Goa has proved that friendly taxation policies can indeed be followed to aid the common man if the goverment has the will to do it.

From the environmental viewpoint, apart from particulate matter, diesel is actually a very clean fuel. The carbon-monoxide emissions of a diesel engine is far lower than an equivalent petrol mill. Being thermally more efficient and having a higher calorific value fuel, high mileage diesel vehicles will put lesser burden on earth's petroleum resources in the long run. BUT, and a big but, the government definately needs to come down on the old TATA 1210s dotting our highways. Old & ill maintained commercial vehicles are the main hell angels of diesel, with their smoke sprewing & fuel guzzling manners. They even play a major role in maligning the poor multijets & TDIs.

Sad but true, unless the goverment shows some strong willpower & some brains, petrol will slowly get relegated to being a fuel used in two wheelers & entry level cars.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 13:32   #39
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

I am really worried about the current state of affairs.

a) The price difference between Diesel and Petrol is hurting exchequer.
b) Increasing Diesel price is not possible as it will trigger spiraling inflation.
c) RBI will strengthen its stance if the inflation get out of control, causing less money in the hands of common people and corporate.
d)Though irrational, I too would agree that Its the daily pinch that hurts more than the upfront 1L extra and more people will move to Diesel (provided they still have the jobs to pay for it).

Where would it all end ?

1) Differential pricing will be difficult to implement and would encourage black marketeers.
2) In the short term, Is it possible for Govt to inversely link the tax levied on the petroleum products to crude price ?
The mechanism can be designed in such a way that Govt will receive the amount that they planned for in the budget, but will not make any windfall gain when the crude price soars.

Its all a pipe dream. For anything to happen, our petty politicians should forego regional/ religion bias and start working as a collective whole.

It is our failure that they represent us.
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Old 25th April 2012, 11:43   #40
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

The Diesel are still expensive to maintain no matter how popular they are getting . If you look at it at on long term basis. If you do your math after two years the expense on both petrol and diesel is pretty close . Personally I still prefer Petrol . They don't give you any issues , its easy to maintain , drive is smoother than the diesel , less vibration and no cabin noise .

BTW the pic posted is the assembly line of Ford Duratec engine (Petrol ) plant .
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Old 25th April 2012, 15:39   #41
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Personally I still prefer Petrol . They don't give you any issues , its easy to maintain , drive is smoother than the diesel , less vibration and no cabin noise .
Take any of the modern diesel cars available in the market one will struggle to point out how they are supposedly more difficult to maintain or not as nice to drive as a petrol powered equivalent.

This is especially true in smaller cars where the small petrol engines tuned for efficiency have been wheezy and more adequate than entertaining!! On the other hand the diesel alternatives with their excellent lower down torque gives you the grunt similar to a bigger engine.

At the end of the day its upto personal taste, but diesels being problematic, unrefined and slow are simply a very old school of thought!!
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Old 25th April 2012, 16:09   #42
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Take any of the modern diesel cars available in the market one will struggle to point out how they are supposedly more difficult to maintain or not as nice to drive as a petrol powered equivalent.

This is especially true in smaller cars where the small petrol engines tuned for efficiency have been wheezy and more adequate than entertaining!! On the other hand the diesel alternatives with their excellent lower down torque gives you the grunt similar to a bigger engine.

At the end of the day its upto personal taste, but diesels being problematic, unrefined and slow are simply a very old school of thought!!
The gap has reduced, but diesel engines still have a long way to go before than can catch up. Compare any similar spec'ed diesel and petrol cars and compare the noise they make. The amount of diesel clatter that is even audible in the cabin.

Torque at low rpms in diesel engines are too good, but you get that only after a huge turbo lag. I have not been able to figure out yet, how people cope with turbo lag. Its so bad in most popular diesel cars that I go mad when I try to accelerate and the engine proceeds slowly. And when you are about to give up, there is that sudden surge and the engine becomes so loud that I automatically retracts my leg.

And maybe its only me, but the smell of burnt diesel dives me nausea.

Haveing said all the above, my next car might be a diesel car after all, unless the govt decides to increase diesel prices or decrease petrol prices. I am fed up paying for diesel subsidies.
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Old 25th April 2012, 16:34   #43
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

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Take any of the modern diesel cars available in the market one will struggle to point out how they are supposedly more difficult to maintain or not as nice to drive as a petrol powered equivalent.
Agree. They are much better than what they used to be but maintenance cost is still higher than the petrols(understandably).
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This is especially true in smaller cars where the small petrol engines tuned for efficiency have been wheezy and more adequate than entertaining!! On the other hand the diesel alternatives with their excellent lower down torque gives you the grunt similar to a bigger engine.
I'm afraid that's not true. Compare the Beat diesel with the Alto K10. Both 3 pot engines. Low end torque is what you need in cities; not on highways. Even in cities the turbo lag can cause problems like civic-sense pointed out.

When it comes to top speed and performance, it's always petrol. You can keep revving it as long as you want. Install a turbocharger and it will even more fun... Reminds me of cars like the Cayenne turbo(I wont call it an SUV).

Practicality is the issue here. Diesel seems to be winning that battle.

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post

And maybe its only me, but the smell of burnt diesel dives me nausea.
+1
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Old 25th April 2012, 22:12   #44
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

I am not sure how informed are people in the Government -- who formulate India's fuel policy. Seems like there is no vision and the approaches are very short-sighted!!

If you take petrol and diesel sales in India, it can be easily understood that the Government is shooting it's own feet by subsidizing diesel and looting on petrol. By hiking petrol prices repeatedly, Government is all set to make petrol cars disappear from Indian roads. Only bikers will buy petrol thereafter. That will render the looting on petrol grossly ineffective because no serious money will come from the scant petrol sale but Govt still will have to subsidize diesel.

I don't think there is anything like a free lunch. See http://www.deccanherald.com/content/...-imminent.html. Many companies are investing a lot of money on diesel engines as of now. Poor guys!! They may not have seen vacillating governments like ours. Just see the example of sunrise telecom sector and you may get what I am saying.

Last edited by B103 : 25th April 2012 at 22:21.
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Old 26th April 2012, 12:11   #45
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Default Re: Car Makers to ramp up diesel engine production in India

Hello,

Yesterday, we all heard a junior minister stating that Government has "In-Principle" agreed to decontrol Diesel Prices.

The debate on whether this will happen or not is already live on many forums & I am not getting to it here. Thouogh in my opinion this will not happen soon (till 2014).

Car Manufacturers are ramping up Diesel facilities at lightening fast pace because suddenly most new Car buyers are considering Diesel Cars as one of the options. Also we saw that in March 2012 50% of passengers Cars sold were Diesel Cars.

Let us imagine a situation that over a period of next 2 / 3 years Government manages to decontrol Diesel Prices & Petrol & Diesel Prices are now almost same. What will happen then?

Will the Cars buyers choice once again move to Petrol Cars?
Will Diesel Car Sales (in small Car segment) come down drastically?
What would this mean for Diesel Cars Owners (who have bought Diesel cars recently & have not recovered the additional cost paid)?
What would this mean for Car manufacturers who have invested in Diesel Facilities in last 2 / 3 years?

The answers to above question are not available currently, but are worth pondering upon.

Thanks,

Last edited by Jignesh : 26th April 2012 at 12:13. Reason: Spelling mistake
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