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Old 31st May 2012, 11:56   #61
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

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Originally Posted by Born 2 Be Wild View Post
Exactly my point the initial post has a lot of data that is highly exxagerated. But one misleading post and everyone would pick up pitchforks
Hello Born 2 be Wild,

Can you please throw some light on Premium Fuels?

Is it really true that Petrol Pump mixes the additives to Normal Fuel & sell it as Premium Fuel?

If the above statement is true, then do Petrol Pump Owners really mix good additives? OR to put it in other words is the Premium Fuel really worth buying?

Thanks,
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Old 31st May 2012, 11:57   #62
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
It's a perfect analogy. We are not talking about quality at all here (am sure THAT will open up another can opf worms!) Giving a customer a bilaang less than he pays for is equivalent to filling in 22 ml short of a litre every time.
I wasn't talking of quality either, just a way how a textile retailer can cheat you to maintain or increase his margins. Selling a "defective" product (one bilaang short) isn't what a textile retailer can do undetected.

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
It's cheating, pure and simple. I wonder how anyone can rationalise it as passing on an injustice The fact that it isn't exclusive to these folks does not absolve them of the crime.
I'm not trying to absolve anyone of any crime. But, the reactions in this thread sound as if everyone thinks petrol pump owners are the only ones making money by cheating customers. As if this is the only industry where end customers are made to pay in one way or another for all the costs involved. That's certainly not true. So why treat only petrol pump owners as villains?
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Old 31st May 2012, 12:02   #63
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I'm not trying to absolve anyone of any crime. But, the reactions in this thread sound as if everyone thinks petrol pump owners are the only ones making money by cheating customers. As if this is the only industry where end customers are made to pay in one way or another for all the costs involved. That's certainly not true. So why treat only petrol pump owners as villains?
Perhaps because this thread is about how petrol pumps operate. If there is another thread about other businesses, we could understand how those work and then pronounce our valuable but totally useless judgements!

I still maintain that their theft/ fraud is not justified just because other people are also theiving thugs.

And as an auto forum, we should be only educating members and other readers of how cheating is being done at auto related places. A petrol pump is a basic place for any auto owner, hence this thread too. I presume?
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Old 31st May 2012, 12:13   #64
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

If I tend to think from another angle, my car is now 2.25% [(1-1000/978)%] more efficient.

Anyways, still think that its not correct to pass on the cost due to evaporation to unsuspecting customers. And building on that even if a petrol pump owner gives us only 22 ml less against someone who gives 90-100ml less (welll I have had such an experience to my trip to nasik), I would still consider both cheating their customers equally. I think its better to have a standard add on to the petrol price than having loss of trust till the time a solution to reduce such losses is arrived at, at a broader level.
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Old 31st May 2012, 12:15   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jignesh

Hello Born 2 be Wild,

Can you please throw some light on Premium Fuels?

Is it really true that Petrol Pump mixes the additives to Normal Fuel & sell it as Premium Fuel?

If the above statement is true, then do Petrol Pump Owners really mix good additives? OR to put it in other words is the Premium Fuel really worth buying?

Thanks,
Well sir its a fact that no and i repeat NO dealer mixes and makes his own recipies for premium fuels. Premium fuels are only supplied from the depots and out of all premium fuels present as on date the best would be Bpcl speed not because of the additive used but because of the mixin process iocl and hpcl resort to manual adding of additives by hand at their depots whereas bpcl has an automated machine to dispense the additive accurately also their premium fuel tanks are interconnected in the depot which enables proper mixing of additive and fuel.

If any dealer does practice mixing additives and making his own brand of premium fuel he simply cant do so without collusion of the omc officials which is very very rare theese days .
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Old 31st May 2012, 12:41   #66
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

This is so much of news to me.
If its all true then my car actually rocks the mileage.
Presently I get 8-9 km/l in chennai bumper to bumper traffic. (Ridiculous mileage for a Santro)
Say no traffic the mileage increases on highway to 13km/l on highway with A/C and good speeds.
Driving on average speed with A/C 15km/L
Without A/C 17km/l (considering chennai heat)


The correction of petrol loss at each liter fill of 22ml is an average, considering I live in chennai it should be good 75ml.

So I actually get a good mileage of almost 18km/l which is exactly how much I used to get 11years back in Bangalore
For all this time I thought my car is slowly deteriorating in its performance, now its seems that our country is what is deteriorating in its policies.

Sad to know we are cheated more than we already thought we knew.

Anyways that's the system in this country. Born here, live here and most importantly STRUGGLE here for you get nothing constructive.
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Old 31st May 2012, 13:20   #67
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

I remember long back when one of my close friend's dad told me that he had a close friend who use to work for some dairy. There they used to keep the setting of the Automated Milk Dispensers to 495ml (or 497 IIRC) for 500ml and so on, this was done to compensate for wastage due to spillages, leakages, etc. It was known from top-mgmt to lower ones in that organisation, and they were confident that this can never be caught by anyone as the quantity is very minute.
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Old 31st May 2012, 14:51   #68
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

I have my doubts that any pump owner will give less fuel. That's a surefire way of getting caught and be punished. When the meter of the filling station says 1000 ml, it has to be 1000 ml. Anything less will be an invitation to trouble.
The pump owners probably adopt other means to cover up losses! Just my view, with absolutely no idea about the actual facts.
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Old 31st May 2012, 15:08   #69
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

Quite an insightful thread, but I must admit some of the data presented is ages old and seems to highlight tactics used by transporters / dealers earlier. In current scenario, things are little different and as follows:

Transportation Losses: Unlike sometime back, most transporters and depots have made GPS tracking mandatory. Additionally, tampering of truck bodies and tanks is also strictly monitored sometimes with the help of external private agencies. Failure to comply results in cancellation of transport license.

Tank Calibration: Increasingly fuel bunks across the country are being equipped with automation whereby tank capacity, fuel dispensing, etc are monitored by highly advanced softwares. One can even check the amount of fuel dispensed on particular bunk at a particular time if the station is automated. Such pumps will have an automated billing machines on bunks. Insist on bill through these machines only.

Calibration Adjustment: It is not 25 ml per 1000ml. It is not possible. As mentioned earlier in posts too, it is somewhere around 25ml per 5000ml and consistent fuel short supply over 15ml per 5000ml is noted in audit reports. IMHO, no dealer generally has calibration adjustment of over +- 10 ml per 5000ml or about 0.2%. While you may argue that a full 100% is your statutory right, and believe me it is, but it is difficult for anyone to expect such compliance in any industry. Have you ever measured the amount of cola in your 500ml bottle ? This is an evaporative liquid and some losses do occur and 0.2-0.3% is acceptable if not fully justified.

Evaporation Loss: Evaporation Losses are also not as described.100Ltr on a 12KL vehicle is unbelievable and bloated even for Petrol. At our bunks, the maximum we have encountered in 20KL load is 67Ltr where also our investigation led to foul play by driver. On an average, we have 14 - 20Ltr of loss in petrol and negligible losses in Diesel.

Unscrupulous Activity at Terminal: Once again, figures are not false but highly bloated. There are activities done by company officials which are illegal nut there is alimitation to the extent such things can be executed these days. People will remember fire incident at Jaipur terminal few years back and the same was also 'allegedly' related to such activities gone wrong. But, here again, these cases are not as regular or high as made out to be.

I am sure that we can make above mentioned changes to analysis of petrol pumps.

Also, People should find automated pumps near your locations and proactively support them so that oil companies are pressured into making all pumps automatic as fast as possible. This will also ensure better fuel and full fuel.

Finally, you still have to keep an eye out for crooked staff who can whip you off your hard earned money much faster than even bunk owner. Precaution is bliss.
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Old 31st May 2012, 15:18   #70
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhilesh51 View Post
Quite an insightful thread, but I must admit some of the data presented is ages old and seems to highlight tactics used by transporters / dealers earlier. In current scenario, things are little different and as follows:
Interesting inputs; always good to have varied inputs so we get an overall idea. Also nice to know we hear it directly from people who own/ operate these pumps. A perspective which we never get otherwise.

I have a question for your signature. "I hooked up my accelerator pedal in my car to my brake lights. I hit the gas, people behind me stop, and I'm gone"
What happens when you apply the brakes?!

Last edited by selfdrive : 31st May 2012 at 15:20. Reason: Edited font tags
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Old 31st May 2012, 16:43   #71
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhilesh51
People should find automated pumps near your locations and proactively support them so that oil companies are pressured into making all pumps automatic as fast as possible. This will also ensure better fuel and full fuel.
Did not understand what you meant by "automated pumps" ? Is this the unmanned pumps we see in the US, where the customer himself operates the dispenser and fills fuel ? Do we already have this in India ? If so, I am sure majority of the people would be all for it. Or did you mean the latest hitech dispensers which are almost tamper-proof and which can be seen in newer pumps and the ones being renovated ?
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Old 31st May 2012, 17:14   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Did not understand what you meant by "automated pumps" ? Is this the unmanned pumps we see in the US, where the customer himself operates the dispenser and fills fuel ? Do we already have this in India ? If so, I am sure majority of the people would be all for it. Or did you mean the latest hitech dispensers which are almost tamper-proof and which can be seen in newer pumps and the ones being renovated ?
By automated pumps he meant pumps that are automated and have digital probes in their tanks and all the nozzles on the dispensers are connected to a system in the office wherby pump owner or manager can monitor each and every thing from stock in the tanks to sale outside every tranaction is recorded.

Sadly our country cant and i think would never have self service pumps.

Also most machines nowadays are tamper proof
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Old 31st May 2012, 17:50   #73
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

@ aplang1 - very well written post, though like others here, i too had some doubts about a point or two that were raised :

Quote:
Originally Posted by aplang1 View Post
We are all aware that fuel is a volatile product. Slightest increase in ambient temperatures will cause it to evaporate.
The ambient temperature also affects the density of the fuel. In other words, the volume (liters) will increase as it gets hotter, and decrease as it gets cooler.

Its a minor amount (0.069 % per degree Fahrenheit).

However, though there is no correction for this change between Petrol bunk and end customer, the correction is factored in between Petrol bunk and Fuel Company to account for variations in product, depending on the temperature. (Correct me if i'm wrong).


Quote:
Originally Posted by aplang1 View Post
• Temperatures in summers range from 35 to 50 degrees in various parts of the country. The fuel is put in the tankers and these tankers travel a minimum of 50kms under the hot sun leading to another 50 or so litres getting evaporated.

...

• Now the product is in the underground tank and extreme temperatures outside cause further evaporation. Another 100 litres lost over one operating cycle.

I too think you've also over-estimated evaporation, as fuel really cannot evaporate when it is in a sealed tanker or container, regardless of the ambient temperature! (Correct me if i'm wrong once again).


@ akhilesh51 - excellent post.

Thanks,
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 31st May 2012 at 17:53.
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Old 31st May 2012, 20:32   #74
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

The oil companies are losing money to the tune of some crores each day, our beloved govt is losing money because of subsidies and various other sundries (as per the TV news / papers). I guess it was only natural to expect that the next to cry themselves hoarse would be the pump waalas.

It seems everyone in the oil business is only losing money. Wonder why people still queue up to be a part of this business.

PS - the above statement does not take away the honesty that the OP has showcased here. Well done sir and thanks for sharing.
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Old 31st May 2012, 21:30   #75
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Default Re: The Petrol Pump Story - How Petrol Pumps Operate

OT
I read on this thread that we all are concerned with cheating related to automobiles only.
Aren't all the 2, 3 & 4 (and more) wheeler manufacturers report inflated engine capacities. In some cases 1248 cc as 1.3 L. Though it can't be termed as cheating it is misrepresentation of facts and which can be 'caught' by going through the brochure before buying the vehicle, but I doubt majority of the people are aware of that.
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