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Old 4th April 2014, 15:07   #136
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Default Re: Petrol or Diesel?

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
So are we realistically saying that an alto K10 is not going to give me more than 12 kmpl in Bangalore traffic?

.
I get 14-15 kmpl in bangalore traffic with about 50% a/c - depends on how you drive it, it can dip to less than that (and does at times for me when my right foot falls asleep ) Mine is driven in moderate traffic (ranging from breezy stretches to some belly crawling)

On the highways I have consistently got 19-20 kmpl with 50% a/c usage.

Its as FE as a four wheeled vehicle can get, bear in mind that a petrol car gives optimal FE once the engine has had an opportunity to warm up, so very short drives will always kill FE. Very clogged traffic is another major bugbear for NA petrol engines, so factor that in as well
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Old 4th April 2014, 15:24   #137
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Default Re: Petrol or Diesel?

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
This car is for me only.

I am traveling close to 35 kms to work and back every day. I will conservatively add one 500 km trip per month. This takes it to a total running of 1500 km/month.

The car I get has to give me 15/litre of whatever fuel in the city. Which cars give this?
Given your requirements you should just go for a Petrol car. If you need a good mileage then you are better off with a Maruti car. Be it an Alto 800 or Wagon R ,you would be getting an average mileage of 14 - 15 in the busy city traffic. I recently test drove a Celerio AMT in Pune city and it was showing an average of 15.1 KMpL.

Unless you make frequent highway drives, a diesel car doesnt make sense.
One should realize that the fuel prices in the long run going to hover around 65- 70 INR for Diesel and 75-80-85 INR for petrol.

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
I am only keen on a used car. With the current market environment, good deals can be had.

I think my monthly running will easily go over 1200 kms. Just week-end trips alone will do it. Will be quite stupid to buy a car and NOT use it because it's expensive to run.
Used cars always make financial sense, you would need to really spend time looking for a good one within your budget. In Bangalore you would not find it hard to get an Alto or a Wagon R Vxi ( 2010-11 ) in your budget.

If you can do a bit of compromise in your mileage expectation, then Nissan micra/ VW polo may also fit your bill. Ritz and Swift are other cars that you can consider checking out as they are bigger and safer compared to an alto.

Even if its 1200 -1500 km per month, considering the monthly increase in diesel price that is happening and that will continue for a couple of more months, a petrol car that can give decent mileage would still be a smarter choice.
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Old 4th April 2014, 16:16   #138
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Very interesting and informative, jessie007.

I personally prefer petrol vehicles. As you rightly pointed out above, initial investment and maintenance are usually lower.

As your average running is around 1200 km or more monthly, it's a tough call choosing between diesel's greater FE or petrol's lower initial investment But since you usually keep cars for a relatively short time, petrol seems to have the advantage IMO.

I think a new Nano or a used Spark could be alternate, offbeat choices. A friend of mine posted on his FB page that he was overtaken while driving his Scorpio doing 120 kmph by a Nano on Hyderabad's ORR (not that I condone speeding)
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Old 4th April 2014, 17:14   #139
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

I have been getting 16.5+ kmpl in city(80%)-highway(20%) mix in my wagon-R with 50% AC. Drive sedately and you can achieve 15 kmpl in Bangalore. Just look around for a 10-11 Wagon-R which is ideal for city runs.

Sorry to confuse you but please do factor a slightly better resale value for diesel car and the equation tilts further towards diesels.
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Old 4th April 2014, 18:20   #140
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Here's simpler way of calculating whether or not a diesel car makes sense over a petrol version. First, we have to get rid of all the variables in the equation and consider only the constants. If that's not possible, we need to derive constants out of the variables.

Here are the assumptions I am making:
a1. We are comparing the same car but with petrol and diesel engines.
a2. You can afford the more expensive diesel version, either by cash or loan.
a3. Diesel and petrol variants cost about same towards maintenance (not including fuel)
a4. You are not concerned about the difference in the refinements, silence etc.

And here are the so-called constants:
b1. Diesel cars are more expensive than petrol cars (let's say delta or 'D')
b2. Diesel cars give more kilometers per litre of fuel than petrol ones.
b3. Diesel will not cost more than petrol per litre. (agree, no guarantee)
b4. Diesel cars, when sold, will get you more money than petrol cars.
b5. As per b2 & b3, Fuel for diesel cars costs lesser per KM.

Here are some possible theories/equations. For illustration, I am taking the case of Fiat Linea MJD vs TJet, both Emotion variant. The 'd' will be approx 81,000 on OTR.

The easiest of the equations - Theory 1:

When you eventually sell the car, you will more or less reover the delta. In the current situtation, the delta might not even suffer the depreciation.
So, disregarding the delta from the equation, diesel cars will always cost lesser than petrol versions.

As of today, with my car (Linea Diesel), for every KM I drive I will be saving 2.13 Rs per kilometer over a petrol car.

But who knows how long the diesel will be so much cheaper. So, let's say both cost same per liter (77 Rs). Even then, in a car like Linea, you get 4 to 5 more KM per every liter.

So, even in the worst case scenario, you will be saving around 1.28 Rs per KM.

Theory 2:

You have taken a loan or might have invested the delta somewhere if you went for petrol car and you want to take that into account.
But let's still assume the delta as principal would still be recovered by the selling the car. What is now left is the following simple comparison:

The interest on 'D' (Vs) The money you save on fuel (2.13Rs per kilometer)

With Linea Emotion as example, the delta would 81,000 approx. At 11% compound interest, but averaged to monthly, you would get around 850 Rs. Note, technically this doesn't happen with compound interest. But even that won't spoil our equations. So, we will rewrite the equation as:

850 Rs per month (for petrol) (Vs) KM driven every month x 2.13 Rs (for diesel)

Going back to the worst case scenario again, where petrol and diesel will cost same), let's rewrite the equation as:

850 Rs per month (for petrol) (Vs) KMs driven every month x 1.28 Rs

In other words, per month break-even point will be 665 KM.


Theory 3:

You don't intend to sell the car at all; you just want to use it till it rots? Then the equation becomes bit favorable to the petrol car. Not always, though.

For the sake of simplicity, let's say you took the car on loan at 12% over 60 months. The monthly EMI for the 'D' will be 1800. So, going back to the equation:

As per today's price:
1800 Rs per month (for petrol) Vs KMs driven every month x 2.13 Rs (for diesel)

Per month break-even point will be 845 KM.

If and when petrol and diesel cost same per liter:
1800 Rs per month (for petrol) Vs KMs driven every month x 1.28 Rs (for diesel)

Per month break-even point will be 1406 KM.
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Old 5th April 2014, 10:42   #141
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

My own judgement is that after all the sturm und drang the price differential should settle down to about Rs.8 (6-10range). Taxation on Diesel fuel is likely to be lower for the foreseeable future.
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Old 7th April 2014, 10:18   #142
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by prakash_ajp View Post
Here's simpler way of calculating whether or not a diesel car makes sense over a petrol version.
So what you're saying is - average driving of 1000 kms a month warrants a diesel car in the current scenario?
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Old 7th April 2014, 10:32   #143
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
So what you're saying is - average driving of 1000 kms a month warrants a diesel car in the current scenario?
Yes, less than that in fact. But would be lot lesser than if you plan to sell the car in a foreseeable future.
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Old 7th April 2014, 12:49   #144
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Two doubts .
1)Maintenance cost is same for both petrol and diesel cars? My friend have a Swift VDi and he is paying at least 5000 per visit to workshop (ie at least 5000 Km interval)
2)Mileage is more for diesel cars ? How much? The same swift is providing 17 Kmpl in city and 20 on highways. My Petrol one is giving 15Kmpl in cities and 20Kmpl on highways.

I feel maintenance cost will be less for petrol vehicles like Wagon R and Alto.
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Old 7th April 2014, 13:18   #145
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by commonman View Post
1)Maintenance cost is same for both petrol and diesel cars? My friend have a Swift VDi and he is paying at least 5000 per visit to workshop (ie at least 5000 Km interval)
Maintenance costs is slightly higher for a diesel powered car as compared to petrol one. The service interval recommended by manufacturers is 10000 kms and not 5000 kms. The higher maintenence costs would even out if the car has a good amount of running per month.

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Originally Posted by commonman View Post
2)Mileage is more for diesel cars ? How much? The same swift is providing 17 Kmpl in city and 20 on highways. My Petrol one is giving 15Kmpl in cities and 20Kmpl on highways.
Diesel engines are better to drive around thanks to the hough torque at lower RPM's (petrol engines are not slouch). The have a higher fuel efficiency range when compared to a petrol engine.

There could be a 2-3 kmpl difference in petrol vs diesel cars.

I drive 3400-3500 kms a month, with an average fuel efficiency of 21.5 - 22.4 kmpl. Servicing bills range between 3.5 - 5K which again depends on the engine oil etc used.

Anurag.
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Old 7th April 2014, 14:57   #146
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by commonman View Post
Two doubts .
1)Maintenance cost is same for both petrol and diesel cars? My friend have a Swift VDi and he is paying at least 5000 per visit to workshop (ie at least 5000 Km interval)
Agreed this could vary, but in the example I took, I didn't find much difference between a TJet Linea and MJD (from some of the ownership threads)

Quote:
Originally Posted by commonman View Post
2)Mileage is more for diesel cars ? How much? The same swift is providing 17 Kmpl in city and 20 on highways. My Petrol one is giving 15Kmpl in cities and 20Kmpl on highways.
It's not a fair comparison. See, you bring in too many variables with that. We know how varying fuel consumptions are even between cars of the same model with the same engine. You have to take something that is more reliable if not a constant. I considered the ARAI figures in my examples. Here are the figures for the cars we are taking about:

TJet 15.7 : 20.4 MJD (diff 4.7)
VVT 18.6 : 22.9 Swift DDiS (diff 4.3)
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Old 7th April 2014, 17:51   #147
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by prakash_ajp View Post
Yes, less than that in fact. But would be lot lesser than if you plan to sell the car in a foreseeable future.
I'm wondering though if I plan to sell the car again within a year. Am just wary of tying up a larger capital amount into a depreciating asset which I don't intend to keep for long. Doesn't it then make sense to invest low - for something which is basically a filler car?

I'm sorry - these are all variables I'm throwing at you
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Old 7th April 2014, 18:05   #148
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
I'm wondering though if I plan to sell the car again within a year. Am just wary of tying up a larger capital amount into a depreciating asset which I don't intend to keep for long. Doesn't it then make sense to invest low - for something which is basically a filler car?

I'm sorry - these are all variables I'm throwing at you
I know, the possibilities are endless. But theoretically speaking, we can come up with a number (aka break-even point in my post) for two same model car with different engine. But then there are so many other things that might influence the outcome. For e.g.:

1. The same person might end up driving the TJet in a more 'spirited' way than he would a diesel car.
2. When the cost per km is lesser, one is encouraged to use the car much more.

These things depends on the person and just can't be put into a calculation. What this means is, there is more to the decision making process than sheer numbers and money.
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Old 7th April 2014, 18:45   #149
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
I'm wondering though if I plan to sell the car again within a year. Am just wary of tying up a larger capital amount into a depreciating asset which I don't intend to keep for long. Doesn't it then make sense to invest low - for something which is basically a filler car?
If you are going to sell it in a short while, I feel diesel might be a better option considering the current sentiments of an average buyer is still heavily tilted towards diesel. This would mean that you could find a lesser number of potential buyers when you are trying to sell a petrol variant compared to a diesel. This would indirectly influence your selling price - if you don't get a buyer who is interested in your car and willing to pay the market rate, you will be forced to sell it at a lower price if you cannot afford the luxury of waiting till you get a good buyer. Of course, you cannot wait too long as the car is still depreciating while you wait and the "reasonable price" is coming down. This issue happens more in petrol cars than in diesel cars because of the lesser number of interested parties when you put your car up for sale.

With diesel, especially if it is a low run car you are likely to see many more interested buyers and you can afford not to come down from a reasonable market price. This is just like the extra discounts that the companies have to offer for petrol cars when compared to their diesel counterparts. If you don't calculate this extra amount in your calculations, you might end up taking the wrong decision if you sell it soon enough.

This is especially true if you are going to sell the car within a short while since you have a car with one more registered owner to the list and this would again drive down the cost in case of bargaining. If you keep the car long enough, most other samples available in the market would also be in a similar situation and the market price would be inclusive of the extra owner.
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Old 7th April 2014, 20:20   #150
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by commonman View Post
Maintenance cost is same for both petrol and diesel cars? My friend have a Swift VDi and he is paying at least 5000 per visit to workshop (ie at least 5000 Km interval)
Either your friend is not sharing the right information with you or his M.A.S.S is taking him for a ride every 5k interval

What does one get changed every 5k kms? Oil and Oil filter max! That doesn't even add up to 2000/-

Having driven ~65k kms in my Swift Ldi I can tell you that ~5000/- is what I've spent at every 20k interval - which means changing all fluids (gear oil, engine oil, coolant), oil filter, fuel (or diesel) filter and air filter mainly.

I get the engine oil and oil filter changed at every 5k interval, this plus the air filter every 10k interval and rest of the stuff every 20k interval.

And I must tell you that getting a diesel swift serviced is definitely more expensive than a petrol one because we had both of them in our house till 6 months back. And this I'm talking about strictly from manufacturer recommended interval perspective.
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