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Old 27th October 2015, 10:39   #316
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Article on diesel emissions:
http://www.rediff.com/business/repor...l/20151026.htm
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Old 27th October 2015, 13:41   #317
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Folks, I am in a dilemma

I had booked a Hyundai Creta (for the second time) scheduled to be delivered early next year. While the Creta ticked most boxes (most importantly a DIESEL A/T), but I have consistently been worried about the lack of features in a 16L Car (Speed sensing door lock, Leather(ite) seats etc.)

This car is primarily to replace my SX4 (which I intend to retain)

Now the dilemma; I am thinking of going for a Baleno instead of the Creta as it is appealing more to both the head and the heart

Sadly, with the A/T being available only in the Petrol version, I might have to compromise on the Fuel expenses. The average daily running of the vehicle is 50-60 kms

With an ownership horizon of 2-3 years and an annual running of around 15000kms, how much of a difference will it make?

It's finally a choice between three things:

- Purchase the Petrol CVT Baleno
- Purchase the Top end Diesel and compromise on the convenience of the A/T
- Stick to the Creta purchase and miss out on multiple features and also spend more?
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Old 27th October 2015, 13:58   #318
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_2025 View Post
Folks, I am in a dilemma

I had booked a Hyundai Creta (for the second time) scheduled to be delivered early next year. While the Creta ticked most boxes (most importantly a DIESEL A/T), but I have consistently been worried about the lack of features in a 16L Car (Speed sensing door lock, Leather(ite) seats etc.)

This car is primarily to replace my SX4 (which I intend to retain)

Now the dilemma; I am thinking of going for a Baleno instead of the Creta as it is appealing more to both the head and the heart

Sadly, with the A/T being available only in the Petrol version, I might have to compromise on the Fuel expenses. The average daily running of the vehicle is 50-60 kms

With an ownership horizon of 2-3 years and an annual running of around 15000kms, how much of a difference will it make?

It's finally a choice between three things:

- Purchase the Petrol CVT Baleno
- Purchase the Top end Diesel and compromise on the convenience of the A/T
- Stick to the Creta purchase and miss out on multiple features and also spend more?
Welcome to the competition
For me Baleno CVT anytime. It's less than half the price and I am sure you will be able to save at most 50k on fuel expenses in 3 years. Although the Baleno CVT on higher trims would have been icing on the cake. The petrol CVT should fetch you anything around 11-12 kmpl while the creta A/T should give 12-13 kmpl in city conditions.

Go for Creta if you only need suv looks and powerful engine as 1.2 k-series in no match to the monster.
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Old 27th October 2015, 14:09   #319
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_2025 View Post

Folks, I am in a dilemma

- Purchase the Petrol CVT Baleno
- Purchase the Top end Diesel and compromise on the convenience of the A/T
- Stick to the Creta purchase and miss out on multiple features and also spend more?
Hey amit_2025 the choice of car & fuel solely depends on you and your 'Feel Good Factor' at the end of the day.

Here's how I see:

- Baleno is no replacement/substitute for Creta. I understand you are not comparing these 2, but have you thought about S-cross 1.3 MJD at all? This may just be the best of both Creta & Baleno at an almost midpoint price.

- I recently drove the 1.6 MJD S-cross and trust me when I say this, Suzuki have really set the bar with loads of safety kits as standard on this machine. The 1.3MJD low/mid variant must be perfect.

- With a daily running of >50kms, Diesel will prove way too easy on your pocket, irrespective of what the fuel rates end up at.

- Considering you are planning to keep your car for <4yrs, a Diesel Maruti car will always have a better resale than a Petrol one.

- I completely understand the AT factor as a primary requirement, but if this is a mandate, you may also explore options such as Vento TDI DSG/Verna AT CRDI, if you have not thought about these already.


P.S -Maruti Baleno has been priced brilliantly and is gunning towards being the most VFM car in its class, but surely its not a comparison for Creta. S-cross must be a better alternative.

Last edited by Vik0728 : 27th October 2015 at 14:13.
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Old 27th October 2015, 14:28   #320
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_2025 View Post

This car is primarily to replace my SX4 (which I intend to retain)

Now the dilemma; I am thinking of going for a Baleno instead of the Creta as it is appealing more to both the head and the heart

Sadly, with the A/T being available only in the Petrol version, I might have to compromise on the Fuel expenses. The average daily running of the vehicle is 50-60 kms

With an ownership horizon of 2-3 years and an annual running of around 15000kms, how much of a difference will it make?

It's finally a choice between three things:

- Purchase the Petrol CVT Baleno
- Purchase the Top end Diesel and compromise on the convenience of the A/T
- Stick to the Creta purchase and miss out on multiple features and also spend more?
Creta to replace SX4 seems fine, but Baleno instead of Creta?
This dilemma of yours seems to be triggered by the release of a new toy in the market!
If you need the top variant with all latest features, there is little one can do, if the primary criteria is AT. Reason, manufacturers are shying away from giving top spec ATs.
So, first thing, if you need top spec - go for MT. However, ATs are given such that most creature comforts are provided, and only the latest features such as touch screen, GPS navigation, auto headlamps, rain sensing wipers, leathers, alloy wheels, projectors are missing, and out of these, some can be added after market.
If your concern also seems to be a bit about economy, I am putting the below calculation for you:

Creta AT would cost about 16L to you, while the Creta MT top variant would also cost in the same range.
However Baleno Petrol AT would come at about 8.5L OTR.

Baleno AT & Creta AT would give you similar mileage figures, though different fuels, because of the bigger size and larger engine of Creta.
So assuming you spend 5L petrol per day (due to 60 km per day), and the difference between petrol & diesel as Rs.15, extra spending per day = 5*15 = Rs. 75, which means about 25K - 30K per year.
Which means, you have to keep the Creta for more than 20 years to break even! Creta is absolutely not a right choice, by fuel economy, since you are comparing with a lower segment car that costs too low.

My suggestion: Since you like to keep the SX4, and if you do not really want a bigger car such as Creta, better go for Baleno, which saves some bucks.
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Old 27th October 2015, 14:50   #321
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post

- With a daily running of >50kms, Diesel will prove way too easy on your pocket, irrespective of what the fuel rates end up at.
To recover a 1 lakh rupee premium paid for a diesel compared to petrol model, the buyer needs to run the car 100,000 kms in 3 yrs. It translates to more than 90 km per day, driving 7 days a week. If the price gap between petrol and diesel reduces, you need to drive even more.
Also, more you drive, lower is the resale value.
Prices of petrol and diesel are guaranteed to continue converging since the diesel subsidy is being phased out.
For purely fuel economy reasons, diesels no longer make sense for majority of buyers, and thus the market is shifting strongly towards petrol.

(For the calculations, I used the excel sheet shared in the first page of this thread, and entered fuel prices for Bangalore: petrol=65 and diesel=49)
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Old 27th October 2015, 15:19   #322
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by hybridpetrol View Post
Creta to replace SX4 seems fine, but Baleno instead of Creta?
This dilemma of yours seems to be triggered by the release of a new toy in the market!
You are correct, Partially Though :-)

The Dilemma is for multiple reasons:

1) I have had a rather unpleasant experience with Hyundai and am truly going against the mind by opting for the Creta; The biggest reason being a Diesel Automatic. Have been constantly worried about the lack of features in a 16L Car
2) Until the Baleno, there was no car that was appealing both to the mind and the heart; It is big, spacious & definitely good looking
3) I might Probably get 80% of the Creta at 50% the Price

Within the Baleno, it's a choice between the CVT or the Alpha Petrol & Alpha Diesel
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Old 27th October 2015, 15:43   #323
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_2025 View Post
Within the Baleno, it's a choice between the CVT or the Alpha Petrol & Alpha Diesel
That's dilemma

With CVT here comes convenience of 2 pedals and smooth petrol engine which shouldn't feel sluggish keeping the kerb weight in mind. But, it's only available in delta which lacks quiet a lot of features against alpha. Moreover the price difference with diesel alpha will be around 1.3 lakhs.

But, the diesel mill is going to be fuel efficient at least by 40%. Even if it gives a realistic city mileage of 17kmpl, rough calculation says you will be able to save 50k per year minimum. So, it makes financial sense to go with diesel alpha.

But, the point is more than just financial benefits. The reason for avoiding creta will only justify to some extent if you go for CVT. You are not going to get the driving pleasure in Baleno compared to creta(power wise) and premiumness.

Having said that the delta is adequately loaded with features, the alpha trumps the creta in features department. But, you can't go wrong with any of the Baleno versions if price is a major factor.
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Old 27th October 2015, 15:55   #324
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by mustang_shelby View Post
Prices of petrol and diesel are guaranteed to continue converging since the diesel subsidy is being phased out.
For purely fuel economy reasons, diesels no longer make sense for majority of buyers, and thus the market is shifting strongly towards petrol.

(For the calculations, I used the excel sheet shared in the first page of this thread, and entered fuel prices for Bangalore: petrol=65 and diesel=49)
Diesel for transport is no longer subsidised. The price difference and higher petrol price is due to higher excise duty (Rs. 7.2) and higher VAT (Rs. 5-6). In fact, the oil companies are not making any underrecoveries on diesel since mid-September 2014.

Last edited by vasudeva : 27th October 2015 at 16:00.
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Old 27th October 2015, 16:09   #325
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
Nobody likes to read such articles. We will come up with all kind of vague theories to justify our diesel cars. 90% of members will support me if I propose a self imposed ban on fire crackers on Diwali (that happens once a year) but the same people will argue in favor of diesel.

I am stern believer that diesel cause more harm than petrol but even that may not keep me away from buying a diesel car in future (due to financial benefits I will get with my 80 km daily commute).
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Old 27th October 2015, 16:27   #326
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Just yesterday, The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) classified processed meat as a Group 1 carcinogen (carcinogenic to humans). This category is used when there is sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity in humans. In other words, there is convincing evidence that the agent causes cancer.

The IARC has also classified tobacco as a carcinogen in addition to other substances.

In 2012, the IARC had also classified diesel engine exhaust as carcinogenic to humans (Group 1), based on sufficient evidence that exposure is associated with an increased risk for lung cancer.
http://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/p...fs/pr213_E.pdf

In 1988, IARC classified diesel exhaust as probably carcinogenic to humans (Group 2A). This elevated diesel from group 2A (probably carcinogenic to humans).

Also read this:
http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/do...port_Final.pdf
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Old 27th October 2015, 17:12   #327
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Just yesterday, The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) classified processed meat as a Group 1 carcinogen (carcinogenic to humans).
All the more reason to buy yourself a Diesel car with a cabin air filter whose fuel efficiency will not drop as much as it would on a Petrol Powered car if driven with aircon on in bumper-to-bumper traffic. At least the fact that you are enjoying Diesel economy will not prompt you to turn off the aircon and roll down the window breathing the exhaust of the other Diesel cars/buses/trucks around you. Save yourself from cancer while you still can, govt. Is least interested anyways. These 'other vehicles' will keep on running on diesel as long as there is no clear stance taken by the government against them. And till that day dawns upon us, what fuel your car runs on for a couple of hours a day remains largely immaterial.

You or me not buying a Diesel car (when the economics clearly suggest otherwise) due to fear of air pollution is equivalent to not carrying your book in an open-book exam. It will be your loss all along while the others make merry.

And besides, we can always use Public Transport or (a Petrol Powered) bike if Diesel is so undesirable. Not only less diesel will be burnt(in the country), both these options will also help reduce both traffic on the roads and CO2 emissions.

I hope we can keep the topic economics related henceforth since that is what this thread was all about since the beginning. As far as discussing cancer is concerned, that discussion can continue under the "Shifting Gears" section where even I will get answers to why my Maamiji (maternal aunt) is suffering from the same, enduring chemo and radiation every fortnight even though she never had meat, never consumed tobacco, never drove a car or stayed in one for hours every day.

Coming back to topic:

@Amit_2025: You will end up saving ~15.5k/month in EMI if you opt for the Baleno CVT instead of the Creta. Even if the Baleno returns 10kmpl(ARAI FE suggests it would be substantially higher than that), fuel cost will be 10.5k/month.

Net savings/month: 5k + All the fuel spends on the Creta(~6.5k) + Cheaper maintenance + Cheaper insurance (Since the car itself costs much less)

You can use these savings + savings on downpayment to deck up the car as per your preference (Alloys, Android Auto / Apple Carplay enabled HU, Angel Eyes/DRLs etc.)

A 50km daily commute is not something that anyone would look forward to. I would want it to end as fast as it can everyday. A smaller + adequately powerful car will help you achieve that much better than a larger car like the Creta.

Last edited by antz.bin : 27th October 2015 at 17:17.
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Old 27th October 2015, 23:08   #328
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_2025 View Post
Folks, I am in a dilemma

I had booked a Hyundai Creta (for the second time) scheduled to be delivered early next year. While the Creta ticked most boxes (most importantly a DIESEL A/T), but I have consistently been worried about the lack of features in a 16L Car (Speed sensing door lock, Leather(ite) seats etc.)

This car is primarily to replace my SX4 (which I intend to retain)

Now the dilemma; I am thinking of going for a Baleno instead of the Creta as it is appealing more to both the head and the heart

Sadly, with the A/T being available only in the Petrol version, I might have to compromise on the Fuel expenses. The average daily running of the vehicle is 50-60 kms

With an ownership horizon of 2-3 years and an annual running of around 15000kms, how much of a difference will it make?

It's finally a choice between three things:

- Purchase the Petrol CVT Baleno
- Purchase the Top end Diesel and compromise on the convenience of the A/T
- Stick to the Creta purchase and miss out on multiple features and also spend more?
Well, if you are thinking of Baleno CVT, then you might as well look at Jazz CVT. Honda is tom-tomming much about their CVT which comes with a torque converter, too. Best of both worlds? I'm not sure how they carried out this "marriage" of two different types of ATs but if their full-blown ads are any indication, then they are onto something intersting. Alternatively, do also take a test spin of new Fiesta AT. It is 6-speed DCT and a good sprinter. Almost close to Polo TSI. If I were you, I would look at new Fiesta and Jazz ATs, in that order, rather than at Baleno. Maruti cars do not have good AT boxes. They have only two boxes powering their cars. A 4-speed AT which powered everything from A-Star to Vitara. And a lazy CVT in Kizashi.
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Old 27th October 2015, 23:22   #329
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Though we shouldn't have high hopes but just wait for Elite i20 A/T whose launch seems just around the corner.
Who knows the Hyundai pulls up a coup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Well, if you are thinking of Baleno CVT, then you might as well look at Jazz CVT.
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Old 28th October 2015, 09:57   #330
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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Alternatively, do also take a test spin of new Fiesta AT. It is 6-speed DCT
Fiesta? You mean Figo/Aspire. Right?
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