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Old 11th December 2015, 20:25   #346
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

I am not sure which cars you are considering but the only Petrol 7 seaters south of 50lac are the Ertiga, Mobilio & Enjoy.

Evalia, Lodgy, Innova, Scorpio, Xylo, Aria etc. etc. etc. are all Diesel only vehicles.

The biggest advantage of going for a Diesel apart from lower fuel costs is the extra Torque on offer which will be immensely helpful when driving with a full load of passengers, i.e. the actual reason why you will be opting for the 7 seater in the first place.

And as for the maintenance & resale bits, Innova(Diesel) has probably the lowest maintenance costs and highest resale across segments in India. Ertiga being the hit product that it is, resale shouldn't be an issue for either fuel. For Mobilio/Enjoy, I wouldn't be too optimistic considering the low sales for both and the upcoming BRV which will probably replace the Mobilio in the Honda lineup.

Last edited by antz.bin : 11th December 2015 at 20:37. Reason: Added resale bits
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Old 11th December 2015, 20:35   #347
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdutta View Post
  • What is the real useful life of a diesel vehicle like Ertiga or Lodgy in terms of engine life, and body life ? (Given that it is self driven, private use, careful driver, decent maintenance etc. Also, not talking about the high-end German engineered vehicles.)
  • What is the likelihood of diesel vehicles older than 10yrs being disallowed in most populated metros and large cosmopolitan cities, in the next 5-6 years ?
  • With most of the resale of diesel vehicles (people movers), apparently happening to taxi segment, what is the likely reaction of the govt moves to limit age-based usage ?
  • What happens to the older BS2 and BSIII vehicles, as soon as BSIV becomes mandatory ? How badly is the resale value hit due to this ?
  • Is it really true that diesel vehicle has 15-20% better resale value, compared to petrol vehicle ? (assuming that there are no particularly strong negative reviews about the vehicle) ?
  • Resale value of vehicles is better for which trim -- entry-level (often favoured by cabbies, if it has basic passenger comforts), mid-range or top-range ?
Diesel vehicles have more sturdy parts than their petrol counterparts. The diesel engine is heavy and hence manufacturers have to bolster suspension components and the chassis. The engine also vibrates a lot so they need to give it a stronger body. This indirectly helps diesel vehicles and they usually outlast their petrol counterparts. Diesel engine life is related to the engine. Toyota makes the best engine, next is Renault. The Fiat and Hyundai diesel engines are known to decline after 1,00,000 kilometers. With good care, diesel vehicles can easily last a lifetime

Law is defined as the Government policy for the moment. A street can be marked one-way for a few years and then reversed. What was legal yesterday becomes illegal today and vice-versa. Its very difficult predicting future Government policy. Lets assume someone sometime in the near future invents a chemical that can clean up the air! all Governments would then go lenient on pollution. As far as Government policy is concerned, its just guess work if you are trying to predict the future

A diesel car is easier to sell than its petrol counter-part. It also sells for a higher price and the top-end models sell quicker. A petrol Swift might take a month to find a buyer on Olx, a diesel Swift will be gone in a week. A ZDi, maybe the same day!

Last edited by TheARUN : 11th December 2015 at 20:36.
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Old 11th December 2015, 22:01   #348
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

When I wrote the last post, I had not yet seen these, which seem to indicate a growing clamor against diesel vehicles.Indeed, the higher torque (at much lower RPMs) is a huge plus for large people movers, but the news like those is quite likely to hurt the resale prospects.

While not immediately obvious, but the whole focus on industrialization / development ("make in India") is definitely going to aggravate the air-pollution problem (the way it is in China), and the diesel vehicle ban, may spread to other metros and large cosmopolitan cities as well.

Just playing devil's advocate here, trying to convince myself, either way !

Last edited by bdutta : 11th December 2015 at 22:03.
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Old 11th December 2015, 22:28   #349
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by bdutta View Post
When I wrote the last post, I had not yet seen these, which seem to indicate a growing clamor against diesel vehicles.Indeed, the higher torque (at much lower RPMs) is a huge plus for large people movers, but the news like those is quite likely to hurt the resale prospects.

While not immediately obvious, but the whole focus on industrialization / development ("make in India") is definitely going to aggravate the air-pollution problem (the way it is in China), and the diesel vehicle ban, may spread to other metros and large cosmopolitan cities as well.

Just playing devil's advocate here, trying to convince myself, either way !
What you don't understand is the reason why Delhi' s air stays polluted.

There is no smog/air pollution in coastal cities like Chennai, Bombay or even Kolkata because the sea breeze disperses the particulate particle pollution away from the city while air flow patterns in Delhi precipitates all particulate matter over itself.

So smog/ air pollution can't be a reason to ban diesel vehicles in other cities.
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Old 11th December 2015, 22:32   #350
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by bdutta View Post

While not immediately obvious, but the whole focus on industrialization / development ("make in India") is definitely going to aggravate the air-pollution problem (the way it is in China), and the diesel vehicle ban, may spread to other metros and large cosmopolitan cities as well.

Just playing devil's advocate here, trying to convince myself, either way !

I own a diesel Innova. But, in all likelyhood I won't replace that with another diesel.

Diesel outlook is very grim right now all around the world.

The reasons I used to like Diesel wasn't the torque or drivability etc. In fact, I feel petrols are better to drive. But, the major factor was fuel economy. Not even price of diesel, but the compression factor and mileage diesel would give per liter.

I always thought Diesel is a better fuel because it burns lesser fossil fuel per mile.

However, of late more I read about the SPM/Nox emissions of diesel, I believe unless technology changes, it isn't a good thing.

Cost is the major factor that drives diesel. So, govt. should simply impose a huge tax on diesel upfront. And retire diesel in 10-15years mandatorily. This will retard growth of Diesel.

The future India should move towards hybrids. Pure electric for daily commute and petrol for weekend commutes. Such a hybrid should have atleast 50km electric range, thus petrol need not kick in within the city. And people need not have separate long range vehicle.

I, for one, never drive Innova unless it is for a long drive. I use my Mahindra Reva E2O for city commute.

Easy, peppy and clean.

Govt. should encourage this class of vehicles.
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Old 11th December 2015, 22:33   #351
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdutta View Post
Having been a petrol car owner all along, been considering (i.e. torn between) petrol and diesel 7 seater.
With the petrol two options you have (Mobilio, Ertiga) , this question is best answered by the distance you'll be driving per year.
If you're looking at XUV 500, Scorpio, Innova etc, there's no petrol option to speak of.

Quote:
What is the real useful life of a diesel vehicle like Ertiga or Lodgy in terms of engine life, and body life ?
With modern vehicles, this should not be too much of a problem. A well maintained vehicle should easily last 15 years ans 2 lakh + km without opening the engine for a rebuild.

Quote:
What is the likelihood of diesel vehicles older than 10yrs being disallowed in most populated metros and large cosmopolitan cities, in the next 5-6 years ?
I would ask what is the likelihood that IC engines will exist for another 20 years?

On a serious note, that is a question which can't be answered easily. But if I were in the government, I would look at progressively phasing out small diesel vehicles.

Quote:
What happens to the older BS2 and BSIII vehicles, as soon as BSIV becomes mandatory ? How badly is the resale value hit due to this ?
All vehicles sold in Metros are BS 4 only. I don't think selling a BS 3 vehicle registered in the same city is a problem. Else, we may have a problem at home as our Innova is an '07 model which is BS3.
Quote:
Resale value of vehicles is better for which trim -- entry-level (often favoured by cabbies, if it has basic passenger comforts), mid-range or top-range ?
Err.. I think you should buy the variant that suits you. I would strongly recommend any variant that has dual airbags and ABS as a minimum. Higher variants can fetch you more money if you have features to show. Eg: Rear AC
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Old 13th December 2015, 14:11   #352
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Anyone has any manufacturer views on the "future of diesel" ? There have been no clear statements from any manufacturer in India. However in Europe, there seems to be a growing clamor in favour of petrol.

Uber announced that it'd stop usage of diesel taxis in Delhi. If that is really true and immediate, I wonder what happens to all those people who invested in diesel vehicles somewhat recently, enrolling with Uber as service providers. For them, the investment has tanked.
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Old 13th December 2015, 15:51   #353
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdutta View Post
Uber announced that it'd stop usage of diesel taxis in Delhi. If that is really true and immediate, I wonder what happens to all those people who invested in diesel vehicles somewhat recently, enrolling with Uber as service providers. For them, the investment has tanked.
Maybe they will convert their cars into CNGs as well. But I think conversion of diesel car into CNG is seldom done.
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Old 13th December 2015, 16:18   #354
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdutta View Post
Having been a petrol car owner all along, been considering (i.e. torn between) petrol and diesel 7 seater. Read several posts here on TBHP and other similar sites, including several pages of this thread, but given the recent moves in Delhi, fuelled by Delhi HC asking govt to take urgent measures to contain pollution, I am wondering on several aspects of buying a diesel vehicle.
  • What is the real useful life of a diesel vehicle like Ertiga or Lodgy in terms of engine life, and body life ? (Given that it is self driven, private use, careful driver, decent maintenance etc. Also, not talking about the high-end German engineered vehicles.)
  • What is the likelihood of diesel vehicles older than 10yrs being disallowed in most populated metros and large cosmopolitan cities, in the next 5-6 years ?
  • With most of the resale of diesel vehicles (people movers), apparently happening to taxi segment, what is the likely reaction of the govt moves to limit age-based usage ?
  • What happens to the older BS2 and BSIII vehicles, as soon as BSIV becomes mandatory ? How badly is the resale value hit due to this ?
  • Is it really true that diesel vehicle has 15-20% better resale value, compared to petrol vehicle ? (assuming that there are no particularly strong negative reviews about the vehicle) ?
  • Resale value of vehicles is better for which trim -- entry-level (often favoured by cabbies, if it has basic passenger comforts), mid-range or top-range ?
Please excuse the crazy focus on resale value and "life" of vehicle, but it is so because, I've pretty much evaluated on other fronts, and trying hard to settle the push-pull between petrol and diesel.
I can answer a couple of your queries:
1 - Both petrol and diesel are pretty sturdy engines and the prossibility of failures is really random. In my company I have seen Indicas which have done 4Lakh Km and petrol wagonRs in 2lakh Km without opening the engine. Their engines still didn't seem tired at all. Although body rattle etc was bad. it all depends on maintenance.
5 - Not true in absolute terms. Note that diesel cars orignal cost itself is often 1-1.5 lakhs more. However the difference in resale price is certainly less than this. So you will probably lose more money on diesel car.
6 - The underlying principle is that most people associate a price to the model and not trim level. During my WagonR hunt and Honda city hunt, the premium for higher trim level was often less than 25% of original price difference. The way people think for example is "If you want a 2 yr old Honda city, you should get for about range of 7.5-8 lakhs. if someone is asking 9Lakh, dont buy because in that budget you will easily get Corolla also". The higher trim level is considered somewhat desirable by a used car buyer, but they wont be willing to shell a huge amount of money for the higher trim level. Also, the higher the cost, the harder they fall. i.e. %fall in price of 10 lakh car is much higher than that of a 5 lakh car, everything else remaining the same.
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Old 13th December 2015, 23:22   #355
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Default Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdutta View Post
Anyone has any manufacturer views on the "future of diesel" ? There have been no clear statements from any manufacturer in India. However in Europe, there seems to be a growing clamor in favour of petrol.

Uber announced that it'd stop usage of diesel taxis in Delhi. If that is really true and immediate, I wonder what happens to all those people who invested in diesel vehicles somewhat recently, enrolling with Uber as service providers. For them, the investment has tanked.

Uber and Ola are obliged to comply with the court order to use only CNG for all of their fleet plying in Delhi. They got a reprieve to convert fully by 1-April-16, so it is not a voluntary move but forced on them to contain pollution.

Talking about engines, diesel engines are as reliable as petrol ones, the finesse depends on what is the strong point of individual manufacturers. What strikes a dissonant chord though is that the Germans who are considered the gurus of Diesel engines also couldn't get their diesel engines to perform within the emission limits and went to the extent of faking the results across the family of its brands of VW, Audi and others.

Petrol or diesel is a purely personal choice but yes the odds against diesel appear to be mounting given the pressure on emission norms in cities.

Last edited by outdoorlover : 13th December 2015 at 23:24.
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Old 14th December 2015, 11:23   #356
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

This has all started with the dieselisation of Indian economy based on basic false premises that diesel is being used by the common man. That is a fallacy as petrol is being used by small cars and two wheelers. World over, diesel prices are higher than petrol prices by 20-50, the reason being that diesel is always used as a commercial fuel and therefore should be priced higher. I understand that in UAE diesel private vehicles are banned altogether.

A simple solution for India is to raise diesel prices through higher taxes gradually till they are 50% higher than petrol / CNG prices. The pollution standards also should be gradually advanced by a couple of years. This will start correcting the imbalance in the economy. Once diesel becomes expensive, all vehicles using diesel will ensure that the maintenance is done properly and maximum efficiency is achieved. This will automatically reduce pollution and further improve efficiency. Price of Kerosene also should be increased so that there is not much scope for adulteration and subsidy if any can be given through DBT.

Of course all cities should be creating high standard public transport. When BEST used to run their AC buses regularly, I ditched my car and opted to use the AC bus. For various reasons, now the AC buses are being consigned to the scrap bin and the AC tickets priced higher than even Ola/Uber, I have to use my own car.

These bans are all knee jerk reactions which will serve to only inconvenience the public and actually cause more pollution.
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Old 16th December 2015, 12:20   #357
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

The bans are indeed knee jerk reactions, but the question is, as a prospective diesel vehicle buyer in an Indian city (other than Delhi - since for Delhi the current choice is pretty clear), what are the chances that such knee jerk reactions are seen in other cities as well ?

For example, there are several reports of Bangalore being the 2nd worst city as far air-pollution is concerned. How long before we see such local govt taking a cue from Delhi (or even NGT stepping in) to introduce such bans. Pune, for example isn't too far behind (as per this report). In fact, this report says that Bangalore air quality is worse than Delhi. Surprisingly Hyderabad and Mumbai seem to fare much better.

Given this, would it be right to conclude that it may be imprudent to go for a diesel vehicle, especially if mileage and power are not the biggest concerns ?

Last edited by bdutta : 16th December 2015 at 12:24.
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Old 16th December 2015, 15:42   #358
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I think many Bhp-ians will find the following guardian link informative. http://www.theguardian.com/environme...alth-pollution


Basically, it talks about the trade off between lower co2 but higher Nox and particulate of diesels. But that time ( late 90s) the climate change was on the minds and reducing Co2 was thought more important than others. So in Europe diesel was promoted, subsidised fuel/road tax linked to co2 emissions etc which now results in 50-50 petrol diesel cars.

Compared to USA and Jap/east Asia, Europeans went diesel whereas they went hybrid/electric! So actually we have both cases on our hands. Easy to study them and implement best of both ideologies in Delhi or even elsewhere.


Quote:
As new research shows that diesel fumes are worse than expected for health, triggering cancers, heart attacks and the stunting of childrens growth, many politicians have admitted a major environmental mistake.

Shadow environment minister Barry Gardiner told C4 last year that that it was the wrong decision to incentivise diesel. Hands up- there's absolutely no question that the decision we took was the wrong decision. But at that time we didn't have the evidence that subsequently we did have.
Note - mods please move this to the odd/even thread if appropriate.

Last edited by blackwasp : 16th December 2015 at 15:47.
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Old 18th January 2016, 13:23   #359
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

I am in this same dilemma and I have narrowed down my choice to the following two cars
Ritz VDi and Alto K10 VXi.
This is going to be my first car and I only want to buy a Maruti Car because of their excellent after sales service in our city. I am planning to buy any of these cars on EMI and I will only pay around 52 thousand rupees upfront. I have small family of 3 members and Alto K10 VXi satifies all our needs perfectly. Ritz is an option only because of lower running cost and I have read somewhere that Petrol prices are going to be around Rs.100/litre in next few years. My monthly running will be around 1000 kms . My office is about 3.5 km away from my home and there are going to be atleast three out of the city trips of around 150 Kms(up and down) each. Apart from this I usually go out with my family on weekend and all this combined makes around 1000km. The difference between both the cars is around Rs. 267000 and I am planning to keep any these cars for atleat 7 to 8 years. So keeping all of this in mind, which one do you think will be more economical in the long run for me?
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Old 18th January 2016, 15:21   #360
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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I am in this same dilemma and I have narrowed down my choice to the following two cars
Ritz VDi and Alto K10 VXi.
HI hsinxh,

welcome to TBHP

Your monthly usage of 1000 KMs doesn't warrant a diesel car, the 2.67 lacs would be a huge savings. For a family of 3, the Alto K10 is sufficient, also the engine is a peppy, fun to drive one, no wonder its the pocket rocket. It'll be easy on your pocket

Also the Ritz is about to be phased out soon. The running costs of the Ritz won't give savings because of the initial 2.67 lacs, it'll take more than 7 years for you to recover the initial amount invested in a diesel given your monthly usage, invest this amount and enjoy your K10.

Happy shopping

Last edited by Karthik Chandra : 18th January 2016 at 15:25.
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