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Old 3rd May 2016, 15:24   #391
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Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post


The GT 1.2 may appear puny on paper but that TSI motor and DSG gearbox ensures it out paces many sedans and almost every other hatch in our market today. Just the ability to keep pace with Abarth to some extent speaks a lot.



Most importantly, my comparison was more focused towards the advantage of Diesel engine and the torque wave one gets to experience out on long travels. So I personally love the modern day Diesel engines over the petrol motors.



And I believe, this thread is all about that.

Yes, I know your intention was to highlight the torque of the diesel. 1.2 TSI is by no means a slouch, and soon I will be able to compare it with an Abarth Punto.

But fact remains that we've never ever been provided with an opportunity to do an apples to apples comparison wrt the petrol and diesel model. Common man will always associate diesel with high running and petrol with low running. Cars like the 1.2Tsi, Abarth Punto and Scross 1.6 are breaking that trend.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 15:30   #392
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
Woah guys, I think you either did not read my entire post or surely did not understand my point. I was not once comparing the 1.2 TSI to 1.6 TDI.

Well I still dont get your point. Specially when you say the below part after comparing a Diesel car with a petrol car that has almost 25% smaller heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
Most importantly, my comparison was more focused towards the advantage of Diesel engine and the torque wave one gets to experience out on long travels. So I personally love the modern day Diesel engines over the petrol motors.

And I believe, this thread is all about that.

Do we have too many here who say a Linea Tjet with a 1.4 litre engine is less fun to drive than a Linea MJD with 1.3 Litre Engine?

The comparison is much closer here I guess.

EDIT: I drive a diesel myself and like to ride the torque. I am just saying that probably you chose the wrong two cars to drive that point home.

Last edited by vibbs : 3rd May 2016 at 15:33.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 20:08   #393
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
are you getting the petrol AT Creta in a week? which dealer is this? all Dealers I spoke to in NCR said at least 4-5 months waiting.
I am actually switching an existing booking from the Diesel to Petrol. The Diesel was scheduled to be delivered in the coming week and the booking dates back to last year

Even then, I doubt if the delivery periods of the Petrol A/T would run into 4-5 months. Initially I was quoted a waiting period of 3 months for the Petrol A/T when I tried to convert the booking, but at that time the dealers didn't even have an idea on pricing

I can speak to the dealer I am interacting with to check on the delivery time for a new booking and let you know
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Old 3rd May 2016, 20:11   #394
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

I would like to know how people here would respond to this, if we take the mileage out of the equation or you're given free lifetime supply of fuel, would you choose a petrol or a diesel? Eg: 1.8 TSI vs 1.9/2.0 TDI? My choice would be a petrol, I personally feel it is possible to make a petrol engine diesel like, but not the other way round. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Last edited by nim_peter : 3rd May 2016 at 20:24.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 20:44   #395
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
I would like to know how people here would respond to this, if we take the mileage out of the equation or you're given free lifetime supply of fuel, would you choose a petrol or a diesel? Eg: 1.8 TSI vs 1.9/2.0 TDI? My choice would be a petrol, I personally feel it is possible to make a petrol engine diesel like, but not the other way round. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Every petrol-head understands that Sir. I believe that as long as you know how to properly extract and enjoy a petrol motor's performance, you will never be able to truly love a diesel car. However I find that there are a lot of folk out there who actually prefer diesels not just for the mileage and efficiency, but also for their easy access to loads of torque especially at the lower end of the pricing spectrum.

At the end of the day there is no way a Diesel can match or even come close to the levels of sheer driving pleasure a good petrol motor can offer

Last edited by IshaanIan : 3rd May 2016 at 20:46.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 21:31   #396
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
However I find that there are a lot of folk out there who actually prefer diesels not just for the mileage and efficiency, but also for their easy access to loads of torque especially at the lower end of the pricing spectrum.
Doesn't a turbo petrol offer the same torque or something closer to diesel. Another question I have is, how much torque do we actually need on a regular drive? I just went thru the specs of Octavia 1.8 TSI(250NM@1500) and 2.0 TDI(320NM@1750). What does that extra 70NM torque translate into? Can we say for a car weighing 1.2 ton with 5 passengers and luggage, X torque is enough and anything above it is not of good use? Not a debate, just trying to understand
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Old 3rd May 2016, 21:40   #397
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
Doesn't a turbo petrol offer the same torque or something closer to diesel. Another question I have is, how much torque do we actually need on a regular drive? I just went thru the specs of Octavia 1.8 TSI(250NM@1500) and 2.0 TDI(320NM@1750). What does that extra 70NM torque translate into? Can we say for a car weighing 1.2 ton with 5 passengers and luggage, X torque is enough and anything above it is not of good use? Not a debate, just trying to understand
70nm of torque is a very noticeable increase. Besides, it is not about the specs or what we need on a regular drive. Most people even a lot of enthusiasts haven't even experienced driving on the limit. To the average Joe, a bigger kick in his seat translates to more fun. Or atleast that is my theory on the matter I suppose a diesel fan will have to share his perspective on this matter.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 22:27   #398
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

If the comparison is between a turbo diesel and an NA petrol of same size, I would pick the diesel in most cases.
However, (if the fuel efficiency is taken out of consideration), I personally find absolutely no reason to consider a turbo diesel over a turbo petrol.

Turbo petrols have good peak torque output that is closer to the diesels (at similar price points), but over a much wider range.

E.g: Octavia RS
2.0 TDI: 380 Nm @ 1750-3000 rpm -- 184 HP @ 3500-4000 rpm.
2.0 TSI: 350 Nm @ 1500-4600 rpm -- 230 HP @ 4700-6200 rpm.

The TSI makes available its peak torque at a lower RPM and carries it on for an additional 1600 RPM.
TDI's torque drops to about 350Nm at 3750 RPM and to about 327 at 4000 while the TSI's drops to the same 327 at 5000.

In other words, I personally would not mind to trade in a meagre 8% less punch for a much longer one.

This explains it,


That said, the 2.0 TSI's torque drops a bit too much at higher revs for a petrol.

Consider the Peugeot 308 GTI. This one packs a 1.6 turbo petrol making 266HP @ 6000 rpm and 330Nm @ 1900 rpm.
This one beats most 1.6 diesels in terms of torque output and shames them in terms of maintaining that torque.
It retains around 315 Nm at as high as 6000 RPM. That's about 95.6%!
Most diesels have their torque dropped to <75% by the time they hit 4000RPM.

All in all, when you have great in gear acceleration as well as outright performance, why look the other way?

When it comes to Indian market, things go downhill. Because of people's mindset (petrol engines should be cheaper) and stupid govt. policies, we get substandard petrol engines. The already underpowered 1.2 NA petrols are detuned further for fuel efficiency. Due to this, even small capacity turbo petrol engines meant for efficiency like 1.2 TSI, 1.0 Ecoboost shine as 'high performance engines'. OTOH, we get quite good diesel engines. This and the puny NA engines make people think that petrols suck when it comes to low end performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
I just went thru the specs of Octavia 1.8 TSI(250NM@1500) and 2.0 TDI(320NM@1750). What does that extra 70NM torque translate into? Can we say for a car weighing 1.2 ton with 5 passengers and luggage, X torque is enough and anything above it is not of good use? Not a debate, just trying to understand
70 Nm will be significant, but the 250Nm for 1.8 TSI is because of the limitation of DSG. Manual makes 320Nm
Limitation of usable torque depends on a lot of factors like tires, road surface, FWD vs RWD vs AWD etc.

70 Nm of torque = better performance in those RPM ranges. Power is a hypothetical figure. Torque is the real force that is produced by the engine's combustion. If the same torque is produced at twice the RPM, resultant push will be double which shows up as 2xpower.

Last edited by theredliner : 3rd May 2016 at 22:56.
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Old 4th May 2016, 08:00   #399
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
If the comparison is between a turbo diesel and an NA petrol of same size, I would pick the diesel in most cases.

E.g: Octavia RS
2.0 TDI: 380 Nm @ 1750-3000 rpm -- 184 HP @ 3500-4000 rpm.
2.0 TSI: 350 Nm @ 1500-4600 rpm -- 230 HP @ 4700-6200 rpm.

The TSI makes available its peak torque at a lower RPM and carries it on for an additional 1600 RPM.

TDI's torque drops to about 350Nm at 3750 RPM and to about 327 at 4000 while the TSI's drops to the same 327 at 5000.


70 Nm will be significant, but the 250Nm for 1.8 TSI is because of the limitation of DSG. Manual makes 320Nm

70 Nm of torque = better performance in those RPM ranges. Power is a hypothetical figure. Torque is the real force that is produced by the engine's combustion. If the same torque is produced at twice the RPM, resultant push will be double which shows up as 2xpower.
@redliner, my post is not a response to yours, but I am using your figures ...

1. Printed Engine Torque figures DO NOT MATTER. Engine torque magnification happens differently for different cars depending on their gear ratios and wheel dia. the TDI engine generates higher peak torque at crankshaft, but does it lead to higher torque available at the wheels?

2. The printer torque figures are PEAK numbers. Do we know what is the shape of this torque curve? It may peak very high, but drop quite low around the peak figure.

3. Most diesels: NA, Turbo, Common Rail - whichever you may chose, develops higher torque at quite low RPMs but runs out of breath (which in other words means engine stops producing substantial torque) at higher RPM. What that means is that you need to keep shifting gear in order to keep the engine operating at "substantial torque regime" to accelerate over wide speeds.

4. Most petrols: produce mediocre torque starting off but produce quite steady torque till redline. This means you can stay in the same gear and accelerate over wide speeds, since the engine is producing substantial torque across the rpm rpm range.

Turbo petrol start producing high torque right from the beginning - thus making it an ideal engine (high torque upfront + continue it till very high up in the revs).

If one takes a test drive on a highway, empty twisty road: one realizes this glaring shortcoming of the diesels.
Also in most vehicles the comparison is done between natural aspirated petrol with turbocharged diesel.


Now the problem is that in cities, with bumper to bumper stop go traffic that results in average speed of 0-20 kmph + we are concerned with squeezing out the maximum distance per drop of fuel, we end up running the engine in 1000 to 2500 rpm range. Since diesel engines produce their substantial torques around this rpm range we end up getting really impressed by them.


The best means of comparing the drivability of the engines would be to publish an average BHP figure, which is the area below the BHP curve divided by the rpm range. Unfortunately no one publishes that.

Last edited by Aditya : 5th May 2016 at 06:57. Reason: As requested
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Old 4th May 2016, 09:37   #400
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
I would like to know how people here would respond to this, if we take the mileage out of the equation or you're given free lifetime supply of fuel, would you choose a petrol or a diesel? Eg: 1.8 TSI vs 1.9/2.0 TDI? My choice would be a petrol, I personally feel it is possible to make a petrol engine diesel like, but not the other way round. Correct me if I'm wrong.
At times people buy diesel vehicles as there are limited options- like I purchased the XUV500. I doubt I will drive more than 6000 km in a year, maybe a bit more in the first few years, due to excitement, or trying to get more miles on the odometer etc.

I wanted a comfortable and competent 6 seater SUV, and frankly, what options did I have? I even test drove the Ertiga, and no offense to Ertiga owners, I just couldn't appreciate the vehicle. Maybe it is because I was owning and driving a Swift for 11 years. Mobilio and Lodgy did not appeal for a variety of other reasons.

Now what if XUV500 was also available in petrol version? About 2 years back, when I was fine with a 5 seater, I was looking at the Duster in petrol option. I was discouraged (not sure if it was the dealer or Duster owning friends) with statements like- This is just on paper, no one buys petrol SUV/ MPV in India. You will have trouble during servicing, and definitely during resale!
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Old 4th May 2016, 11:06   #401
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Hi all,

I have a very different kind of question in my mind. One of my friend is currently in the market looking for a car between 10-15 lakhs and he is completely sold on Maruti S-Cross 1.6. He's basically from Delhi but is currently working in Hyderabad but he plans to move back to Delhi in a couple of years.

Now his parents are saying that he should not get a diesel as diesel cars have already been banned in Delhi (above 2,000 cc), and it is possible that even lower capacity diesel engines be banned in Delhi in the coming 2-3 years. Also according to them people in Delhi are disposing off their diesel cars and buying petrol cars instead.

Now my friend is in a big dilemma about what should he do? Whether he should listen to his heart and go for S-Cross and should he listen to his parents and look for a petrol car instead.

Looking forward to some inputs from seniors and people with some contacts.

Thanks in advance.

Mods: Please move this post to a suitable thread if it doesn't suits here. I posted it here as it's a battle between petrol and diesel car. Thanks.
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Old 5th May 2016, 09:14   #402
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Never been so confused; while most Petrol vs. Diesel calculators are indicating the break even point, none of them has factored in the re sale value of Petrol vs. Diesel by segment

The car in question is the Hyundai Creta Petrol A/T vs. the Diesel A/T
I have an average monthly running of 1200-1500 kms

Having seen the re sale value of Petrol cars in this segment in the past, I am a little jittery about the decision to go for Petrol, but I do not particularly have an inclination towards diesel engines.On the other hand there isn't enough clarity about the future of Diesel engines and resale basis the Government's recent measures in Delhi

I have done the maths around Fuel differentiation and now the only deciding factor is difference in re sale value. If it is to the tune of the difference paid today (1.8 Lacs), then it is ok and I would pick the Petrol, but could it much more than that?

I have to take this decision today as the car is scheduled to be delivered in the coming week.

Any inputs/suggestions would be sincerely appreciated

Please Help
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Old 5th May 2016, 10:54   #403
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Looks like this has been missed about the current diesel engines:
http://carbibles.blogspot.in/2016/05...-test-not.html



Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_2025 View Post
Never been so confused; while most Petrol vs. Diesel calculators are indicating the break even point, none of them has factored in the re sale value of Petrol vs. Diesel by segment

The car in question is the Hyundai Creta Petrol A/T vs. the Diesel A/T
I have an average monthly running of 1200-1500 kms
What is the resale depreciation of petrol vehicle in %/year terms compared with depreciation of diesel vehicle in %/year terms?
[Say for Hyundai Verna - which is similar to Creta and has both petrol and diesel in it's stable]
If you are certain that the figure for petrol is higher, then by all means go ahead with diesel.
But let me play the devil's advocate here - New Delhi is all geared to abolish diesel for private transport. If not in next 5 years, it may happen in the next 10 years ... what will happen to your vehicle's resale then?

Edit: So well I did spend about 10-15 minutes on carwale to track the depreciation of same model over the years.
It comes out that Hyundai Verna diesels depreciate by about 8.8% per annum, whereas Verna petrols depreciate by about 9.3% per annum. (Difference between the two is 0.5%)

Please compute if this difference really becomes a financial game changer for you.

Last edited by alpha1 : 5th May 2016 at 11:18.
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Old 6th May 2016, 10:23   #404
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

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Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
I would like to know how people here would respond to this, if we take the mileage out of the equation or you're given free lifetime supply of fuel, would you choose a petrol or a diesel? Eg: 1.8 TSI vs 1.9/2.0 TDI?
It boils down to drivability. I would choose a better engine of the two, be it a diesel or petrol. Petrol engines have a wider power band which is more enjoyable on open roads.

Petrols are generally better suited to my driving style as they offer better mid-top (= FUN) range. Diesels, on the other hand, are more suited to spirited city driving (but sedate driving on highways) because of the brutal acceleration and turbo kick. They are less fun, once you are at the end of the power band but the pull when the turbo kicks in makes up for it. A turbo-petrol would be best of both worlds.

Quote:
My choice would be a petrol, I personally feel it is possible to make a petrol engine diesel like, but not the other way round. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I beg to differ here. A naturally aspirated petrol engine would need to be worked upon, to make it diesel like, as it has a linear power band. It is not designed for the diesel kick. Petrol engines don't perform as good as a diesel when the revs are under 3k. Some diesel engines like Figo give zero turbo lag and are even better in drivability. If you mean to say that a petrol engine can be made to give a turbo-ish kick (or a sudden jump at certain RPM), then it would be possible only when you rev hard and would depend on how fast the car gains revs. You will have to bury the throttle at some point and wait for the revs to catch up to feel the kick. In diesels, it is easier because of turbo. And a diesel engine can not be made petrol like, no matter how refined or revv-happy it is. The power band is not linear and only an expert who knows the power & torque curves thoroughly can drive a diesel like a petrol. So you are correct on that one.

Diesel engines are known for :

1) Low end grunt, as compared to petrol engines
2) More torque
3) Turbo kick

I don't think a petrol engine can be made to offer any of these without being hard (/harsh) on the A-pedal or doing some major engine mods.

Petrol engines are known for :

1) Revv-happy or smooth nature
2) Linear power delivery, and thus top end grunt
3) A wider power band, as compared to diesel engines

No diesel can perform in this manner. Diesel engines are generally more noisy, and late to catch revs. Diesel engines have a turbo kick and thus the power band isn't linear. Cars like Figo Diesel come close to petrols in low-mid range power delivery but lose out definitely on top-end. The revv-limiter kicks in early and power starts to taper off after a point (much before the redline) in diesels, thus a limited power band.

Diesels can perform better at low speeds because of more torque at lower revs, petrols shine at the top-end.

PS. These are my personal observations from driving a handful of diesel cars for short distances only. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 6th May 2016, 11:00   #405
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Default Re: Petrol versus Diesel Cars

Can I call a fiesta 1.6 vs a tucson 2.0 in for a comparison?
I think 400 cc and 40 bhp, and some torques less can be balanced by the size, weight and profile difference?
I think so.

Acceleration : Fiesta is faster to 40ish. The turbo and the torque on the tucson blitzes her from 40 till about 100. Difference being the fiesta will be singing(literally) in 3rd, while the tucson is noisier in 4th.
Cornering and exit speeds: No contest
Stopping: The tucson stops faster, but the fiesta is less hair raising
Top speed: The tooky is faster, but the fiesta feels better at 0xA0 (hex). They both go even higher, but the tooky feel-good deteriorates much faster, and to a much lower level than the other.


Fuel: Lets just say, the pump guy is a closer friend when I am in the tooky, as I come more often to give him more money than in the other case.


Also, in the hills, the engine and the gears on the oil drinker are much more forgiving.
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