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Old 28th June 2012, 23:11   #76
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Originally Posted by Cayman360
The Yeti makes a strong case at this price range. Funcky styling and great to drive (and not too bulky to be tough in traffic, just the right size), it thoroughly differentiates itself from the C segment sedans, and offers a package truly unique. I mean I would be happy with a Vento/Rapid/City and not really aspire for a Laura. But a Yeti in that lovely dark coffee color just looks so attractive a proposition that I would be excited for the upgrade! BS Motoring recently compared the X1 to the Q3 and concluded that the Yeti would make one just as happy!

Of course soon we'll have a bunch of affordable mini SUVs to compete for value. Skoda does have good brand value to make the Yeti aspirational.
I agree with this post and thought process. Yes the Yeti does almost everything that the Q 3 does, at less than half the price.
But, do please enlighten me, as per the Indian Motor classifications, where does the Yeti sit? C or C + segment?
Or is it unclassifiable, being abominable and a littlebigfoot?

Last edited by shankar.balan : 28th June 2012 at 23:13.
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Old 28th June 2012, 23:31   #77
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

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Originally Posted by aravind.anand View Post
Cruze VS Verna:
Now, both these aren't from the same stable, agreed. But these are the two cars that people are most likely to get confused with, IMHO. So when the Verna allows me to save 2-3 Lakhs over the Cruze for image stakes, why wouldn't one pick it up?
Why one should pick up Cruze over Verna? Answer is very simple. Highway driving . Verna is the worst highway car in it's category. On the other hand Cruze is an ideal Highway car. Cruze worth more than the extra price if some one is buying the car for highway drives.
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Old 29th June 2012, 00:01   #78
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Originally Posted by GTO
A thought just occurred to me : Things are so bad in the D1 segment that Honda hasn't even bothered to launch the new-generation Civic! This is unlike Honda which refreshes its Indian lineup immediately upon a global debut.

But Honda continues to flog a dead horse. It knows that the next-generation Civic isn't going to make any difference at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarathlal

Isn't this because, the new generation Civic is not a success in other markets, and Honda themselves has committed to revamp that design and launch again?
I would say, we need to appreciate Honda in not dumping a known non-successful version in our market and rather wait for the rectified version to take it in.
Diesel mill can be the reason done till then.
Spot on. It's not that current market situation for D1 segment is holding Honda off to launch new Civic. Matter of fact, new Civic has received so bad reviews that Honda has actually gone back to board and are in process of revamping the new Civic. It does not make any sense for Honda to launch the model that is going under scanner currently and is expected to be revamped in near future. Rather I appreciate Honda that they didn't launch new Civic in India as a dumping ground.
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Old 29th June 2012, 09:46   #79
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In my opinion, more than the purchase price price it is the resale price of D1 segment cars that keeps away potential customers. The resale price in India is governed not by what features or technology a car has, but by what features or technology could possibly go wrong in a car. (Atleast for Dealers). Most dealers or investors quote for cars without actually seeing them based on the problems the car could give. Thus a car which is loaded with technology and features is bound to give problems in their mind. For Eg: A Skoda Laura depreciates a lot more than a WagonR, simply because it is perceived to be more expensive to repair. You could have a 2008 Skoda Laura for around 7lakhs which is around 40percent of its purchase price. Heck I have even seen a 2010 Jetta Diesel Comfortline for 8.75lakhs. Now compare this to a WagonR and it will be hard to find a 2008 model for less than 2.25lakhs which is around 55 to 58 percent of its list price.
The low resale values are a real dampener when it comes to purchasing a new car, because you take depreciation into your running cost while buying a car. The C segment cars are still considered cheaper to maintain and hence depreciate much lesser reducing overall running cost.
Last year my colleague bought a Fluidic Verna 1.6 CRDi for 10.4lakhs OTR. And we purchases a Jetta TL for 15.2laks OTR. Both cars have run approximately 18k kms and return similar fuel economy. Upset with the ride quality of the Verna my colleague has just sold off his Verna for 9.3lakhs to a dealer. Just for curiosity I enquired about the resale value of the Jetta and dealers have quoted absurd figures of 10lakhs to 11lakhs. Considering we even get 12lakhs for the car. The depreciation cost per km for the Jetta would 17.7Rs/km as compared to 5.5Rs/km for the Verna. This cost is what hits you really hard more than the running cost, and makes you wonder if it makes sense to buy a car in this segment again.
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Old 29th June 2012, 11:12   #80
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

I, for one, am happy to see small diesel engines making into D1 segment. For those who need cars bigger than C2 segment, these engines offer the same running costs in D1 segment too. Unfortunately, these options in D1 segment are far too overpriced. If they were priced close to their powerful petrol variants, they could have given competition to C2 segment diesel cars.
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Old 29th June 2012, 11:23   #81
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohandasnikhil View Post
The resale price in India is governed not by what features or technology a car has, but by what features or technology could possibly go wrong in a car. For Eg: A Skoda Laura depreciates a lot more than a WagonR, simply because it is perceived to be more expensive to repair.
+1 to that. So even after one has paid a premium for a slightly better product he stands to lose in terms of resale value and also higher service costs. A Civic is definitely more expensive to maintain than a City.

Last edited by ashis89 : 29th June 2012 at 11:28.
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Old 29th June 2012, 11:47   #82
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Its very true that D1 segment is falling.

IMO the major difference or the USP for D1 over C2 would be the high speed handling ability. Now we may ask, how many time do we get to cross 100 or 120 for that matter. Well i tend to cross it atleast thrice every. (Beauty of being in sales).

When over Accent has crossed 1.2 lakh km mark, we needed a replacement for it. First the budget was prepared for a C2 segment car. I test drove Vento, Rapid and Fiesta (didnt want an another Hyundai and also the handling capacity of Verna at high speeds are always questionable). During this transmission phase my Dad was using my Punto and he wanted something with similar handling capcity and none of the C2 segment cars matched it. Fiesta was good to an extent, but few very bitter experiences with two ikons in our family, made my dad vow never to touch a Ford. It was then the budget got stretched by 5 more lakhs and we considered D1 and after driving

1. Fluence (booked and canceled just before delivery because of the poor brand presence)
2. Yeti (didnt opt because of Skoda)
3. Laura (same reason as above)
4. Jetta (too costly on our budget)

so it was Cruze which was shortlisted and we are really happy and content with it.

The point I'm trying to make here is D1 would be more for handling and image rather than just goodies which C2 has a lot to offer
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Old 29th June 2012, 15:04   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shashank.nk

I don't know what Ajmat meant in his post if the figures you've quoted are correct, then yes the Laura's price increase is well within the WPI for cars.

The same WPI may be the reason C2 segment cars are now priced closer to D1 segment cars were, 5 years ago. My point is in the C2 segment, cars are better equipped now (engine, features etc) than they were say 5 or 6 years ago. The customer has a 'perception' of more VFM, even though the additional features are at a price. With D2 i see an increase in price, with no corresponding increase in VFM quotient.
I was being sarcastic whilst agreeing with you!
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Old 29th June 2012, 16:03   #84
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Now , why are we comparing on road prices between different segments ? A fair comparision would be btwn models before taxes and excise rather than compare on-road prices .

showroom prices would give a better insight as to why the prices are steep for the "d" segment
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Old 29th June 2012, 16:51   #85
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Cool Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aravind.anand View Post
Let’s see specific cases now
City VS Civic:
The City offers 118 bhp vs 130 offered by the Civic. 12 more horses do seem puny, but the additional torque from the 1.8 L engine makes piloting the Civic much more fun, but in the 1000-4000 rpm range, which most users are likely to use most of the time, the difference is marginal.The Civic offers more space, but the City has never been criticized for the lack of same.
The Civic's interiors is a world apart from anything even in the D1 segment, forget the C2 then. City's interior quality has been a critic favourite.The City can manage 11 kmpl inside city with AC on pretty easily, the Civic would burn your pockets with 8 kmpl or lesser (when pushed hard).The Civic offers better looks, interiors and quality, but when one is asked 5-6 Lakhs more for that, the mind shouts "CITY" !
Vento VS Jetta:
To a non-petrol head, the decision is simply made this way - "Both cars have a same face, the Jetta's derrière looks more expensive though. The interiors are also too similar, the fuel efficiency is better in the Vento, also the spares cost would be less. Oh God! What if my neighbor thinks I have got a Vento like his friend? He would never know that I had paid 6 -7 Lakhs more than his friend. Now why should I buy this Jetta and waste my cash when people won’t realize how much I paid for it? Let me buy the Vent instead!"
Cruze VS Verna:
Now, both these aren't from the same stable, agreed. But these are the two cars that people are most likely to get confused with, IMHO. The Cruze is a diesel rocket with 150 bhp on tap, the Verna with 128 horses hauling it, is no slouch either! Both look menacing from the front and luxurious from the rear. The equipment is comparable too; in fact the Verna with the reversing camera even pips the Cruze's equipment list. The Hyundai has better appointed interiors with the black and beige that the Indians are so much in love with, also the quality is on par, if not better than the Cruze. Space is also on par with the Chevrolet from D1! So when the Verna allows me to save 2-3 Lakhs over the Cruze for image stakes, why wouldn't one pick it up?
Rapid VS Laura:
The Rapid TDi with 105 horses on tap matches and exceeds the power to weight ratio of the Laura D! The quality and interior colour combination is no match to what the Laura brings to the battle. But the space is more than just a close battle between the two. In terms of equipment, the Laura offers more, but the Rapid has all the consumer essential equipment neatly covered as well. Besides the Rapid is a traditional sedan, though the Laura is accepted to be one, it really isn't one. But that is something nice in terms of practicality and uniqueness as well! But when one realizes that he could almost buy two Rapids for the money of a Laura, mind starts taking control and steers away from the bigger Skoda!

I have a CRUZE and i did take a detailed test drive of the Verna and i think the comparison that you make here is not justified.

What do i get extra in the CRUZE by paying 3 lacs more -

1. Awesome Stability at high speeds - what use is the 128 BHP of the Verna if it starts to feel like a boat at 120 kmph!!

2. Handling - Handling though not as good as the Linea is much better than the Verna even at low speeds.

3. Sapce & Width - i have never brushed my arm with the passenger while changing gears. Something which happened in the Verna test drive often.

4. Much better interiors - I don't care for bluetooth, cheap wood finish etc etc.

I wanted driving pleasure in diesel and i think none of the C2 sedans could give me that (including the vento).
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Old 29th June 2012, 17:52   #86
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Here is a small comparison I did, highlighting what you get and what you don't for the premium you pay.
The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)-d1-vs-c2.png

Did it in a hurry so some points may have been missed out. Prices are indicative (got them from carwale's ready reckoner) and do not include discounts etc.

My conclusions:
  1. Civic over City offers the least tangible value (though looks may count high in some people's book). The premium is also the least compared to the other C2/D1 combinations
  2. Altis vs Etios is the highest premium: this is probably a conscious differentiation strategy by Toyota not avoid diluting its global Corolla equity
  3. Laura seems to offer a much better value proposition over a Rapid than Jetta does over Vento especially in the Elegance trim compared here
  4. Altis diesel is ridiculously underpowered: the diesel Altis actually has a LOWER rating than the petrol Etios! Even compared like-to-like there is no significant performance boost justifying that premium. Plus, Etios is a roomy car in the back.

Didn't compare Cruze vs Optra Magnum, Elantra vs Verna etc. since the generational issue arises.

Last edited by noopster : 29th June 2012 at 17:53.
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Old 29th June 2012, 19:48   #87
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
Here is a small comparison I did, highlighting what you get and what you don't for the premium you pay.
Attachment 948854

Did it in a hurry so some points may have been missed out. Prices are indicative (got them from carwale's ready reckoner) and do not include discounts etc.
Thanks Noops. This is quite helpful.
Just a couple of points:
1) Jetta v/s Vento: Petrol version is available now. That doesn't change anything though
2) Civic v/s City: I guess you meant to say 'Discs all around'
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Old 30th June 2012, 13:09   #88
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Just the dilemma I went through over the last few months. I was looking to replace my 7 year old Honda city. I did a lot of research / test drives / visits to dealers. I was unable to find any compelling reason to gradute to the D1 segment.

After all the research , I finally bought the 2012 Honda City, spent a little on a few gadgets ( touch screen head set, GPS etc.) and finally got the best bang for the buck that I think very few D1 cars would be able to match.

I also think that D1 segment is affected by the addtional taxes / excise duties. Higher engine capacities (> 1500cc?) immediately mean that they fall into the 27% excise duty slab. In addition many states have substantially higher registration charges for cars having a showroom price greater than 10 lakhs. The combined effect of these two levies sometimes add another 1-1.5 lakhs for the D1 segment cars.
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Old 30th June 2012, 15:29   #89
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster View Post
Here is a small comparison I did, highlighting what you get and what you don't for the premium you pay.
Thanks for the comparison, it's an eye-opener. However, I think the Altis-Etios comparison isn't fair because of their respective positioning in the market. Etios is basically an entry-level sedan and probably not in the same league as Vento/Verna/Rapid - hence the % price difference is also much larger than in other comparisons.
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Old 1st July 2012, 09:35   #90
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Agreed, starrySky. I actually started doing an Altis v verna comparo but then that would not serve the purpose since they are offered by different manufacturers. Toyota offers etios in the C1 segment and Altis in the D1 which may actually make a lot of sense since they are targeting a bigger chunk of the market overall! But overall can't help but think that a C2 option would serve them well.
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